"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1992

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Originally Posted by justpassedu 

Thank you exact answer i was looking for and i greatly appreciate it . Now while the audyssey setup did set up the speakers at 50hz , i have to admit they sound pretty good to me , i have heard no distortion and i usually listen at a volume of about 50-60 on the onkyo 616 receiver . i have not heard much bass coming from the sub , i believe i may be hearing a bit more coming from the sony's , i could be wrong . the sub i have is the polk audio psw108 - http://www.polkaudio.com/products/psw108

As asere says, that sub isn't exactly over-endowed with power or the ability to dig deep. Ultimately, let your ears be the judge and go with what sounds best to you. Your next upgrade would be a truly competent sub IMO - maybe something from the SVS range for example. Follow that with a speaker upgrade. It is worth checking out the classified ads to see if there are some good used bargains around - that can save you a lot of $$$.

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Originally Posted by sdrucker 

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

I can't see how a built-in sub can compete with a good separate sub. There are also various other arguments against built-in subs - the most important probably being that it is not possible to position the sub at the best place in the room for the bass because the built-in sub has to be, by definition, positioned at the place where the main speakers are. Given that those speakers have been placed for good imaging etc, it is most unlikely that that is also the best place for the subwoofer(s). Also, with a built-in sub, it is impossible to make the decision to upgrade the sub alone - one would have to replace the mains which could easily be entirely satisfactory in other ways. Even in a two-channel system, I would far prefer to use speakers which excelled down to 80Hz or so and then hand over the heavy bass lifting to one or more capable subs. There are no (main) speakers made that have the bass capability of my dual Submersives, nor the freedom of placement - and this also applies to many other competent subs too. 

So yes, if I had the speakers in question, I would treat them as 'normal' speakers and cross them over at 60/80/100Hz (after testing which is sonically best) and let my subs handle the bass. In that sense, they would be good main speakers and the usual Audyssey setup considerations would apply.

You couldn't be more right: the built-in subs of the BP or Mythos ST/STS line are only 'competitive' with real subs if you have a small room where you can't have real subs, don't care about reaching down beyond the 30-40 Hz range, or strike it lucky with room placement that supports having the subs in the front of the room (which as you point out is unlikely). And you're allergic to the measurement rabbit hole . You have to start with these as 'full range' speakers and forget they're 'subs'.

Having said that, the real value of powered speakers IMO is the ability to control on-board volume via level matching for the powered section prior to Audyssey runs, which allows somewhat more power to the mid-bass between the crossover from bass management and the true mid-range than you might get from a non-powered speaker. But even so, there's a certain black box element to how the bass radiators in these speakers help you there with harmonics; I once found a review of GoldenEar towers (similar construction approach, designed by Sandy Gross that did the Mythos ST/STS line when he ran DefTech) that suggested there's a natural drop at 150 Hzish, that could only be compensated for by having more sub gain and SPL at the 80 Hzish region. DefTech is pretty fuzzy about how this exactly works, but my guess is that since Audyssey EQs to the -3db point of the speaker, there's a gentle slope from below the crossover to points about the crossover that help you on that front. So getting the right 'blend' of subs and speakers is indeed tricky.

Of course, IME even with three powered speakers (Mythos ST fronts and a CS-8080 HD center) and two HSU subs in my own case, you're somewhat overpaying to get this capability vs. speakers that might do better in the 80 to 200 Hz range. However, the overall quality of the BP/Mythos line is worth the money as a whole IMO. Just keep in mind that in an optimal world, you're not buying them to be subs.

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All good points. Personally, I just can't understand why, these days, anyone bothers with speakers that purport to go below 80Hz (I am speaking generally not referencing the DefTechs). It is so much easier to design a speaker that only needs to work down to 80Hz or so than it is to design a "full range" speaker and the former is likely to be a lot less expensive too. Couple it with a competent sub and you can have a speaker system that easily delivers from 20Hz to 20KHz without problems. Using components designed and built for their particular duties just seems to make more sense to me. 

I know that in the 'old days', when we using stereo pairs of speakers, things were thought of differently, but nowadays the idea of using speakers that handle 80Hz upwards and a sub for the frequencies below that is so well-known that it surprises me anyone bothers paying all that extra cash for so-called 'full range' speakers (which are usually anything but) and still they are not getting the very lowest frequencies, or certainly not with any worthwhile SPLs. 

