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post #59791 of 62263
2/9/13 at 1:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Measured to see what the differences were between using Audyssey Pro's first recommended crossover, and using the 2nd crossover recommendation as well as the difference between using the 2nd recommended crossover and then allowing Pro to calculate specific filters for that crossover vs just changing it as we do with regular XT32.

Eg.

If the L&R are capable of low frequency extension and Audyssey returns a 40Hz XO. Has anyone measured the results from using that 40Hz XO vs selecting the 40Hz XO and allowing Pro to calculate filters based on the 40Hz XO and then changing it to an 80Hz XO (as we might with regular XT32) vs selecting an 80Hz XO and allowing Pro to calculate specific filters for the 80Hz XO.


Max

I use Pro with XT32 and my crossover for all speakers is 60 hz with plenty of bass via the subs. No need to run hot subs and the SQ is excellent.
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post #59792 of 62263
2/9/13 at 2:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TL5 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Look at post 59772 about 2 or 3 above yours.

Also look here:

b)2.   Why is Audyssey reporting 'Ambient Noise Too High'?


Thanks - So basically It'll either calibrate or it won't - I won't get a compromised calibration, just none at all if there is excessive noise, correct?

 

Correct.

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post #59793 of 62263
2/9/13 at 2:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsandiego View Post

I have a question about Audyessy pro. I note in the FAQ's there is a comment not to change the crossover point from what what Audyessy selected or you lose the benefit of the special curve(s) generated by pro for the selected crossover point. If that is the case I am surprised as I thought all Audyessy setups were "slave" to the AVR's processing and curves-be they 6db, 12 db, 18 db or whatever rolloffs. What is the case? Second part is when Audyessy is turned off are the crossover curves strictly dictated by the AVR?


Thanks
Pro works differently to regular MultEQ. In Pro, Audyssey creates the filters AFTER the crossover selection has been made. So if you change them in the AVR, you upset that. The correct way to change XOs with pro is to reload the measurements, change the crossovers in Pro software, let Pro create new filters and then upload to the AVR.
Anyone ever measured to see if there's much difference in the result?


Max

 

Not me for sure. Jerry measures everything that moves and most things that don't - Jerry??

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post #59794 of 62263
2/9/13 at 2:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Kbarnes, I know you stated you don't comment much on powered towers but perhaps you could think about this in a logical way and comment with your experience. I have my towers crossed at 80hz and set to small. The built in crossovers send frequencies lower than 150-200hz to the built in subs and the higher frequencies to the midrange's and tweeter. So in this sense I am not asking the towers to dig deep and leaving that to my HSU VTF-15H sub. Rather I have the 15H digging deep, the towers subs from 80-150ish, then the rest to the mids and tweeters. I have ran Audyssey Multi EQ XT numerous times and it just treats them as capable full range speakers. I just then move the crossover up to 80 so my 15H can do the digging. Again I may get the Studio Monitors soon and find another placement for the towers. Perhaps building a small platform and raise them up a little and use them for side surrounds?

 

Your method seems good to me, but I have no personal experience of this sort of speaker. I agree with you that Audyssey would treat them as full range speakers. Maybe the fact that the subs inside the speakers are powered is a red herring - isn’t all that is happening is that there are crossovers in your speakers, as in any, but your crossover is redirecting to a driver that has power instead of one that is passive?  From Audyssey's perspective, it won't even know that and will just 'listen' and EQ as normal. I think :) 

 

You say you are a little out of the time window for returns - have you asked your retailer if they would consider a return/exchange?  They might. If you want to swap them I mean. They sound like pretty good speakers - the only negative from my POV is that when you have a good sub you have no real need for speakers that dig very deep, so you will save money by buying speakers that are meant to be used with a sub.

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post #59795 of 62263
2/9/13 at 2:47am
There's no harm and perhaps benefits to having a woofer handle the 80Hz-250Hz range. It allows the midrange to handle just midrange frequencies rather than being strained by 80Hz content. The fact that this woofer is also powered shouldn't make any difference to Audyssey and should provide some benefits such as relieving the regular amp of midbass duties.
Edited by Theresa - 2/9/13 at 3:33am
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post #59796 of 62263
2/9/13 at 4:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Sorry about getting in on the conversation late. I had a 5 hour drive to make for work. We learn as we go along...Unfortunately I can't return my 8060 powered DT towers as I am a few weeks out of the time period. Or else I probably would considering what I have learned and buy some of DT's studio monitors instead. Cheaper obviously because it doesn't have the built in amp and sub. They simply have the passive radiators on top. I may still get the Studio Monitor 65's for front L/R and perhaps use the towers as wides or even surrounds. Or sell...

