"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 2034

One can look to the literature. I've searched, and found nothing that shows any difference in the loudness contours based on the direction of the sound. The HRTFs change the sensitivity vs. frequency, but that is not what we are talking about here. Once you establish a given loudness of a tone in the inner ear, the loudness perception vs SPL tracks the same regardless of the direction.

The tests Audyssey conducted did not address this, so they do not conflict. Even so, they used those tests to come to that conclusion, and that is where the error was made.

I agree with that description.

Two lines are not played simoultaneously, but you also know that bp, eh?

Right, see beastaudio's quote above. It's the transient range of the PASSAGE that has been compressed at that frequency. Compression doesn't have to occur at only a given instant.

And is this error only know here at this thread or are the AVR makers working on correcting the errors by way of a firmware update?

Roger, please forgive me for the question, but are you really serious on this issue?

By using a multi-band compressor, so you only boost the sounds that are about to fall into inaudibility rather than boosting everything.

Does my Denon have such a thing inside? A compressor that boosts, eh?

How would it be able to accomplish what DEQ does without it?

Or whatever you call it. Batpig is right, it 's only semantics, isn't it?

No, it's an apparent inability or unwillingness to deal with reality. You can't have it both ways Feri: you can't extol the virtues of a technology that squeezes the dynamic range of certain sounds in order to prevent them from disappearing completely and simultaneously deny that such a thing is happening. Preventing parts of the soundtrack from becoming inaudible is a good thing.

AVR makers have nothing to do with it. I already raised the point with Chris K quite some time ago. Let's just say he was not interested.
Serious? Not sure I understand the question. I am serious enough about such things working correctly that I will not use DEQ. Nor DSX for that matter. Some folks say compression is a form of distortion. Now there's a good example.

 

Concurred.

If you a take it strictly even tone controls create a sort of distortion because any alteration of the original content is some sort of distortion in this sense.
You can't have it all but have to restrict it to those things which count.

 

He's not "expressing opinion", Feri. He is expressing fact. There's a difference you know. 

Last time I'll say this. For me, I would not call it compression, although I recognize it reduces the dynamic range in particular spots. I would not call it compression because you cannot do it with a compressor. A compressor can only be set to start compressing at and ABOVE some particular level in the signal. It can reduce the extent to which hotter signals get hotter. For example only allowing 1 dB louder for every 2 dB the incoming signal increases. Unless it's only functioning at the very very top of the dynamic range, it will unavoidably reduce the apparent overall loudness of the signal because you've taken off say 10 dB or so. Then you use make up volume to put the RMS value back where it belongs. Not what DEQ does at all. DYn Vol does something like this, at least in part. I realize it's essentially just me, but i would not call what DEQ does compression, nor woul I call judiciously adjusting the faders on the stereo output bus of a mixer to keep a very quiet part of aparticular song as loud as the mixer thinks it ought to be compression. Because it cannot be done with a compressor.

In other words given that in mixing a movie or music every single channel of sound may be adjusted individually by hand (as well as the master output level) more or less constantly throughout the track being mixed, it seems to me inappropriate to call every change in a volume level "compression." Because it's not what people call level adjustment when mixing. Just doesn't fit to me.

Done.
\Minor amedment. Comparisons to working the volume control for a track or the stereo buss (which I brought my own self) are a little off track, at least for DEQ actions other than adjusting the surrounds. DEQ really is like turning up the bass control (and the treble a little less). The slope of the DEQ virtual bass knob is likely different from any standard EQ circuit, and changes depending on master volume and content levels, but it's still turning up the bass knob. Which may or may not actually affect measured SPL of what you are listening to to any significant degree (because there are quite a few octaves of content happening at the same time).
Edited by JHAz - 3/21/13 at 9:04am

We’ve had half a dozen pages on this topic now, like we did last time it came up. It does seem fairly pointless - those who dislike what DEQ does (eg Roger) can turn it off; those who love what it does (eg Feri) can leave it on; those who aren’t really affected by it one way or the other (eg me) don't care and those who are undecided can experiment and come to a conclusion. There are other, competing technologies that do similar things - eg the Dolby and THX variants, and these can be tried too by anyone in the 'undecided' camp. 

 

At least Audyssey had the sense to allow us to turn it off, or even adapt it (via RLO) to sources it was never really meant to work on. If we couldn't turn it off, I can see why people would be irritated by it. But we can.

 

It's academically interesting to read the back-and-forth views and counterviews, for a page or three, but after a while it probably becomes tedious. Hopefully, someone will come along soon who is seeking some real advice on how to use Audyssey with his system ;)

 

Just sayin' ...