I guess if the system is for music only, one can argue that there isn't all that much content below 40Hz - but the fact remains that there are still two octaves below that and many movies these days dig that deep routinely. So for HT use this would seem to point indubitably to a sat/sub system. And if you have it for movies, then you may as well use it for music too. Just thinking out loud while we wait for someone with Audyssey-related issues to drop by.

Quote:

Originally Posted by truwarrior22 



Well maybe this is my issue..Is that dip at 50hz -3 and causing Audyssey to cross it over? Blue line is Audyssey bypass, purple is Audyssey flat enabled. I know the subs are a bit hot, but I get prettu much the same results if the are a lower.

• Whether you have actual sub(s) or are just using your BP's built-in section as subs (if so, with LFE, I take it?)
• How you have the on-board gain and trim?
• Are the BP powered and non-powered sections level matched?
• Last, but not least, the crossover for the BP mains

Quote:

Originally Posted by justpassedu 

Id say the room is about 16ft x 16ft not so big , i did notice that i dont hear much bass coming from the sub . i just bought the sub and polk audio speakers as a package , got a really good deal , i am on a huge budget , just trying to upgrade from my htib for now , i know i got a decent receiver(onkyo616) so speakers and sub upgrade will come in the future , for now i have a small room and my $ needs to be spent on other things. I am pretty happy , i got the polk audio tl1900 system that comes with that sub for $150 and the 2 sony floorstanding speakers(sf6000) were $130 shipped for both plus about $400 for the receiver so it happened to be a decent deal and i can now run 7.1 , i mostly watch movies and some tv with ocassional gaming and 3d blu rays. So tonight i will try 80hz for the fronts , all the polks are set at 120hz and i believe the sub is at 120hz aswell. DOes this all sound ok ? should i keep the 50hz that audyssey eq'ed the fronts at? also noticed that the two polks on the side eq'ed to 150hz while the same speakers i have set up as my rears eq'ed to 120hz so i changed the sides to 120hz also.

c)6.   Why is Audyssey setting different crossovers for my identical speakers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdrucker 

Quote:

Originally Posted by truwarrior22 



Well maybe this is my issue..Is that dip at 50hz -3 and causing Audyssey to cross it over? Blue line is Audyssey bypass, purple is Audyssey flat enabled. I know the subs are a bit hot, but I get prettu much the same results if the are a lower.

Maybe it's buried somewhere in the thread, but could you give more details? I'd be interested in:

• Whether you have actual sub(s) or are just using your BP's built-in section as subs (if so, with LFE, I take it?)
• How you have the on-board gain and trim?
• Are the BP powered and non-powered sections level matched?
• Last, but not least, the crossover for the BP mains

That might help me or one of the real gurus on the thread (Keith, are you still up:p?) think about the advice you can try.

I don't know about 'guru' status, Stuart, but I generally keep out of discussions that involve speakers with built-in powered subs. Mainly because I don't know all that much about them and, from a purely personal POV only, would never, ever buy speakers that even pretended to dig much deeper than 60-80Hz, let alone used a powered internal sub to help in that regard. As I said before, in the days of totally banging subs and smaller, cheaper, easier-to-design satellite speakers, I just don't see the point.  HST, those who have such speakers have them, and probably want to keep them, and they deserve a good answer to their queries - I'm just not the person to give them that answer. You seem to be doing a great job with the OP anyway!

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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 

 Does anyone have any links for learning how to use REW?

Follow the link in my sig. A bunch of us are embarking on learning REW, using the latest simplified version that enables connection with just a USB mic and a HDMI cable. There is also a terrific REW guide being developed and you can download it from that thread.

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Originally Posted by Theresa 

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

I don't know about 'guru' status, Stuart, but I generally keep out of discussions that involve speakers with built-in powered subs. Mainly because I don't know all that much about them and, from a purely personal POV only, would never, ever buy speakers that even pretended to dig much deeper than 60-80Hz, let alone used a powered internal sub to help in that regard. As I said before, in the days of totally banging subs and smaller, cheaper, easier-to-design satellite speakers, I just don't see the point.  HST, those who have such speakers have them, and probably want to keep them, and they deserve a good answer to their queries - I'm just not the person to give them that answer. You seem to be doing a great job with the OP anyway!

