"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 268

Originally Posted by Bronco70

Some folks are a little too serious about this stuff. Yes under most circumstances a 1 dB change is audible.

Joe

Originally Posted by David Aiken

Well, my volume control is calibrated in dB and sometimes the difference in a volume setting I like and one that is a little too soft or too loud is only 0.5 dB. A half dB change can be noticeable under some circumstances and so can a full dB. Most people can detect differences of 0.5 or 1.0 dB under the right circumstances and they don't have to be "golden ears" to do so.

Audibility of Loudness Changes

Modern faders are the composition type giving graduations in level so small as to be inaudible. Wire-wound faders of early mixing consoles produced discrete steps in level that could be audible. Steps of 5 dB were definately audible, setp of 0.5 dB were inaudible, but these steps cost too much to produce and 0.5 dB steps were not necessary. Steps of 2 dB, an economic compromise, produced changes in signal level that were barely detectable by an expert ear. Detecting difference in instensity varies somewhat with frequency and also with sound level.

At 1 kHz, for very low levels, a 3-dB change is the least detectable by ear, but at very high levels the ear can detect a 0.24-dB change. A very low level 35-Hz tone requires a 9-dB level changes to be detectable. For the important midfrequency range and for commonly used levels, the maximum detectable change in level that the ear can detect is about 2 or 3 dB. Making level changes in increaments less than these is usually unnecessary.

Originally Posted by Bronco70

OK, I was being a little sarcastic. Some folks are a little too serious about this stuff. Yes under most circumstances a 1 dB change is audible.

If you run Audyssey with the recommended procedure with the first measure at the center line between the two front mains but tend to listen away from that position then adjusting a trim might result in better perceived sound.

Point is use whatever sounds good to your ears. Nothing will be ruined or broken.

Every time I'm stopped at a light and can feel the bass thumping from a car in line 3 vehicles back I smile. The owner, no doubt is quite happy with the sound.

Joe

Originally Posted by charles0424

Ooops sorry if I wasn't clear on things but I actually meant my sub was to bass heavy after the Audyssey calibration and would like to LOWER it by 3 or 4 db's in the channel level settings in my receiver. Lol I guess this is what happens when we try to post at 1am Sorry for the confusion.

I don't have golden ears but I did notice a difference by bumping up my left front speaker by a full db and LOVE the results! The thing is with my subs is I feel they are set to high and I just wanted to know if it will be ok if I turn them down by about 3.5dbs in the channel level in my Denon 4308ci receiver?? Or would you have a alternate way that would make things better without ruining any Audyssey settings?

Thanks

Originally Posted by LarryChanin


It should be pointed out that when Mr. Everest states that something is inaudible, he undoubtedly is discussing this in the context of a scientific experiment, that is, in a blind test. When I turn the master volume knob on my prepro by 1 dB and think I can detect the difference, at normal listening levels, I'm probably reacting to placebo effect knowing that I changed the volume, but that doesn't mean I could have detected that small change in a blind test.

Larry

Originally Posted by htjunkee

So if I'm to understand Joe correctly if I wanted to say bump my sub trim level up any number of decibles to have the bass more pronouced, that would not change/alter any of Audyessy's settings? My apologies if I'm a little slow on the uptake but this is all new to me and I just recalibrated with Audyessy multi and don't want be back to square 1. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Aetherhole

Only 3 cars away? Here in So Cal, some cars you start to audibly hear and feel them darn near half a mile away.

Originally Posted by Bronco70

It would change what Audyssey found to be the correct balance. As David and many of us have suggested in the past it may be a good idea to live with what Audyssey found for a while to see if it sounds better.

Some people like more low end emphasis. Nothing wrong with that. In my room Audyssey reduced two nasty room modes in the low end. One mode at 40Hz was about +12 dB. What a wonderful difference. Less bass, definitely, but far more accurate reproduction. "One note" bass sounds terrible to me. I could even at this point increase the sub trim and the balance would be inaccurate but the response across the audio band would still be flatter/more accurate. My teenage son would probably like about +8dB boost in the low end. Not gonna happen with Dad's room. He has his own system for that.

Bottom line nothing wrong with adjusting to taste.