Kbarnes, I know you stated you don't comment much on powered towers but perhaps you could think about this in a logical way and comment with your experience. I have my towers crossed at 80hz and set to small. The built in crossovers send frequencies lower than 150-200hz to the built in subs and the higher frequencies to the midrange's and tweeter. So in this sense I am not asking the towers to dig deep and leaving that to my HSU VTF-15H sub. Rather I have the 15H digging deep, the towers subs from 80-150ish, then the rest to the mids and tweeters. I have ran Audyssey Multi EQ XT numerous times and it just treats them as capable full range speakers. I just then move the crossover up to 80 so my 15H can do the digging. Again I may get the Studio Monitors soon and find another placement for the towers. Perhaps building a small platform and raise them up a little and use them for side surrounds?

You can look back through this thread and see most of us with these kind of speakers are hooked up exactly this way and enjoying the power assist in the 80-130 Hz range especially at higher levels. For some reason they keep talking about using them full range or hooking up LFE to them which almost nobody does. I would keep the speakers and continue using them exactly as you are.
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post #59797 of 62263
2/9/13 at 4:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

You can look back through this thread and see most of us with these kind of speakers are hooked up exactly this way and enjoying the power assist in the 80-130 Hz range especially at higher levels. For some reason they keep talking about using them full range or hooking up LFE to them which almost nobody does. I would keep the speakers and continue using them exactly as you are.

+1
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post #59798 of 62263
2/9/13 at 6:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by samhain1 View Post

I need some help with the AS-EQ1 as I hav just got one. I have connected it up to the yamaha Z11 and I am trying to run the auto eq system where i have put the yamaha mic into the pass through mic in and the cable from the passthrough out goes to the input on the amp which is for YPAO. When I try to start the auto test tones on the amp I get an error message on the amp saying E05 which stands for noise. It mist be noise from the SVS as the room is deathly quiet.

What am I doing wrong as I am supposed to be able to run this as the amp will set the levels for the speaker and then the EQ1 will take over the setting of the sub.

Thanks

Stu

I have an AS-EQ1 and I had troubles setting it up and I called their support staff and they were great. Provided me guidance on what I was doing wrong and also showed me a nice way to work it with Audyssey.

I would just give them a call. If I remember correctly I think they are open Saturday for their Tech Support.
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post #59799 of 62263
2/9/13 at 9:02am
Actually the orginal question had to do with the crossover curves or slopes. I wondered if Pro creates a unique curve to go with the selected crossover point ( in my case 70 hz ) or it still defaults to whatever curve\slope that is resident in the AVR/ ( NAD T785 HD ) ?
I do note that messing with anything post pro calibration throws off the calibration of Dynamic EQ. I should say that I have no center channel so the phantom center effect for voices is critical-after my dealer ran Pro setup my system sounds fantastic. Thanks.
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post #59800 of 62263
2/9/13 at 9:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post


Measured to see what the differences were between using Audyssey Pro's first recommended crossover, and using the 2nd crossover recommendation as well as the difference between using the 2nd recommended crossover and then allowing Pro to calculate specific filters for that crossover vs just changing it as we do with regular XT32.

Eg.

If the L&R are capable of low frequency extension and Audyssey returns a 40Hz XO. Has anyone measured the results from using that 40Hz XO vs selecting the 40Hz XO and allowing Pro to calculate filters based on the 40Hz XO and then changing it to an 80Hz XO (as we might with regular XT32) vs selecting an 80Hz XO and allowing Pro to calculate specific filters for the 80Hz XO.


Max

 

Thanks for the clarification. 

 

Measure "...what the differences were between using Audyssey Pro's first recommended crossover, and using the 2nd crossover recommendation".  I have measured this on several occasions when trying to determine whether the crossover selection had a measurable difference on a post-calibration measurement.  I was never able to see any measurable differences when selecting various Pro-recommended crossovers.