All...need a little assistance with Audessy. First off, I have been reading this thread, checked out Batpigs page, studied the Audessy setup page and I am just not getting the results.

Quick background. Recently replaced a Denon 3801 with a Denon 1613. Although Audessy sounds great, the level in my rear surronds is extremely overly agressive. Its so bad that the wife is complaining and insisting we take this receiver back.

Now I read that this could be a calibration issue with the way I did things. I have also turned off Dynamic EQ and that seems to help but would prefer to leave it on. I have a medium sized room and my couch butts up against my back wall. My rear surrounds sit to the side of the couch pointing outward (toward the fronts). My question is, when I run the Audessy calibration, do i turn the speakers inward (i.e. facing the mic), temporarily move them behind the couch facing the mic (they wont stay there permanently) or keep them firing toward the TV (the way I initially did it). I have also read that others run Audessy and then manually turn down the rears but that seems to defat the purpose.

I am looking for advice. Appreciate it in advance!

Chris

don't mess with the placement of the speakers at all...that defeats the purpose even more. Few questions:

Where are you placing the mic for testing?

What are your trim levels saying after Audyssey runs?

Adjusting the trims down isn't defeating anything if Audyssey is reading something funky going on in your room.

It sounds like you like your surrounds low -- otherwise I don't see why you'd be aiming them the way you do. I suggest just manually lowering the SR & SL levels to whatever pleases you. It won't affect time alignment or EQ settings.

It's also possible the calibration was wonky (maybe mic was too close to back wall?) If you can, check the existing Audysse-set channel levels with an SPL meter (cheap at Radio Shack) and see if they are even across all channels, at your main listening position.

 

Seems my wish (in the post above) has been granted ;)  Thanks, Chris, and welcome to the Audyssey thread.

 

The simple answer to your question is that you should have the speakers set up for Audyssey calibration the same way they will be used for listening. So no, do not move them temporarily for Audyssey.

 

You unit has Audyssey MultEQ which is two steps below the 'top' Audyssey version, but it should still not cause your surrounds to dominate the sound as they seem to be doing.

 

First thing I would suggest is going into the menu and turning Audyssey off. Then listen. Do the surrounds still sound too aggressive or are they now OK?  If the former, then it may not be an Audyssey issue. If the latter, and turning Audyssey on causes the aggressive surrounds sound to reappear, then we need to do some more troubleshooting.

 

First, have you read and followed the Audyssey 101 linked in my signature? It is important to follow the setup instructions closely, especially wrt to pointing the mic up the ceiling, supporting the mic properly, using all measurement positions possible etc. If you have not yet read it I suggest you do now. If you have read it, I suggest you read it again to double check that you have fully complied with every step.

 

Next, can you please tell us the trim settings (both distance and level) for all of your speakers including the surrounds. The way you have the surrounds, facing forwards, is slightly unusual and this may be the root cause of the problem. Audyssey may be 'hearing' a much diminished response from them and thus setting the trims for those channels unusually high. When we see your trims we will have a better idea. Usually, Audyssey would expect to 'see' the speakers. I don't think this is an insurmountable problem if it is indeed the problem. If it turns out that this guess of mine is correct, there is no harm in turning down the trims of the surrounds - it doesn't adversely affect the calibration or the filters created.

 

Do you happen to have an SPL meter?  if not, and you have an iPhone or an Android smartphone, you can download one that will probably be accurate enough for the test I am about to suggest. Search for 'decibel' in the App Store. Once you have it, use the test tones in your AVR speaker menu to rotate through the front, centre and surround channels, making a note of the decibel reading for each. it should be 75dB all round, but dont worry about that. What we are looking for is a consistent reading from speaker to speaker. Let us know what the readings are for each channel. If the surrounds are reading way too high, then this will help us create a solution for you.

 

I look forward to you coming back with the answers to the questions above.

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

 

Could be the only way he can wall mount them in his room?  If they are monopoles, it would actually help create a more diffuse sound to have them facing that way, but it could cause Audyssey to 'hear' them in a strange way. 

Thanks for all the great replies. When I get home tonight, I'll check the settings in Audessy and report back. Appreciate it!

Is this an open-plan type room or do you have side walls? If the latter, then try pointing your surround speakers towards the side walls rather than front wall. If I'm going to hear surround information via reflections, then I would rather have those sounds come from my sides instead of coming from in front of me (muddying the front soundstage). Audyssey technologies are good, but not perfect. As such, you shouldn't be afraid of second guessing the results, especially when you don't like some things you're hearing. Making small adjustments that improve the overall experience (like lowering surround levels slightly so they're not distracting) won't defeat Audyssey's primary purpose (room EQ).