Joe

Originally Posted by htjunkee

Thanks for getting back to me Joe. So I just watched The Incredible Hulk movie(2008) just after recaibrating with Audyssey and I initially thought the bass was a little lean. But I hung in there thinking I might need to "get used" to it. Upon reading your reply it looks as thought I may have done the correct thing. It actually started to sound good to me maybe that's what I was missing just giving it time for me to get accustomed to the difference. I also like the idea of Audyssey apparently as you say taking care of "room modes". I imagine that's a Eq-ing type function which is good because my room is "live" plaster & lath. I don't have a stand alone BFD or anything or acoustical treatments for that matter. Wouldn't know how to use them if I did. Maybe I'll leave it @ Audyssey for a while as you suggest, but it's nice to know that as I believe you said, there's nothing wrong with adjusting to taste.

Originally Posted by Bronco70

Audyssey accomplishes a result that is more refined than any parametric EQ unit I have used over the years. You can learn much about it here and on the Audyssey site.

If your room is truly live and untreated you might want to peruse the forums here to get an idea of what can be done. Not all treatments are expensive or even "purpose" designed. Audyssey is a great tool but can not overcome all problems with in room response.

Larry's reference to Everest's book is helpful. Perhaps the best work I have read on all things relating to acoustics.

Cheers

Joe

Originally Posted by Ericthemidget

Yes, but I think the real issue is that your center speaker is contained within your entertainment center.

Even though the wife won't approve, try running audyssey again with the center speaker outside of your entertainment center (on top).

Originally Posted by htjunkee

Sounds as though Audyssey is quite the little workhorse and to think I didn't think too much of it as part of the bundle that came with my Integra Dtr 7.8. Thanks again for all the information. Jerry.

Originally Posted by MarkyM

Hi,
I just ran Audyssey on my new Denon 3808 and all went well except that Audyssey is reporting my Subwoofer as being closer than it really is.

I have seen reports here of Audyssey reporting the sub as farther than it really is due to onboard xovers etc. but not closer.

Well treated room (Auralex), Phase Tech PC1 Mains 8 ft away, Sub is an SVS PCI 20-39 powered cylinder and is a couple feet back and to the right of the left main.

That would make it about 10 feet away but Audyssey reports 6.2 ft.

The left and right mains are accurately reported s 8.0 ft.

Crossover and phase controls are all defeated onthe sub and the level is trimmed down enough so that the Audyssey level came out at 0.0

Is this OK? Seems to sound OK.

I haven't tried manually playing with the distance setting yet.

Thanks,

--Mark--

Originally Posted by Rolls-Royce

Mark, Audyssey will do this in order to put the sub in phase with the other speakers. It looks as though it'll set the sub to whatever distance gives the best results.

Originally Posted by sixfoot

Update: Center speaker is out of the cabinet and now at the base of the TV angled up. Reran Audyssey. Also measured with an SPL - all speakers (except sub) report a 77 db level +/-2. So that tells me everything is configured correctly.

My dialog does sound better, but I find myself always listening for issues. I'm considering bumping the center channel a few db to make the dialog even more distinct. Can you guys think of any reasons NOT to do this - like side effects?

Originally Posted by David Aiken


Suggestions: Check to make sure that you don't have "double bass" engaged. I don't know what the Onkyo settings are for that but if you have a Denon, set all speakers to "Small". If "double bass" is engaged you're boosting the bass levels and turning it off may well solve your problems.

Originally Posted by kjgarrison

David, I have a Denon and am not familiar with "double bass". Would you enlighten please?

Ken

Originally Posted by David Aiken


But, to get back to my first point, it really is worth while trying to figure out just why you don't like the result of Audyssey's bass settings because that can make a difference when it comes to deciding what the best way to deal with it is. I'd recommend living with the Audyssey result for a week or so with double bass turned off, then make a change by playing with the bass control or the sub's trim level and see what you think. You may decide that you actually prefer the Audyssey result after you've lived with it for a few days and have adjusted to the different balance that equalisation provides.

Originally Posted by Ericthemidget

Yes, but I think the real issue is that your center speaker is contained within your entertainment center.

Even though the wife won't approve, try running audyssey again with the center speaker outside of your entertainment center (on top). Can you post a picture of your setup?

Originally Posted by MrHifi

If you turn Dynamic Volume on Light, the center channel dialog will be much clearer. I would not bump anything.

Originally Posted by Bronco70

Larry's reference to Everest's book is helpful. Perhaps the best work I have read on all things relating to acoustics.

Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215

Kal - this is unrelated but can you shed any light on the notion that popped up on one of these threads, to wit, the Integra 9.8 and 9.9 cannot use Audyssey for PCM above 96K? Chris has already said it's not an Audyssey limitation, but may come from the AVP's lack of DSP processor power. I am wondering if this affects other AVP's + AVR's, as well, e.g., the Denon or the Anthem D-2 with ARC. Have you tried the 2L Blue Ray recording with any success at 192K?

