or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 5

post #121 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"I'm assuming that when the subwoofer is being used, you'll have the front L/R speakers crossed over at some point; when not using the sub, you'll be running those same speakers full range. Yes?

In that case, you're right, you would need more than one configuration saved in memory."

That may not be the case if he disables the sub in the receiver instead of just turning it off.

I believe Audyssey remembers the full response of the main speakers, which is why you can change XO freq after running setup.

Not sure whether this extends to disabling the sub.

It should. OTOH, it will depend somewhat on what version of Audyssey you have. The Pro used with the SEQ makes adjustments dependent on the crossover you select and, once made, is fixed. In practice, it made little difference to my ears.
post #122 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Nick,

... However, if you do end up getting the Audyssey unit, consider running 2.1 instead of 2.0. IF Audyssey can get a satisfactory blend between your front L/R speakers and your subwoofer, you may not feel the need to turn off the sub when listening to 2-channel material.

Sanjay

Perhaps 2.1 is closer to optimal (objective sense) than 2.0 configuration.

Hmm... this could work:
  1. Run the sub's own parametric EQ calibration.
  2. Then run the receiver's Audyssey calibration.
  3. Check if the receiver did correction in the sub's LF range.
  4. In case it did, tweak the sub's parametric EQ, with the intention of eliminating the correction by the receiver's Audyssey.
  5. Re-run the receiver's Audyssey calibration and loop back to step 3 until the receiver stops making correction to the sub's LF range.

With 6-8 microphone positions, that might take a while but it would be a way to do it.
post #123 of 70896
sounds like a plan. Boy, i'm liking this unit more and more with each post. It's just sooooo darned expensive...the pro unit that is.
post #124 of 70896
How does Audyssey compare to yammy's ypao?
post #125 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

It's just sooooo darned expensive...the pro unit that is.

And it looks like the "pro" unit can't even be used by the owner to re-callibrate. The owner has to call in an installer to do any recallibration. That's ridiculous.
post #126 of 70896
Well. Takes the fun out of it. I am out of here. Thank you all for your valuable information.
post #127 of 70896
Quote:


It should. OTOH, it will depend somewhat on what version of Audyssey you have. The Pro used with the SEQ makes adjustments dependent on the crossover you select and, once made, is fixed. In practice, it made little difference to my ears.

Quote:


1. Run the sub's own parametric EQ calibration.
2. Then run the receiver's Audyssey calibration.
3. Check if the receiver did correction in the sub's LF range.
4. In case it did, tweak the sub's parametric EQ, with the intention of eliminating the correction by the receiver's Audyssey.
5. Re-run the receiver's Audyssey calibration and loop back to step 3 until the receiver stops making correction to the sub's LF range.


With 6-8 microphone positions, that might take a while but it would be a way to do it.

I believe the reason Kal is hearing little difference between different crossover points is that Audyssey's algorithms for the sub-to-satellite splice work so seamlessly (especially in the Pro implementation) in light of the often wildly disparate distances between the sub(s) and the satellites in real world installations.

In my first interview with Tom and Chris in December '04 Tom pretty much admitted that THX's fixed-slope 4th order low pass for the sub with second order high pass for the sats was the best THX technology of the past could do at the time. Fixed slopes did work for most theater installations because the THX set-up crew could group the .1 channel and the front LCR channels in the correct (close) orientation behind the theater screen and then tweak the relative sub's and sat's relative positions via sophisicated measurement analysis.

In the home this close sub-to-sat orientation is seldom possible. And consumers certainly don't have the technical knowledge or specialized measurement equipment required to perform this critical task (when using fixed-slope sub and sat systems). IMHO Audyssey's frequency and phase manipulation of crossover slope shapes at the critical sub-to-sat splice appears to be one of the least understood and most under-appreciated aspects of their technology.

Receivers with sub-to-sat crossover capability use fixed slope crossovers so it is highly doubtful (except by sheer luck) that a seamless sub-to-sat splice such as the ASEq Pro is capable of could be achieved. But if you can't measure your result you might talk yourself into believing....

