"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 291

This is a great anecdote! Effectively a blind test!

I too have a 6000 cubic foot room and I have many acoustic problems, in spite of room treatments. Audyssey has been a godsend.

Mark

You know, my wife never appreciated the sound quality either. Maybe it's genetic, who knows. But my efforts of showing off LFE etc was always met with "do i have to turn on the Denon just to watch the TV?" But that complaint went away after I purchased RF capable MX900 URC remote (man, I *love* that remote).

So the other day, we're at my sister-in-laws house playing guitar hero 4. My wife looks at me (we have rock band) and says "hmmm, I guess our speakers/Denon do make a difference. It doesn't sound so nice here" It almost brought tears to my eyes!

But what was more funny was when we were at Disney land staying at the Hyatt Grand Cypress hotel. My six year old son looks at the remote and says "You have to *point* this remote? It's garbage!!" I was so proud (as my wife rolls her eyes!) of him!! I'm training him early!!!!

I hope this isn't too dumb a question. Will Audyssey improve the acoustics of a very live room--one with hardwood floors, a wall of glass, cathedral ceilings, a room good for yodeling, but not must less where music is concerned? For aesthetic reasons, I don't want to put up wall treatments to absorb all those extra sound waves bouncing about. Will Audyssey deaden the room?

Do you know how Marantz implements this? I am a bit confused in setting up my SR8001 Marantz. The Denon AVR-3808CI I had recently configured was pretty easy to follow because post set-up with MultiEQ-XT it allowed one to change the crossover frequency setpoints for each channel, and then it had an LFE setting (which you are referring to as the one that should always be set at 120 Hz). Now, for my Marantz' SR8001 implementation of MultiEq, there are a few things that confuse me:

First, after running the 6 positions and analyzing I was able to "check setup" and see the outcome of the MultiEQ effort for "speaker config" "speaker size" "distance" "channel level" and "crossover freq" and, while I could view these results, I could not modify them in this portion of the set-up. (hence, I concluded I could only try to find the same setup areas under "manual setup" later, but some of these, like crossover frequency on a per channel basis I could not find...more below)

Appropriate results seemed apparent for "speaker config" and "distance". "Channel levels" seemed close upon later checking via the numbers MultiEQ put in the "Manual Setup", which I verified with an SPL in the primary listening position (though 2 non SW channels seemed a few db off..maybe 3-4)

I have no idea what MultiEQ interpreted insofar as "speaker size" and "crossover frequency" because all it reported in Marantz' implementation was "Auto" for each speaker size and also for crossover freq for the front, center, surr, and surr.b. This doesn't leave one with much knowledge on how they would begin to manual over-ride

Anyway, all of this leads to these questions:

1) First, should I or should I not use the SPL meter to do final adjustment of the channel levels that Audyssey is reporting on the Marantz? (note, when I did AEQ with the Denon it was spot on across all 8 channels. with the Marantz I have 2 non LFE channels that might be 3-4 db off). If I do adjust, will this negatively impact the eq curves, etc. because they were created with certain channel levels preset by Audyssey, etc.

2) I don't know what to make of the "Auto" descriptors for "speaker size" and "crossover frequency" At least for "speaker size" I was able to find values under Manual Setup that indicated all speakers other than the front R and L were set as small and those 2 were set as large. Hence, since their -3 db limit is around 48Hz, I set them to Small as well per Audyessey guidelines, so now I have all speakers set to Small. However, I see nowhere else where I can study crossover frequencies (nor modify them manually) for any of the other channels that were reported out as "Auto" by MutliEQ. (i.e. for front, center, surr, and surr.b) In fact, I also do not see an "LFE" setting. In the Manual set-up area I only see the ability to change speaker distances, speaker sizes (which, again, I forced all of them to "small") channel levels, and finally...and this is my real question, a setting for LPF/HPF. This is NOT explicitly stated as LFE LPF/HPF...and based on the owners manual description of "select cutoff freq. for any "small" speakers that are used in the system" it makes me think this is a global crossover frequency setting and NOT the real LFE LPF/HPF setting you recommend to be set at 120Hz on an always case. (note, if this is the case they are VERY confusing by using LPF/HPF instead of just "global crossover" or something). Obviously, if LPF/HPF is really a global crossover I would set it at around 80 Hz based on the rolloff curves for all my speakers. Then, I would want to know where do I set the real LFE filter setting at? I can not find it. If the LPF/HPF menu setting is REALLY an LFE setting, then following your suggestion I would put it at 120Hz, but then my question is where are the independent (or global) crossover settings for the non LFE channels?? Does this mean I can't set them anywhere if the LPF/HPF descriptor is for the LFE only?