Originally Posted by David Aiken

Yes, double bass on the Denon's is LFE+Main.

Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215

Kal - this is unrelated but can you shed any light on the notion that popped up on one of these threads, to wit, the Integra 9.8 and 9.9 cannot use Audyssey for PCM above 96K?

Chris has already said it's not an Audyssey limitation, but may come from the AVP's lack of DSP processor power. I am wondering if this affects other AVP's + AVR's, as well, e.g., the Denon or the Anthem D-2 with ARC. Have you tried the 2L Blue Ray recording with any success at 192K?

Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215

Kal - this is unrelated but can you shed any light on the notion that popped up on one of these threads, to wit, the Integra 9.8 and 9.9 cannot use Audyssey for PCM above 96K? Chris has already said it's not an Audyssey limitation, but may come from the AVP's lack of DSP processor power.

Originally Posted by Bronco70

Kind of the same here. When I decided on the Integra DTC-9.8 I thought this Audyssey thing sounds promising. At the time I was focused on getting HDMI and hence the ability to finally hear the newer audio codecs on BD discs from my PS3.

Well the new codecs; very nice, Audyssey: fantastic.

Joe

Originally Posted by David Aiken

Actually a blind test is only part of it. That kind of testing uses a large number of subjects and aggregates responses. I always end up wondering just what is being reported and what is actually taken as being the boundary between audibility/inaudibility. People do have different hearing acuity and I wonder about the make-up of the subject group. Were they all young without any age-related hearing decline or did the group include some oldsters like me? Are they reporting the cut-off between audibility and inaudibility at the level that 50% of subjects can hear/not hear or is it the level that 95% can't, or what? I've never seen that information reported anywhere and I'd really love to know.

Mostly I think those tests use test tones, like the basic audiology tests. Level will certainly make a difference with music because the tonal balance changes with level due to the ear's change in response at the bass and high frequencies (look at a plot for the Fletcher Munson curves), as will the frequency content of the music or soundtrack for exactly the same reason.

In my HT system which is in a fairly live and untreated room, I tend to make level adjustments of a couple of dB at a time and I tend not to notice differences with finer adjustments. Part of that may well have to do with the fact that my eyes are engaged as well. My audio system is in a different room which is acoustically treated and I don't have visual distractions. As I said, the difference between the level I'm happy with and one I'm not happy with is often only 0.5 dB there, but that system and room show up subtle differences in the music very well.

I also wonder whether the reason I find half a dB can make a difference with music for me is that I'm not listening for whether or not I can pick a difference in level but rather for what level "sounds right" to me, so things like tonal balance and changes in the perceived relative levels of the bass and high frequencies to the midrange are important aspects of that judgement. I don't think I'm listening that change in the sound is something you can listen to/for with single test tones. It's also something I can pick much easier with the sound of acoustic instruments where I have a reasonably good knowledge of what they actually sound like in live performance, partly because the instruments I've played and heard others play in private settings have all been acoustic. I find it much harder to have the same feel for the sound of electric instruments since they tend to vary considerably more due to the impact of differences in amplification and tone control settings.

Strangely, given the effect of level on audibility of differences, I listen to music at lower levels than I tend to listen to movie soundtracks. Perhaps I'm also conscious of the fact that I tend to listen to movie soundtracks at considerably below reference level so I'm perhaps a bit more inclined to pump up the volume in that system and get a little closer to reference level, plus I also don't have the same kind of idea of what "sounds right" for a soundtrack as I do with the sound of acoustic music. Also a lot of the movies I like watching really don't have the kind of soundtrack where I'm going to be concerned about subtleties in the sound. Sci-fi and action movies tend not to be into subtle nuance so I'm not going to find subtle differences if I listen for them, and I'm usually too engaged in what's happening to attend to the sound track to that degree.

Just what kind of difference is audible or inaudible is not a simple question and there are more than a few factors affecting the answer but I do believe that half dB adjustments are audible under the right conditions. Given individual differences in hearing acuity, there's also going to be no guarantee that if person A can hear a half dB difference in a given set of conditions, that person B will also hear it.

And, for the record, I'm 61 and I can no longer hear a 15-16 kHz test tone on my audio system at the levels I normally listen at though I can still hear a 12 kHz tone at that level. I actually had some hearing tests less than a month ago and over the range that audiologists measure most of my hearing is still in the normal range but I do have mild loss in the 3-4 kHz region. That mid-range loss is indicative of a noise-related loss, not aging. Overall my hearing has held up extremely well despite a bit of rock-related abuse in younger days but the extreme high end has now gone for me.