The five steps listed above would not to address the sub-to-sat splice at all. From experience with several Audyssey Pro and sub configurations what I've found best is to:

a) Place sub(s) in their locations (allowed by room layout and wife).
b) If an Infinity RABOS or Velodyne with EQ software is used run software of each sub individually with mic set at the sweet spot. Fix results after best individual frequency response is achieved.
c) Run Audyssey Pro and sent final results into the ASEq for Audyssey's optimal slope shape and phase massage.

Patrick Hart
post #128 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhart View Post

IMHO Audyssey's frequency and phase manipulation of crossover slope shapes at the critical sub-to-sat splice appears to be one of the least understood and most under-appreciated aspects of their technology.

Receivers with sub-to-sat crossover capability use fixed slope crossovers so it is highly doubtful (except by sheer luck) that a seamless sub-to-sat splice such as the ASEq Pro is capable of could be achieved. But if you can't measure your result you might talk yourself into believing....

Agreed but I would point out that the ASEq does not implement the actual crossover filters; that must be done in the pre/pro. OTOH, if those filters play by the THX rules, the ASEq correction anticipates them.

Quote:


The five steps listed above would not to address the sub-to-sat splice at all. From experience with several Audyssey Pro and sub configurations what I've found best is to:

a) Place sub(s) in their locations (allowed by room layout and wife).
b) If an Infinity RABOS or Velodyne with EQ software is used run software of each sub individually with mic set at the sweet spot. Fix results after best individual frequency response is achieved.
c) Run Audyssey Pro and sent final results into the ASEq for Audyssey's optimal slope shape and phase massage.

Again, agreed.
post #129 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei View Post

And it looks like the "pro" unit can't even be used by the owner to re-calibrate. The owner has to call in an installer to do any recalibration. That's ridiculous.

Several upcoming (July) Denon receiver's will have software very similar to Audyssey's Sound Equalizer on board. However, this software will only be able to be accessed by a certified Audyssey installer who will do the set-up.

For Denon receiver's under $3000 SRP each individual Audyssey MultEQ XT Pro "key" from Audyssey will cost $150. For Denon receiver's over $3000 each individual Audyssey key will cost $300. This key will be tied electronically to an imbedded (in the receiver) electronic serial number which is transmitted to Audyssey and logged into their data base.

(This information is from Matt Good who taught Denon's CI semimar at Electronic Stockroom (a Denon distributor in Van Nuys, CA) on March 13th.)

To maintain the Audyssey Pro system performance Audyssey closely monitors all installations via their database at their Los Angeles headquarters. When you have a technology whose calibrated, very high resolution audio performance is so intimately and critically dependent on the consumer's room, it's speaker locations and its seating locations this is the solution the folks at Audyssey felt must to be implemented to maintain the system's performance and integrity.

Patrick Hart
post #130 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Agreed but I would point out that the ASEq does not implement the actual crossover filters; that must be done in the pre/pro. OTOH, if those filters play by the THX rules, the ASEq correction anticipates them.

Again, agreed.

So is THX the design basis of the Audyssey?
post #131 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhart View Post

Several upcoming (July) Denon receiver's will have software very similar to Audyssey's Sound Equalizer on board. However, this software will only be able to be accessed by a certified Audyssey installer who will do the set-up.

For Denon receiver's under $3000 SRP each individual Audyssey MultEQ XT Pro "key" from Audyssey will cost $150. For Denon receiver's over $3000 each individual Audyssey key will cost $300. This key will be tied electronically to an imbedded (in the receiver) electronic serial number which is transmitted to Audyssey and logged into their data base.

(This information is from Matt Good who taught Denon's CI semimar at Electronic Stockroom (a Denon distributor in Van Nuys, CA) on March 13th.)

To maintain the Audyssey Pro system performance Audyssey closely monitors all installations via their database at their Los Angeles headquarters. When you have a technology whose calibrated, very high resolution audio performance is so intimately and critically dependent on the consumer's room, it's speaker locations and its seating locations this is the solution the folks at Audyssey felt must to be implemented to maintain the system's performance and integrity.