Sorry for my lengthy description, but hopefully the source of my confusion is clear. I have done a LOT of reading here, in the SR8001 thread, and on Mutli-EQ FAQs and am more confounded by the Marantz implementation I think than the concepts of what I would like to do. Not sure how to interpret the menus in this Marantz I guess.

It will help, noticeably. OTOH, it cannot cure severe hardness and reflections.

Hey guys been reading this thread for a day or so and its quite a lot of info and I am not sure I understand it all, so here goes. I have an Onkyo SR806 Receiver, old Polk RM2300 5.0 with the Polk 10" sub that goes with that set (yes I know, I will get some new SVS speakers next year). Room is a loft on a 2nd story home, probably 15x12, sub is in a corner next to the couch. When I run the speaker config, have ran it 4x now, my sub always gets set to -15 and I can't hear it at all, I also have to turn the receiver up about half way to get enough sound from the satellites to hear movies and music. I read about the adjusting the sub volume, phase and crossover frequency, but it still always gets set to -15db. I am trying to remember all figures as I am at work atm, but I believe the crossover frequencies are set to 120 for the front, center and surrounds, sub 80hz (thx). As mentioned the sub is set to -15, the other satellites are also negative values, albeit much less 1-5db. I am just not happy with the sound, with my old Marantz 7000, system sounded much better with my manual adjustments. I have read many posts on using tripods with the mic, having room completely quiet, etc. Just not sure whats going on. Any advice would be appreciated.

-Rob

I didn't see what speakers that you are running with 12" woofers but imo, the Denon AVR-1909 more than likely won't have enough current to drive those speakers efficiently if you are setting them to Large.

what?????

The Denon AVR 1909 is a bottom of the line AVR that doesn't have the power supplies to be able to drive larger speakers as Large, imo.

I seem to remember this coming up before. The reason bass management should be used to route the bottom two octaves from the mains to the sub is somewhat related to your reasoning, but technically you are incorrect. (If you use speakers with an efficiency and power requirements matched to the 1909, it will "drive them as large.") Setting them to small does free up some power to reproduce the remaining frequencies, a definite benefit. Mainly, though, subs just do a better job of reproducing the lower frequencies. IMO, there are NO large speakers, at least none that all but a very small number of us can afford. And then, of course, there are the expensive amps needed to drive them.

Also, subs can usually be better placed to minimize room modes whereas mains are usually placed based on creating the best sound stage.

Audyssey hasn't been advertised as an anti-yodeling device, but might help like others have said.

You could probably get some acoustical treatments that look quite classy and might actually enhance your decor. Probably not cheap, but might want to reconsider.

Does this mean that you recommend that the x-over for the front speakers always be set to 80 Hz? What about 60 Hz if your fronts do that well?

The reason it is set to -15 is that it is so close to the listening position and probably turned up too high on the back. MultEQ is trying to set reference level and that means it will try to turn it down until it's right. The problem is that at -15 you are out of range on the receiver. You should turn down the volume on the sub a little more and run again. Also, make sure that you either (1) go in to the sub via the LFE input if it has one or (2) turn the crossover knob on the sub all the way up so that it doesn't interfere with the measurement and bass management in the receiver.

The reason you don't hear much coming from it is not the -15 setting. It is because your speakers are most likely set to Full Range and that means that no bass from those channels is sent to the sub. Set the speakers to Small manually by selecting a crossover (60 or 80 Hz). Unfortunately Audyssey isn't allowed to set speakers to Small automatically...

The speakers are Yamaha NS-690 IIIs. I've had them since I was 12. I am saving up to get some Definitive BP fronts (the rest of my HT is already Definitive). I hear what you are saying about the power of the 1909. Unfortunately, it was the most I could afford. To be fair to Audyssey, it did set the XOver for these speakers at 60hZ.

