"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1993

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fischer 

Hi I have a question!

Is it just the sound level that determines how much you experience the surround speakers, or does Audyssey using some kind of algorithm to calculate how present and active surround speakers should be?
Why I ask is that I feel that I get slightly different results ,sometimes the surroundspeakers blends in seamlessly and sometimes they get more present and I have tried to experiment some times by simply raising or lowering the sound level but do not feel that I reach the same result, so how does it actually work?

If you are referring to Dynamic EQ, then the FAQ answer, here, will help:

g)2.   What is Dynamic EQ?

Also, be aware that all movies are mixed differently - some will make more use of the surrounds than others, some will use the surrounds in different ways. Some mixes place very discreet sounds in the surround channels (gun shots etc) while others use them for ambience effects only. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' way. What is important is that you hear what the mixer intended and, to this end, Audyssey sets the surround channels to the correct distances (delays) and levels during the calibration. Because movies are mixed at 'reference level' (see below) the result will only sound correct when played back at reference level - and this is where Dynamic EQ comes in, to recreate the 'reference experience' at listening levels below reference (which is where most people listen).

a)3.   I keep reading about Reference Level'. What is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdrucker 

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

The discussion above is centred on speakers with powered bass drivers. These speakers are not all that common and they may, or may not, require special consideration when setting up. If you don't have this type of speaker you can safely ignore all the posts above which discuss it (unless you want to learn about the subject for the sake of learning of course). 

Well, they're DefTech's claim to fame. Or were, back in the late 1990's and 2000's.

A couple of comments before we wrap up this sidebar - which you may choose to ignore if powered mains aren't relevant to you or not of educational interest:
IMO, the issue with powered speakers that we've been discussing is that by and large, they were designed for a time before serious electronic room correction was in the mainstream. Even then, Pioneer MCACC doesn't EQ low bass (< 63 Hz), and Audyssey itself didn't gain its competitive advantage with subwoofers until XT (particularly XT32, circa 2010) and Sub EQ were introduced. My own DefTech Mythos ST were introduced in 2006-7. And the marketing advantage of powered speakers is that you supposedly can avoid the need for a separate subwoofer; industry reviews touted the convenience of avoiding issues with room treatments and sub placement. Plus they sound darn good regardless, especially for two-channel music.

Of course, back then, who was running around using OmniMic or REW to test frequency response on laptops, run waterfalls or ETC graphs, and worry about 0 vs. 90 degree mic placement? The technology didn't exist for consumers beyond sound engineers and the 'bleeding edge' folks that did DIY to build their own speakers or treatments. You know who you are .

So, you'd get a bench test like this one, and the structural weaknesses of the speaker would appear obvious to us now, but less so back in the day in the midst of a general rave review:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/test-bench-definitive-technology-mythos-st-loudspeakers

Seeing this now in 2013, it's even more evidence for why you don't want to run these speakers as Large or use them as Small with the powered section being the 'sub' on LFE, with a - 3db point at 38 Hz. And I've seen that 150 Hz issue they cite. Certainly DefTech prefers to avoid the issue by recommending no use of room correction to have the speakers work as designed (after all, it defeats the positioning as AIO speaker/sub combos). But as Keith says, Audyssey doesn't know or care that you have tweeters or woofers that are anything other than part of a full response capability of that speaker. They might as well be green cheese (or my own favorite, hummus) for all it knows! But is it worth the tradeoff of no room correction? No way!But they do require more work to set up, which is the labor of love/YMMV part. However, so's anything else once you're in the rabbit hole.

At least in my own experience, I found that the level matching of powered/non-powered parts of the speaker (run BEFORE Audyssey with the temporary LFE connection and cable swapping) helps on the structural issues. However, what 'really' helped in own system was something that goes against the protocol for post-Audyssey assessment of testing L/R vs. L/C/R with subs (waterfall aside): it's having all three front speakers as effective 'mid-bass' modules, to handle frequency response. But for the overall sound I get, I wouldn't trade my powered Mythos for anything in the world, now that I've had them for over two years, unless I was reallly in a teardown/do it over mode. But there's better ways to spend time and money IMO once you have a DefTech type speaker, like better subs, an AVR with XT32 (+ Pro), and getting the most out of your room.