 

Measure "...allowing Pro to calculate filters based on the 40Hz XO and then changing it to an 80Hz XO (as we might with regular XT32) vs selecting an 80Hz XO and allowing Pro to calculate specific filters for the 80Hz XO".  I have not measured this specifically.  However, there was a discussion with Chris on Ask Audyssey about what the effect was if crossovers are changed outside of the Pro software, and the answer is contained in this post from the Pro thread.  For this reason, I never select different crossovers without re-loading the measurements in Pro, so there has never been an opportunity to measure whether the differences are indeed measurable.  I know at least one participant in this thread who has changed the crossovers outside of Pro to a value that wasn't even offered as a choice in Pro (Keith, I believe, when he selected 100Hz for his Submersives).  Keith, did you measure any differences?

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post #59801 of 62263
2/9/13 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I know at least one participant in this thread who has changed the crossovers outside of Pro to a value that wasn't even offered as a choice in Pro (Keith, I believe, when he selected 100Hz for his Submersives).  Keith, did you measure any differences?

 

I did indeed, Jerry. I wanted a 100Hz XO and Pro didn't offer it to me for my mains (but did for my centre). So I just gritted my teeth, opened the AVP menu and just darned well DID IT. Afterwards, I liked the result so I left it that way and it has been that way since. I am afraid I didn't measure it. Next time I get my gear out I will take a measurement with REW. I am contemplating adding two more bass traps at the back of the room, so I will need to re-run Pro anyway.

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post #59802 of 62263
2/9/13 at 1:13pm
Just curious. My SPL meter was reading 65 db. I havn't touched at since Audyssey set it at -3db. Shouldn't it be about 75db?
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post #59803 of 62263
2/9/13 at 1:38pm
Is it possible to tweak the audyssey curve once it is run. I have some high frequency hearing loss and Im concerned audyssey may do 'too good' of a job flattening the signal. I am looking at purchasing the onkyo 818.
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post #59804 of 62263
2/9/13 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by handsaw View Post

Is it possible to tweak the audyssey curve once it is run. I have some high frequency hearing loss and Im concerned audyssey may do 'too good' of a job flattening the signal. I am looking at purchasing the onkyo 818.

 

You will have a choice of Audyssey Cinema or Audyssey Music on the Onkyo, I believe.  The Music setting uses a less aggressive HF roll-off, and should sound brighter to your ears.

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post #59805 of 62263
2/9/13 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

I did indeed, Jerry. I wanted a 100Hz XO and Pro didn't offer it to me for my mains (but did for my centre). So I just gritted my teeth, opened the AVP menu and just darned well DID IT. Afterwards, I liked the result so I left it that way and it has been that way since. I am afraid I didn't measure it. Next time I get my gear out I will take a measurement with REW. I am contemplating adding two more bass traps at the back of the room, so I will need to re-run Pro anyway.

 

I shall report you to the Audyssey Oversight Committee, and I suspect your license will be immediately revoked.  Good luck using your Mini-DSP!

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post #59806 of 62263
2/9/13 at 2:12pm
Ok, I took down my height speakers and am left with a measly 5.1 setup...
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post #59807 of 62263
2/9/13 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I shall report you to the Audyssey Oversight Committee, and I suspect your license will be immediately revoked.  Good luck using your Mini-DSP!

He's in deep doo doo if they have drone technology.
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post #59808 of 62263
2/9/13 at 2:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I shall report you to the Audyssey Oversight Committee, and I suspect your license will be immediately revoked.  Good luck using your Mini-DSP!

Maybe he could plea-bargain and be sentenced to using an AS-EQ1 with an Outlaw pre-pro eek.gif
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post #59809 of 62263
2/9/13 at 2:32pm
^not sure why the rest of my post didn't post. Ran Audyssey again with my 3313 and Definitive Technology BP8060ST towers (powered subs yes), CS8040 center, SR8040 surrounds and a HSU VTF-15H subwoofer. I set the subs on the towers at 75db prior to running Audyssey. The HSU was at 65 db but I left it there because I knew it would give me a -3.0db level when done which it did. Of course it set the towers to large which I changed to small and 80hz. I left center at 80hz and surrounds at 200hz.