The Denon 3808 has MultEQ XT and Dynamic EQ. That gives it much higher filter resolution and also the ability to set the reference level automatically. The 8001 has MultEQ which is the more basic version of our room correction software and no Dynamic EQ. So, the levels will be set so that the speakers play at the same level, but not automatically set to reference. You can manually adjust the levels with an SPL meter without any negative effect on the room correction filters

In looking through the 8001 manual it appears that Marantz only allows a single crossover frequency for all channels. It is the LPF/HPF setting. So, you can change manually after calibration that but it will apply across all speakers. I suggest changing it to 60 or 80 Hz.

The sub was about halfway up with the crossover all the way up, but it is close to mic given its location, so I will go even lower, maybe 1/4. I read that after the calibration it should be between -3 to 3 for the sub?

Should I change any of the speaker levels on the front, center, or surround? As mentioned, they are all negative values and I have to turn the receiver up about half way to get it to a good listening level...

Don't worry too much about the -3 to 3 range for the sub. As long as you are not near the -15 dB limit of the receiver you will be fine.


Moving the trim levels up is identical to turning up the master volume. There is absolutely no difference so you can do it either way.

Following are the -3 db limits for my system

Front L&R 50Hz
Center 52Hz
SB L&R 45Hz
Surr L&R 45Hz

Based on this, I presume I could use either 60 or 80, but what would be the theoretical difference in what a human with good ears would notice between these two selections? Would 80 be better because it puts more work on the powered Hsu sub and therefore also increases the efficiency or quality of the small speakers because of less strain they would endure? Additionally, should I get more feeling of "bass" output? Or, will none of this be true, and there is no benefit of 80, so go with 60 to possibly encounter a smoother blending? I plan on doing some tests tonight to see if anything is noticeable....but just wondered if you have an opinion based on these -3 db specs. (note, all Polk LSi setup)

Thanks so much for clarifying why things were apparently different between the Denon 3808 and the Marantz SR8001.

You can say that again.

The level of service you provide in this forum is priceless and one
of the reasons I will always purchase a product with Audyssey.

To be able to come here with questions and have them answered
in a timely fashion is a tremendous plus.

Many thanks.

Excellent. Thanks for the info, I will give it a try when I get home.

OK, maybe i need a push on this, but is the Audyssey upgrades worth doing for the 3808? The money is not an issue, my concern is about the the overall sound quality and bass problems I've read about. I mostly watch BD movies and HD TV.

Not necessarily always, but it's a safe choice. As for the move to 60Hz, I'd probably at least use my ears to determine if I could hear a difference and, if so, which did I prefer. Maybe make some measurements to see if 60Hz coming from the front speakers caused any room mode issues.

This seems to be a tough issue for some. They seem to be offended that their large speakers with good bass response specs are best set to small.

"How does it sound?" is my main criteria.

Just my $.02.

Tx for the reply. I'm certainly not offended re setting the speakers to 'small'. The Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1's are -3 dB at 45 Hz, though, and many people rave about using them for music w/o a sub.

Re 60 or 80 Hz for the x-over with my sub (SVS PB10), my thought was that 80 Hz is near the region where one begins to be able to localize the sound. So that if the front speakers could handle things down to 60 Hz, then maybe one would get the intended localization of the 60-80 Hz region better by having the x-over set down to 60. Of course this reasoning may be all wet, but that is where I was coming from.

I have always read that the localization begins around 120 Hz, but I personally feel like I can localize even lower. Who is right?
Thanks
enzo

After 3 tries I now believe I have my Denon/789's Audyssey
working correctly (except for badly mixed bass on some TV
content).

My only problem is it's difficult to understand dialog from the
center channel. This has probably been answered before, but
will upping the center channel trim negatively impact the
Audyssey setup? I have had to do this when manually
setting up the speakers with an SPL meter.

I added the 20Hz high pass filter to my sub today and checked the results (see the attached word document). It has given me back the headroom I wanted below the sub's port resonance and seems to have been a success. I'm interested in any theories as to what's happening between the 56Hz and 143Hz samples, though the sound itself seems fine.

