"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1996

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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 

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I have a of bass management question. I know Audyssey says if you have a sub then your speakers are small. Is it bad to run double bass from your AVR/proccesor? For example setting powered towers to large and subwoofer yes. I know we are told not to do this but what exactly does this do the bass management? Why is it not a good idea? I am simply trying to understand why. Thanks all!

I'm just thinking if audyssey EQ'd them and set them to large then we know that it won't offset Audyssey's special EQ effects. I think it just sends the same bass frequencies to both the towers and the sub correct? If this is so does it take away from the dedicated sub? Like less bass if it is going to both towers and sub?

Batpig has given you a superb answer - you may also care to look at the FAQ, here:

f)7.    What is ‘LFE + Main’ or ‘Double Bass’ and should I use it?

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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 

For the sake of learning let me ask a few questions. Since Audyssey did the EQ work on the fronts and the sub how would they undo some of the work Audyssey has done. I mean if audyssey set the towers to large at first then it would be ok right? Or is it cancelled because of the LFE+main selection?

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First, the "double bass" is taking you away from "reference"

What is reference? 75db across the board?

For those using XT, the main impact of using double bass with Audyssey is explained in the FAQ answer I just linked to:

"Also, the XT and MultEQ versions of Audyssey apply more correction filters to the subwoofer frequencies. If the same frequencies are sent to the main speakers and the subwoofer at the same time, you will apply higher resolution filters to the same frequencies in the subwoofer and lower resolution filters to the same frequencies going to the front speakers. When the two low frequency sources are combined, we will have unpredictable results to say the least."

Double bass is just a bad idea. Audyssey campaigned for AVR manufacturers to remove it but they refused. It will cause potential phase cancellation issues, muddy or bloated bass, the issue mentioned above etc. Read the FAQ answer for a fuller explanation.

Reference is explained here:

a)3.   I keep reading about Reference Level'. What is it?

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Originally Posted by Skylinestar 

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

Batpig has given you a superb answer - you may also care to look at the FAQ, here:

f)7.    What is ‘LFE + Main’ or ‘Double Bass’ and should I use it?

Here's a quote from my Denon 3312 manual:

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Bass Setting : Set subwoofer and LFE signal range playback.
• LFE : The low range signal of the channel set to “Small” speaker size is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.
• LFE+Main : The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.

Select “LFE+Main” if you want the bass signals to always be produced from the subwoofer.

For Denon, setting LFE+Main is the correct thing to do.

Well you may have your own opinion on it but it is hardly the 'correct' thing to do, for the reasons given. Audyssey's advice is to never use it, the general consensus of every respected poster who has commented on it is to never use it. The person who knows as much, or more, about Denon than pretty much anyone, is baptig, and you can read his advice on it a few posts back.  If you prefer the sound, muddied bass, overblown bass, likely phase cancellation and all, that is your prerogative. But your preference doesn't make something 'correct'.

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Originally Posted by Theresa 

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Originally Posted by Skylinestar 

Here's a quote from my Denon 3312 manual:
For Denon, setting LFE+Main is the correct thing to do.

That quote just doesn't make sense and you should consider that there is a consensus among those understanding Audyssey and bass management that LFE+Main is a bad idea.

+1. "Select “LFE+Main” if you want the bass signals to always be produced from the subwoofer" is gibberish. The Denon manuals seem to have been translated by Google Translate - fortunately Denon aficianados have batpig's Denon-English Dictionary to rely on instead.

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Originally Posted by Skylinestar 

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Originally Posted by Theresa 

That quote just doesn't make sense and you should consider that there is a consensus among those understanding Audyssey and bass management that LFE+Main is a bad idea.

Are you saying that Denon is wrong?
Base on my understanding, Denon definition of LFE+Main is that subwoofer is playing LFE signal plus all the bass signals from the main speakers. Other AVR manufacturer could define that just the opposite way.

The Denon manual section you quoted doesn’t make sense so it could mean anything. It is patently not true to say that you need to select LFE+Main if you want the bass signals to be reproduced by the subwoofer. That is true for any meaning of 'bass signals'. If you set the main speakers to small, then the bass content below the chosen crossover is sent to the sub, and LFE is always sent to the sub. You don't need to engage double bass for that.

I suggest you read batpig's very thorough explanation a few posts back and the FAQ answer I linked earlier. Both of those are correct and explain it in normal English and not Jinglish.

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Originally Posted by Skylinestar 

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

Well you may have your own opinion on it but it is hardly the 'correct' thing to do, for the reasons given. Audyssey's advice is to never use it, the general consensus of every respected poster who has commented on it is to never use it. The person who knows as much, or more, about Denon than pretty much anyone, is baptig, and you can read his advice on it a few posts back.  If you prefer the sound, muddied bass, overblown bass, likely phase cancellation and all, that is your prerogative. But your preference doesn't make something 'correct'.

Perhaps Denon (Japs) and Audyssey (US) don't speak the same language?

I'm not sure of the older generation of AVR, like the legendary 4311 and all previous models. Perhaps Denon has renamed it (the meaning of LFE+Main) since XX12 series?

Whatever they mean, it isn’t the best practice to use LFE+Main in a properly bass-managed system.

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Originally Posted by JHAz 


Even though it's poorly worded. I'd agree that the "always play bass" is a bad translation simply because if you use normal bass management with the same crossover, the difference between LFE+main and "normal", for the subwoofer, is zero. Either way the sub gets the 0.1 channel and the redirected bass. It plays no more bass if the mains are also allowed to play what otherwise would be solely redirected to the sub.

JHAz is correct.  As long as all speakers are set to small, the two bass settings produce the same results with respect to the low frequencies.  This argument pops up every now and then until everyone realizes the settings make no difference unless speakers are set to "large".

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Originally Posted by mo949 

So I have been very happy with my Denon and probably mostly so due to having Audyssey MultiEQ. I'm only running a 5.1 setup with a lower end set of klipsch speakers and feel everything works great. I know it aint broke, but...

I keep wondering if I can get a pretty good deal on a receiver that's got MultiEQ XT, would I notice the difference?

I'd suggest that, if you can, you move right up to XT32. There is a substantial difference between XT and XT32 - see the FAQ for more details.  Currently the cheapest way into XT32 is the Onkyo 818 - it has been priced as low as $770 on special offer.

h)2.   What is the difference between the various versions of MultEQ?

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Originally Posted by asere 

I am going to run Audyssey because I got the new 12012 sub. Ken Kreisel told me to just do the Audyssey with one mic position at main listening position instead of the 6 positions and see what I think. I asked him why and he mentioned it is complicated to explain. Does anyone know why he suggested this?

Selden has given you a good, specific answer. For more background info, see here:

d)2.   Do I really need to use all the available Audyssey mic positions?