Patrick Hart

Wow. That's a lot to take in. I'm just not sure what to do with that statement. Are you saying that the initial calibration is etched in stone in the mother data base at Audyssee and if you want to recalibrate, you have to notify them and pay them anywhere from $150 to $300? Please tell me no. What if you buy new equipment, move equpment around, buy new furniture, redecorate you HT, move your HT to another room, buy a new house, move to a new apartment? These are not anomolies. They're things people do everyday. And with us on the forum, we're changing our systems around all the time. I guess I don't get it. Please clarify.
post #132 of 70896
Kal,

"Agreed but I would point out that the ASEq does not implement the actual crossover filters"

Couldn't you make the case that since Audyssey can modify phase and amplitude in the XO region, that the net XO characteristics are determined by it?

Patrick,

Thanks for that very interesting info on Audyssey keys, but I too am not clear on what it means and would appreciate elaboration.

Thanks
post #133 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I have found that (1) I do not get the same objective results with every repetition and that

i have found that as well which i have to admit is somewhat puzzling--nothing changes in the room and i have never got the same results. shouldn't it be at least CLOSE in it's inerpretation?

i think this is what you meant but if not my apologies.

patrick
post #134 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by govner View Post

i have found that as well which i have to admit is somewhat puzzling--nothing changes in the room and i have never got the same results. shouldn't it be at least CLOSE in it's inerpretation?

i think this is what you meant but if not my apologies.

patrick

I have been told by Audyssey that even sounds outside the room can affect the resuts i.e. washing machine, dryer, truck outside etc.
post #135 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhart View Post

Several upcoming (July) Denon receiver's will have software very similar to Audyssey's Sound Equalizer on board. However, this software will only be able to be accessed by a certified Audyssey installer who will do the set-up.

Yes. There is no evidence about how much processing power will be incorporated into these AVRs yet.
post #136 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Kal,

"Agreed but I would point out that the ASEq does not implement the actual crossover filters"

Couldn't you make the case that since Audyssey can modify phase and amplitude in the XO region, that the net XO characteristics are determined by it?

I would say that the the net XO characteristics are influenced by it. The actual crossover, in the case of using the external ASEq, is still in the pre/pro. I do not know the situation for the AVR versions.
post #137 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by govner View Post

i have found that as well which i have to admit is somewhat puzzling--nothing changes in the room and i have never got the same results. shouldn't it be at least CLOSE in it's inerpretation?

i think this is what you meant but if not my apologies.

patrick

It is. Remember, even with multiple measurements per session, small position changes of the microphone can move it into/out of nulls, etc.
post #138 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randybes View Post

I have been told by Audyssey that even sounds outside the room can affect the resuts i.e. washing machine, dryer, truck outside etc.

Yes. I usually turn off the HVAC during measurements.
post #139 of 70896
sounds like the typical sound measuring time when everything gets tuned off except the HT system, including HVAC and fridge, if it's close.
post #140 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

Wow. That's a lot to take in. I'm just not sure what to do with that statement. Are you saying that the initial calibration is etched in stone in the mother data base at Audyssee and if you want to recalibrate, you have to notify them and pay them anywhere from $150 to $300? Please tell me no. What if you buy new equipment, move equpment around, buy new furniture, redecorate you HT, move your HT to another room, buy a new house, move to a new apartment? These are not anomolies. They're things people do everyday. And with us on the forum, we're changing our systems around all the time. I guess I don't get it. Please clarify.

Here's a bit of clarification I received in an email from Audyssey's Mike Thuresson immediately after he saw your quiry>>

"A point to clarify about the MultEQ Pro license keys the installer purchases for the Denon AVRs that work with MultEQ Pro: each key is tied to the MAC address of that receiver and allows unlimited Audyssey calibrations of that unit. So if the customer moves homes, changes the room, etc., the installer does not have to repurchase a key. It's up to the installer to work out a price with the customer on the return visit and recalibration. Feel free to post that as a response on the forum"
post #141 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

small position changes of the microphone can move it into/out of nulls, etc

Yes, that makes the utmost sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by from Audyssey's Mike Thuresson View Post

It's up to the installer to work out a price with the customer on the return visit and recalibration.