Yes, I would never buy a full range speaker that claims to integrate a sub. Separate subs are just so much more flexible. I would perhaps consider a three way speaker with a built in passive woofer but that's a whole different animal and I would use it with a sub.

Agreed. When I look at my subs and their dual 15 inch drivers, huge amps and substantial cabinetry, it just seems obvious to me that I will never encounter a regular speaker that can even hope to deliver the same quality and amount of bass. And that is to ignore the placement problems when trying to get the main speakers in the right place for soundstage and imagery and the subs in the right place for optimum interaction with the room and its modes. Life has moved on from the 70s and subs are an accepted fact of audio life these days, thankfully!  As Stuart said earlier, as we learn more, we understand more. (I just checked - he actually said "Our thinking evolves with our experience" which is a better way of putting it than I just did).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theresa 

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

Agreed. When I look at my subs and their dual 15 inch drivers, huge amps and substantial cabinetry, it just seems obvious to me that I will never encounter a regular speaker that can even hope to deliver the same quality and amount of bass. And that is to ignore the placement problems when trying to get the main speakers in the right place for soundstage and imagery and the subs in the right place for optimum interaction with the room and its modes. Life has moved on from the 70s and subs are an accepted fact of audio life these days, thankfully!  As Stuart said earlier, as we learn more, we understand more. (I just checked - he actually said "Our thinking evolves with our experience" which is a better way of putting it than I just did).

I remember AR9s fondly, their woofers were close to subs but as you say we have evolved. You have extra-special subs but even smaller less capable subs such as mine do far better than integrated one's could, if not for any reason other than their size.

Yes, I had a pair of Kef 107/2 speakers that had two 10 inch drivers each and a form of active EQ which Kef called "Kube". They could allegedly go to 20Hz flat. They were also, at the time (late 80s or early 90s) vastly expensive. They were fabulous speakers but they still suffered the unavoidable problem of having the bass drivers located in the same place as the other drivers. At the time I knew nothing at all about the impact of the room on the SQ so I fiddled about, moving these huge and heavy speakers around until they 'sounded good'. The majority of the bulk of the speakers was for the bass drivers - the mid-range and tweeters were housed in a swivelling, separate enclosure on top of the main enclosure and measured about 12 inches high - so if separate subs had been the order of the day, I could have had all of the rest of the 107/2 experience from two small bookshelf units and a pair of subs, placed optimally. It is much easier to hide the subs than the mains of course so there is also a big benefit there too for those without dedicated rooms - the physical size of the main speakers can be quite small if one only requires that they operate down to 100Hz. 

Here's what they looked like (with the KUBE unit too)...

Quote:

Originally Posted by truwarrior22 

So what speakers are the best for Audyssey and which ones are bad? Does KEF work well? Should the mids and tweeters be sealed, etc?

Audyssey doesn't care what speakers you use. Audyssey 'listens' to the way the speakers reproduce the test tones (chirps) in your room and sets the distance and levels and creates filters for the frequency range down to where there is a drop-off in SPL of 3dB (the F3 point).  Audyssey has no way of knowing, and cares less, if the tweeters (or other drivers) are this type or that type or made of green cheese - it just hears what the tweeter reproduces and matches that to its target curve by creating inverse filters. IOW, if there is a 3dB peak at 8Khz it will create a 3dB 'dip' at the same frequency so the result is 'flat'. This is a gross oversimplification but it is correct as far as it goes. Audyssey can create thousands of such filters in its aim to meet the target curve.

The discussion above is centred on speakers with powered bass drivers. These speakers are not all that common and they may, or may not, require special consideration when setting up. If you don't have this type of speaker you can safely ignore all the posts above which discuss it (unless you want to learn about the subject for the sake of learning of course). 

Bottom line: Audyssey works with any type of speaker because it isn't listening to speakers - it is listening to the sound the speakers make in the room they are placed in.

EDIT: Plus 1 to Selden's post which came in as I was typing mine.