I believe this is the way to set these powered towers. Mine have built in crossovers that cut off around 150hz from the midrange drivers and send to the powered subwoofer. So essentially these powered subs have become very capable midbass subs from 80hz-150hz. You can really notice the difference when you turn of the HSU sub and hear from 80hz and up. I believe this offers a nice blending overall. Perhaps better than if I had two studio monitors? I don't know for sure but I think this is the way definitively to tune and set these towers.
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post #59810 of 62263
2/9/13 at 3:00pm
I think you're right.
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post #59811 of 62263
2/9/13 at 5:14pm
Quote:
^not sure why the rest of my post didn't post. Ran Audyssey again with my 3313 and Definitive Technology BP8060ST towers (powered subs yes), CS8040 center, SR8040 surrounds and a HSU VTF-15H subwoofer. I set the subs on the towers at 75db prior to running Audyssey. The HSU was at 65 db but I left it there because I knew it would give me a -3.0db level when done which it did. Of course it set the towers to large which I changed to small and 80hz. I left center at 80hz and surrounds at 200hz.

I believe this is the way to set these powered towers. Mine have built in crossovers that cut off around 150hz from the midrange drivers and send to the powered subwoofer. So essentially these powered subs have become very capable midbass subs from 80hz-150hz. You can really notice the difference when you turn of the HSU sub and hear from 80hz and up. I believe this offers a nice blending overall. Perhaps better than if I had two studio monitors? I don't know for sure but I think this is the way definitively to tune and set these towers.

On the Def Tech forum one of the guys said Chet from Definitive Technology told him the internal crossovers were 80hz. This was a 7001 which is an older model. Considering I didn't get that far in my knowledge when I purchased my speakers I will consider mine a lucky draw as the internal crossover is higher. Surely proved as I set the crossovers at 80hz and still had a bit of action from the built in subs.
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post #59812 of 62263
2/9/13 at 5:33pm

Ok, I level matched my mids at 400hz to the subs at 40hz. Worked ok, but not great. Audyssey crossover my mains at 250hz and I had a hole between the mids and HGS-18 still. My HGS-18 was playing to 200hz which made it some what identifiable in the room. I have an idea...What if I bi wire my mains and put in a 100hz bass blocker for the mids and woofer? This way I can turn up the volume on the sub to get better mid bass but then the HGS18 should pick up the low end? Seems like when I use the crossover in the AVR it doesn't slope down fast enough...

Attached is a graph with the purple being the BP7000SC full range with the volume at 50% and green just the mids. This is NOT the current setup, I just posted it so you can see the mids roll off and how the sub pick up. I forgot to save the latest graph hwith the new Audyssey calibration.
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post #59813 of 62263
2/10/13 at 1:26am
I think I really need two velodyne sms-1 to operate the woofer as mid bass drivers then run Audyssey, expensive!
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post #59814 of 62263
2/10/13 at 1:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I know at least one participant in this thread who has changed the crossovers outside of Pro to a value that wasn't even offered as a choice in Pro (Keith, I believe, when he selected 100Hz for his Submersives).  Keith, did you measure any differences?

I did indeed, Jerry. I wanted a 100Hz XO and Pro didn't offer it to me for my mains (but did for my centre). So I just gritted my teeth, opened the AVP menu and just darned well DID IT. Afterwards, I liked the result so I left it that way and it has been that way since. I am afraid I didn't measure it. Next time I get my gear out I will take a measurement with REW. I am contemplating adding two more bass traps at the back of the room, so I will need to re-run Pro anyway.
I was just curious, since it's touted so often as a feature in Pro, whether it's one of those features that is indiscernible. Plain old XT32 already provides pretty good crossover integration with one sub. 2 or more subs tend to require the delay tweak, but I'm hard pressed to see why the channel filters would differ much whether you're using a 40Hz or 80Hz crossover with 20Hz capable speakers.


Max
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post #59815 of 62263
2/10/13 at 2:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

I did indeed, Jerry. I wanted a 100Hz XO and Pro didn't offer it to me for my mains (but did for my centre). So I just gritted my teeth, opened the AVP menu and just darned well DID IT. Afterwards, I liked the result so I left it that way and it has been that way since. I am afraid I didn't measure it. Next time I get my gear out I will take a measurement with REW. I am contemplating adding two more bass traps at the back of the room, so I will need to re-run Pro anyway.