All the responses were with all speakers in use, so there may be some phase changes brought about the mod? Essentially a series capacitor is added to the power amp input stage and an increased value capacitor in a second position in the driver stage. The problem I have now is that if I repeat the Audyssey setup with the filter in place, then Audyssey might add back the low end boost again. I may just have to live with it, or try manually altering the sub phase control and recheck the responses (currently phase is set to '0' as per the Audyssey guide).

I carried out a single position response before carrying out the mod and another straight after, with the meter in the exact same spot and the amp volume, sub levels set as before. I've pasted the responses onto a word document, so I hope any interest parties can open this document. The second graph compares the response I had during the War Of The Worlds 'pop' issue, to a 3 position averaged plot of the post filter mod.

The filter has brought the 10Hz response down by about 9db and presumably progressively more below 10Hz (I have no test tones below 10Hz to try). I don't know how much (if any) signal below 10Hz exists in WOTW or other LFE heavy films, but it's good to know that is being suitably attenuated before it can cause damage to the speaker.

I played WOTW at -15db on my amp, Monolith subwoofer gain at 12 o'clock, sub gain at 1.5db (as set by Audyssey), Audyssey mode 'ON', using both DTS and DD sound tracks through chapter 5 and beyond. There were no nasty noises other than those intended by the sound engineer.

Hopefully I can get on with enjoying my Home Cinema now.

 

Responses pre & post mod.doc 28.5k . file

Obviously, no one can really answer for you as to whether or not you will find the upgrade "worth doing," but I was in your shoes as well. I didn't have any noticeable bass issues, but I did want to get the DynamicEQ (I don't care about Dynamic Volume, because it doesn't bother either my wife or me when we hear some sound in our bedroom from the kids using the receiver, even at fairly high volumes). I'd guess we listen to movies around -9 or -10 most of the time on our 3808, and I wanted to get the "better" sound for volumes under reference.

After installing the upgrade and running Audyssey, I definitely heard the "boomy" bass that I hadn't noticed before. What that did for me was expose something I was doing wrong with my Audyssey setup -- my subwoofer was being set to -12 (the limit, I believe, for the Denon 3808), so the receiver couldn't lower it enough (I had the volume set to the 12:00 position, as recommended for the setup, but that was way too loud for my sub). DynamicEQ was raising bass levels for below-reference volumes, and it was very noticeable. So, after playing with my filter settings (setting to highest), and lowering the volume a couple of times and testing the main listening position, I finally got it set the right way, ran all eight positions, and voila, no more boomy bass. In fact, I think it sounds great, so for me it was worth it. I'm definitely noticing better sound for lower volumes -- at least *I* think it's better. YMMV.

Note, I don't yet use Blu-ray or other high-resolution audio source. I use mostly DVD (played on an Oppo 983), Dish Network (HD only), Xbox/Wii, and AppleTV. TV watching is relatively rare at my house compared to DVDs or video games, so I guess I'm missing out on the poorly-mixed TV sound.

Chris, can you elaborate a little on 'limits'. From previous posts I thought that 12dB was Audyssey's limit for filters. Above you talk of a -15dB limit for a particular receiver.

Do different receivers have different limits, and what are Audyssey's limits? Specifically I'm interested in a Denon 4308ci's limits.

This information would be needed to decide when to adjust trims as well as, for example, invest in a BFD.

Not always, but there are reasons to set your fronts to small and raise the crossover.

1. Subwoofers do bass better than mains, or at least they should. The -3dB point of your mains is used to pick the crossover by your receiver/amp/preamp (not Audyssey), but at that same point, and lower, your sub should still be flat.

2. Audyssey applies 8 times as many filters to the audio going to the sub as it does to the mains. So push your crossover as high as you can without making it sound bad. Bad means the ability to localize the sound coming from the sub. You don't want that.

3. The more energy your main amp offloads to the sub's amp, the more headroom you have for the rest of your speakers.

There are human factors, some valid, some not.

Valid: How it sounds to you without the knowledge of which one of an A/B comparison you are listening to.

Not Valid (but powerful): The feeling of insult that those awesome mains you spent most of your speaker money on don't get to perform up to their full capacity... er, I guess I should say ... down to their full capacity. They are called "small" so you can adjust the crossover, not because they are weenies.

At least this is how I've gleaned a small part of the huge amount of info in this thread.

I believe it will not.