I've only heard my own system. In my experience, overboosting of the surrounds (and the sub) can occur with some source material, and much more commonly with TV shows than movies (I never use it with music and seldom with TV shows). Yes, I know the fiddling with the RLO can reduce the overboosting...

More info.


My speakers are Energy Take 5.

Here are my Audessy settings: distance and Decibel

FL - 10.4, +3
FR - 10.6, +2
C - 10.6, +1
Sub - 18.8, +6.5
SL - 4.8, +1.5
SR - 4.7 +2


Audessy, reported my FR and Rear left as being out of phase. I checked the wiring and it is fine. Double checked with DVE and and SPL and it came back in phase as well.

I calibrated with the mic in the initial listening position with all external noises off, then moved in each direction about 2 feet. My room is square with a large opening to the kitchen on the left side. The only way I can have the rear speakers is on stands (31" height) to the side of the couch.

The sound from the fronts, center and sub is beautiful.

Sanjay: are you saying that with a couch against a back wall, that rather than have the surrounds pointing toward the front walls, that if that user has side walls, those surround speakers point toward the side walls, with the front-firing part of the speakers pointing AWAY from the MLP? To create a more immersive sound by taking advantage of the side reflections to create more ambience?

If you have speakers designed to be surrounds (vs. plain bookshelves), I could see where that might work, and maybe even tame the surround boosting some dislike with Dynamic EQ. Or have I jumped into the wrong rabbit hole LOL....

Edit: or maybe not. Straight from the oracle himself:
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/98637-surround-speaker-placement
Edited by sdrucker - 3/22/13 at 4:47am

IF your surround speakers are just on the outside of your couch, then pointing them at the listening position is going to be distracting, especially if you're sitting at either end of the couch (you're going to have a tweeter a foot from your ear, pointing right into your ear canal).

So, one way to deal with it is what ChicagoChris seems to have done: point the speakers at the front wall. The speakers themselves will be less distracting, since they're pointing away from you, and you'll hear a combination of direct sound from the speaker and reflections off the front wall. But is the front wall the direction you want to hear surround information from? I don't.

Which is why I suggested that, IF you're going to be pointing them away from you anyway, aim them at the side walls. I'd rather hear surround information come from the sides instead of in front of me, given those two choices. This isn't about creating a more ambient surround field, though that might end up being a happy side effect, it's mostly trying to avoid distracting surrounds.

My room is a bit over 14 feet wide, and I have my direct firing surrounds mounted at my sides, about 3 feet above ear level. With that kind of distance, there's no problem pointing the speakers towards the listening position. However, if my surrounds were on stands right next to the couch, there's no way I'd have them pointed towards the listening position. But if I am going to point them away, then I don't want surround information muddying the front soundstage. Hence pointing them to the sides.

Exactly what we have been discussing lately here on the thread in depth. And you have gotten exc advice here. Allow me to recap.

Excess surround boost from DEQ is a factor here. But you can still enjoy Audyssey's benefits. See this section of the handy FAQ compiled by Keith. Turning RLO up based on content, and even turning the trim of the sats down if need be as well, should solve the problem immediately. You can can also play with reaiming the surrounds when you have time to do Audyssey reruns to see if that improves things further. I agree, aiming the surrounds so far off axis to the measuring mic also likely contributes to the problem. I wonder if they may not only be boosted but disproportionately boosted in the treble perhaps making them even more annoying.

Thanks for reporting back. Those results look OK to me, as does your method.

 

Have a careful read of Sanjay's posts. I think he could be right on the money - if your surround speakers are monopoles and at ear height I can see why you have turned them away from your ears - especially at less than 5 feet away from the MLP. Whoever is sitting to your right and left is going to be practically on top of the speakers!  I like Sanjay's idea of pointing them towards the walls, if this is possible. If not, have you tried pointing them towards the rear wall? This seems more logical for ambient surround information. I have also read of people in similar circumstances who point them up towards the ceiling too.

 

Experiment along these lines, re-running Audyssey, and see if this solves the problem.

 

Did you get a SPL app and measure the levels of all the speakers?

 

One final point, when you re-run Audyssey, you might care to turn the sub gain control UP a little to bring the sub more in line with +/- 3.5dB. See this FAQ answer and the one immediately following it for more info on that:

 

f)3. How do I set the controls on my subwoofer before running MultEQ?

 

Quite. Fortunately it is easy for Chris to experiment with aiming the speakers in different ways, re-running Audyssey and listening. I am fairly sure now that it isn't his technique or mic placement etc that is causing the problem, and it isn’t an Audyssey problem as such, but the solution lies in the various tips he has been given so far. I hope he reports back with a success story after further experimentation.