I wlll say that for those of you coming to the Audyssey thread and asking about the issues, you should count yourself lucky. When I started using Audyssey, there were plenty of folks on the Mythos ST and MCACC (or AS-EQ1) threads that used a powered speaker/sub/sub EQ combo, but very little discussion of how they did equalization.

One last thing before moving on: the 'level matching' didn't really make much difference in my Denon 4311's post-Audyssey crossover settings as such: I always get "Large" in consumer XT32, and "Large", 40, 60 , and 80 Hz as my suggestions in Pro (the exact order of 40/60/80 somewhat randomly). Where it makes a difference is post-Audyssey assessment for the crossover region, particularly for the distance tweak.

Stuart, this is very useful stuff (to those with speakers with powered subwoofers). Do you think you might care to translate the above post into a FAQ Q&A?  If so, I will be very happy to include it in the FAQ - I am sure it will crop up from time to time and it would be good t have the knowledge you have gained 'all in one place'. The Q could be something like "How do I set up Audyssey when using speakers with powered subwoofers built-in?". If you don't have the time (or indeed the inclination) no worries...

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdrucker 

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

I don't know about 'guru' status, Stuart, but I generally keep out of discussions that involve speakers with built-in powered subs. Mainly because I don't know all that much about them and, from a purely personal POV only, would never, ever buy speakers that even pretended to dig much deeper than 60-80Hz, let alone used a powered internal sub to help in that regard. As I said before, in the days of totally banging subs and smaller, cheaper, easier-to-design satellite speakers, I just don't see the point.  HST, those who have such speakers have them, and probably want to keep them, and they deserve a good answer to their queries - I'm just not the person to give them that answer. You seem to be doing a great job with the OP anyway!

Hey, you guys trained me well . I won't claim to have 'the last word in audio' , but having the example of people like the absent ccotenj and you folks on the Pro thread, I've tried to learn something. Even if I'm not as far down the rabbit hole of 'audio nirvana' as some of you guys can go. Just wait til I show you my room on the REW thread....surround placement is anything but ideal, but we don't have much choice there.

:)  I am assigning you Official Guru Status on speakers with powered subs built in - see my last post to you :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spaceman 


And finally, my only graphic display in my theater is the screen, so to view the Audyssey menus during the test, I had to keep my projector on. While it is fairly quiet and I had it on the low bulb setting, I know Audyssey still picked it up. What do you guys do in this situation? Should I bring in a tv and park it behind my seating during the test?
 

JD has answered your questions thoroughly. I'd just add that I wouldn't over-worry about the fan noise from the PJ at this stage. If Audyssey detects ambient noise is too high it will alert you and I am assuming that didn't happen or you would have mentioned it. Audyssey can differentiate between ambient noise, like the PJ fan, and its own chirps (or it wouldn't be able to alert you to it) by, I am assuming, listening to the ambient noise before running the chirps. This means that it can also ignore the ambient noise when measuring - it simply raises the level of the chirps until it has sufficient signal to noise ratio to make a good calibration. It does this three times and if the ambient noise is still too loud, it abandons the calibration and tells you so. 

HST, JDs idea of a small TV monitor just for the calibrations is exceptionally cool - and you could use it for other things too - adjustments and the like. If you had the gear in a separate closet like I do, this would be cooler still. In fact, I may well steal this idea and use it myself. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sojodave 

I'm running a Denon 1613 that has Audyssey Multieq. I just got a Klipsch RW-12D and I turned the volume down to -10 on the sub before I ran Audyssey. I first got a -9 on Audyssey so I repeated and kept turning it down until I got a -2. The volume on the sub was all the way down to -18. I know the virtues of Audyssey, but part of me died turning my new sub down so low. I tested with some Chris Botti Blu Ray disc and I turned the sub volume up slightly on the AVR. Should I wait until my ears get used to the new level or should I tinker with it until I get it dialed in?

Don't forget that the control on the sub isn't a volume control  - it is a gain control. Your sub isn't being 'restricted' in any way - it will still play as loud. It just means that it can reach max power from a smaller input that's all. 