So, if one of my kids want to move his seat back or forward by 6 inches or a foot, and I want a recallibration done, I'll have to call in the installer. Somehow, I think that a recallibration is going to run at least $100, probably more like $150 (I live in a high-cost town, and my piano tuner for instance charges $150). Then, if my wife decides she wants to put a tapestry on one of the walls and I want to recallibrate, out comes the installer again, for another $150 or whatever. Then, she decides she doesn't like the tapestry in that room after all....another $150.

I guess Audyssey has made the decision that by being "business-friendly" to installers, the installers are more likely to push Audyssey.

But in my case the policy might just turn me away from a Denon with Audyssey and toward some alternative like Yamaha. We'll see what's on the market toward yearend.
post #142 of 70896
I just don't get this. Is it possible for someone from Audyssey to please come on the forum and explain this. You're obviously paying attention to the threads and we have lot's questions for you. We promise not to bite.
post #143 of 70896
I really don't think Audyssey was aiming this at the DIY market-not the people who would frequent this forum. More the people who would tend to have a higher end set-up that is a set and forget type thing
post #144 of 70896
IMHO Audyssey should provide the option for DIY types to purchase the installer kit.
post #145 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randybes View Post

I really don't think Audyssey was aiming this at the DIY market-not the people who would frequent this forum. More the people who would tend to have a higher end set-up that is a set and forget type thing

To some extent, I would agree with you, especially when it comes to the Pro unit. But the problem is, the only folks I see reviewing this stuff and really taking an interest in it ARE the folks frequenting the forums. Plus, l would think there would be more Denon units with Audyssey in the homes of forum browsers than anywhere else. Maybe that's just my perspective though.
post #146 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

To some extent, I would agree with you, especially when it comes to the Pro unit. But the problem is, the only folks I see reviewing this stuff and really taking an interest in it ARE the folks frequenting the forums. Plus, l would think there would be more Denon units with Audyssey in the homes of forum browsers than anywhere else. Maybe that's just my perspective though.

I am not sure if that is there motive, just my impressions from training I went to. They seemed interested in suggestions so I would suggest you contact them via their web site. Perhaps Patrick can shed some light on their decision to go through a dealer installed network.

Just to add a little to those who have not read Kal's review. There are NO controls on the unit itself other than bypass or engage. That is it so it really does need the installer kit with a PC. I personally would prefer that you be able to have more than one "curve" available (flat, Audyssey 1, etc) but I got the impression that they believe that the curve selected by the installer should fit the room and not the material.
post #147 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

To some extent, I would agree with you, especially when it comes to the Pro unit. But the problem is, the only folks I see reviewing this stuff and really taking an interest in it ARE the folks frequenting the forums.

I think most of the market for the ASEq is invisible to us because it consists of those with large custom-installed systems. Perhaps some of the installers on this board might comment on this.
post #148 of 70896
"IMHO Audyssey should provide the option for DIY types to purchase the installer kit."

I can see where Audyssey might be concerned about technical support costs if selling to end users, but from what I've read it doesn't sound that complex to set up.

Would you agree, Kal?
post #149 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Would you agree, Kal?

Definitely. An informed and dedicated consumer/user would likely get results equal or superior to those obtained by the typical installer working on the clock.
post #150 of 70896
I really think that allowing end-users to buy the install kit would help Audyssey's business, not hurt it.

I think the kit sells for $325. The "typical" HT buyer is going to prefer having a professional install, because it will save him trouble, and probably cost less.

Whereas the "dedicated" (as Kal put it) DIYer might be willing to spend the $325, and more time, to know that he has done the procedure "right", and to retain the flexibility to re-callibrate without additional cost for different furniture positions, new furniture, new decorations or room treatments, etc.

Some forum members clearly don't even want the Audyssey if they can't do their own callibration. Witness a post just yesterday on this thread, post #126....after learning that an installer would need to be called in to do any recallibration, he posted "Well. Takes the fun out of it. I am out of here."

How many other customers might Audyssey lose with its "installer-only" policy on the Audyssey Sound Equalizer and the forthcoming Denon products? And how many might it gain, both directly and indirectly, if it allowed end-users to buy the install kit? By indirectly gain customers, I mean that people like those on this forum, who given the chance to callibrate themselves, would purchase an Audyssey (or Denon/Audyssey), and then spread the good word about Audyssey to friends and readers of this and other forums.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)