 

I shall report you to the Audyssey Oversight Committee, and I suspect your license will be immediately revoked.  Good luck using your Mini-DSP!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

He's in deep doo doo if they have drone technology.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Maybe he could plea-bargain and be sentenced to using an AS-EQ1 with an Outlaw pre-pro eek.gif

 

LOL. I am guilty as charged and plead insanity as mitigation. On all other matters  am taking the Fifth.

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post #59816 of 62263
2/10/13 at 2:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

^not sure why the rest of my post didn't post. Ran Audyssey again with my 3313 and Definitive Technology BP8060ST towers (powered subs yes), CS8040 center, SR8040 surrounds and a HSU VTF-15H subwoofer. I set the subs on the towers at 75db prior to running Audyssey. The HSU was at 65 db but I left it there because I knew it would give me a -3.0db level when done which it did. Of course it set the towers to large which I changed to small and 80hz. I left center at 80hz and surrounds at 200hz.

I believe this is the way to set these powered towers. Mine have built in crossovers that cut off around 150hz from the midrange drivers and send to the powered subwoofer. So essentially these powered subs have become very capable midbass subs from 80hz-150hz. You can really notice the difference when you turn of the HSU sub and hear from 80hz and up. I believe this offers a nice blending overall. Perhaps better than if I had two studio monitors? I don't know for sure but I think this is the way definitively to tune and set these towers.

It does sound like a reasonable plan. And if the resultant SQ is good, then you are all done.

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post #59817 of 62263
2/10/13 at 2:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I know at least one participant in this thread who has changed the crossovers outside of Pro to a value that wasn't even offered as a choice in Pro (Keith, I believe, when he selected 100Hz for his Submersives).  Keith, did you measure any differences?

I did indeed, Jerry. I wanted a 100Hz XO and Pro didn't offer it to me for my mains (but did for my centre). So I just gritted my teeth, opened the AVP menu and just darned well DID IT. Afterwards, I liked the result so I left it that way and it has been that way since. I am afraid I didn't measure it. Next time I get my gear out I will take a measurement with REW. I am contemplating adding two more bass traps at the back of the room, so I will need to re-run Pro anyway.
I was just curious, since it's touted so often as a feature in Pro, whether it's one of those features that is indiscernible. Plain old XT32 already provides pretty good crossover integration with one sub. 2 or more subs tend to require the delay tweak, but I'm hard pressed to see why the channel filters would differ much whether you're using a 40Hz or 80Hz crossover with 20Hz capable speakers.


Max

 

I have to say that I cannot reliably claim to hear much/any difference when I change the crossovers in the AVR or in Pro.  By that I mean I can hear a difference between using 80Hz and 100Hz with my SubMs, but I cannot hear a difference between changing the XOs in Pro or the AVP. HST, Pro never offers me 100Hz for my Left and Right channels IIRC - certainly it hasn't since I have had the SubMs, which is the time when I wanted it. But I have experimented with various combinations of XO, changing sometimes in the AVP and sometimes by re-running Pro and doing it there. Whatever difference Pro is making by creating the filters after the XO has been chosen is subtle. All of this has only been verified by my ears - I haven't tried to run measurements on it. If I can’t actually hear any difference, it seems a bit pointless to measure it.

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post #59818 of 62263
2/10/13 at 3:01am
Actually, I think ill get the Minidsp. This should give me way more options and cheaper!
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post #59819 of 62263
2/10/13 at 4:47am
A miniDSP with a measurement system, such as REW and a mic or Omnimic, is incredibly flexible. With this combination you can make changes with miniDSP while seeing the effects with the measurement program. The thing is you need to have a pc hooked up to your a/v system.
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post #59820 of 62263
2/10/13 at 4:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

I think I really need two velodyne sms-1 to operate the woofer as mid bass drivers then run Audyssey, expensive!

Wouldn't you want to run Audyssey before equalizing/tweaking with the SMS-1s/minidsps?

If you run it afterwards, wouldn't it undo your SMS-1/minidsp correction?
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