-2 is a great sub trim level setting. Usual advice now is to listen for a few days and assess how you like the quality of the bass (rather than the quantity). If, after the few days, you feel you need louder bass, increase the trim level by a few dB. Many people do (me included). Make the adjustment at the AVR trim setting - don;'t touch the sub gain control once you are calibrated.

f)5.    Since I ran Audyssey everything sounds great - but where has my bass gone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdrucker 

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

Stuart, this is very useful stuff (to those with speakers with powered subwoofers). Do you think you might care to translate the above post into a FAQ Q&A?  If so, I will be very happy to include it in the FAQ - I am sure it will crop up from time to time and it would be good t have the knowledge you have gained 'all in one place'. The Q could be something like "How do I set up Audyssey when using speakers with powered subwoofers built-in?". If you don't have the time (or indeed the inclination) no worries...

I definitely have the inclination: the time's a different thing. I still owe AustinJerry the screenshots of getting 8-channel HDMI to work with Denon (I took them last night, just need to annotate them before posting them over the weekend).

If you don't mind, I might as well wait until I get the new UMM-6 mic to play nice with REW and measure it there (another thing on the weekend list to do LOL). Not that I think it makes much difference, but at least I'll have a 'proper' 90 degree calibration file and SPL reference to tune REW with, and I might as well do a quick and dirty three position run with Audyssey at the 'standard' woofer settings vs. the level matched ones to do a reference pre/post example with. My old examples date back to a somewhat different configuration where one of my subs was inadvertedly unplugged by a wandering Maltese, so I'd rather be 'current'.

Although to keep this from completely being strange to the layperson, I'll probably post at 1/6 or 1/12 smoothing here .

No problemo Stuart - if you do get the time, just PM me the copy for the answer to the Q and I will add it to the FAQ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TL5 

I'm about to order a marantz 8801 with XT32 - my first pre/pro with Audyssey. I have a concern regarding the calibration: I know the room needs to be quiet, but my JVC RS-1 projector is about 5 ft. above me at the MLP. It's not especially noisy, but will this ruin the calibration? I don't have another TV in the house to use temporarilly. I have read various things: that the room must be whisper quiet, and another that says Audyssey will tolerate a certain amount of ambient noise during the calibration. I have a Ratshack meter to test the decibel level and can report it here if that will help.

Thanks!

Look at post 59772 about 2 or 3 above yours.

Also look here:

b)2.   Why is Audyssey reporting 'Ambient Noise Too High'?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsandiego 

I have a question about Audyessy pro. I note in the FAQ's there is a comment not to change the crossover point from what what Audyessy selected or you lose the benefit of the special curve(s) generated by pro for the selected crossover point. If that is the case I am surprised as I thought all Audyessy setups were "slave" to the AVR's processing and curves-be they 6db, 12 db, 18 db or whatever rolloffs. What is the case? Second part is when Audyessy is turned off are the crossover curves strictly dictated by the AVR?

Thanks

Pro works differently to regular MultEQ. In Pro, Audyssey creates the filters AFTER the crossover selection has been made. So if you change them in the AVR, you upset that. The correct way to change XOs with pro is to reload the measurements, change the crossovers in Pro software, let Pro create new filters and then upload to the AVR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by djbluemax1 


Anyone ever measured to see if there's much difference in the result?


Max

Measured exactly what, Max?  I have measured just about everything, so the chances are good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samhain1 

I need some help with the AS-EQ1 as I hav just got one. I have connected it up to the yamaha Z11 and I am trying to run the auto eq system where i have put the yamaha mic into the pass through mic in and the cable from the passthrough out goes to the input on the amp which is for YPAO. When I try to start the auto test tones on the amp I get an error message on the amp saying E05 which stands for noise. It mist be noise from the SVS as the room is deathly quiet.

What am I doing wrong as I am supposed to be able to run this as the amp will set the levels for the speaker and then the EQ1 will take over the setting of the sub.

Thanks

Stu

It's been a while since I had my AS-EQ1.  It sounds like you have the mic cabled properly.  Are you sure the AS-EQ1 is in good working order?  You might want to take this conversation over to the AS-EQ1 thread, where you may get more advice.