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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 6

post #151 of 70909
Agreed. In fact, is there any reason why it has to be fully one way or the other? Why not have it both ways, as you do with all other AV equipment. Say projectors for instance.

The super high-end types with dedicated theaters will contract the whole setup out period. With them time is money and they don't have the time nor the patience to be worried about tinkering with HT stuff...and they have the funds to contract with someone else to do it for them. All they want to do is walk in the room when it's all done, turn a few knobs and buttons and the whole system comes to life.

Then there's those that will purchase the PJ, perhaps send it to a specialist [William Phelps re:JVC] or have one come over to help set it up, get some much needed info on maintenance, and from that point they're on thier own...unless they decide, down the road to call someone and ask for additional calibration.

Still others may take the same projector right out of the box, use their own "know-how" to hook it up and away they go. All camps are happy and the world lives to fight another day.

The last 2 camps to me are the DIY'ers who make up the majority of the population of this and other forums..

I'm probably simplifying things here but if it works that way with all other AV gear, why can't it work with the Audyssey equpiment.
post #152 of 70909
Exactly. Audyssey could do something like what I noticed JVC did with its latest DILA PJ....offer two models, one a "pro" model for installers, and another sold to end users. The only apparent difference is the model number and the color of the outside casing.
post #153 of 70909
so maybe the question is.....what does it take to become an installer....even if it's in relation to your own equipment?
post #154 of 70909
just to set the record straight with you guys...and with the Audyssey guys that may be veiwing this thread, I don't mean to be a PITA about this. I'm an audiophile from way back. I am intensly interested in this equpiment but I frankly don't think there is anything an installer can do for me that I can't do for myself.
post #155 of 70909
This is just my .02
The Denon products will still have the abillity to use the Audyssey correction with the user supllied mic. but you can do way more indepth correction and tweaks with the installer kit.
I got this info from the Audyssey rep at the EHX show.

I have also used the Audyssey installer kit....(a friend of mine has one) and it really is very straight forward, if you are computer savey and an avid DIYer.

Hope this helps

later
RayJr
post #156 of 70909
I can understand why Audyssey might want to market their standalone unit to the same general public who could not set the clocks on their VCR's, but most of the people who frequent this forum have considerable more technical expertise than most. This would be a perfect product for AVS to sell, if Audyssey would permit it.
post #157 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by mraub View Post

I can understand why Audyssey might want to market their standalone unit to the same general public who could not set the clocks on their VCR's, but most of the people who frequent this forum have considerable more technical expertise than most. This would be a perfect product for AVS to sell, if Audyssey would permit it.

Speaking off the top of my empty head, I think it may have to do with making sure that Audyssey gets good support from both the custom installers (for the ASEq and the AVRs with Pro capability) and the large manufacturers of AVRs. If there was an easy ability to add-on Audyssey to an otherwise competitive product, the latter might not want to license it. If you could DIY, the latter might not be interested.
post #158 of 70909
Why can't they do it the same way they're doing with VPs in AVRs? As best as I can tell, the fact that they are DIY doesn't appear to be holding up interest from manufacturers or installers.
post #159 of 70909
"...large manufacturers of AVRs. If there was an easy ability to add-on Audyssey to an otherwise competitive product, the latter might not want to license it. If you could DIY, the latter might not be interested."

I'm really not clear what you're saying. Mfgr's wouldn't want it because it's too easy? Anyway, what does that have to do with selling the ASEq installer kit to end users?

I also think the impact on installer jobs would be small and they'd sell a lot more of them to folks like us.
post #160 of 70909
Just thought of a way, albeit a bit klutzy, to not have to give up one of the surround back channels if you have two subs - get an electronic XO and biamp the front L/R with the subs, set them to Large and Sub/LFE to off.

A good quality pro audio XO can be gotten on ebay for <$100, Rane, Behringer, etc.
post #161 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"...large manufacturers of AVRs. If there was an easy ability to add-on Audyssey to an otherwise competitive product, the latter might not want to license it. If you could DIY, the latter might not be interested."

I'm really not clear what you're saying. Mfgr's wouldn't want it because it's too easy? Anyway, what does that have to do with selling the ASEq installer kit to end users?

Mmanufacturers might not want to license it if it was competing directly with the superior standalone.

Quote:


I also think the impact on installer jobs would be small and they'd sell a lot more of them to folks like us.

I agree.
post #162 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlb View Post

Does Audyssey provide a parameter (i.e., will it work) for setups where there is a center, two fronts, and 2 surrounds; but no sub? My wife doesn't want another speaker in the room, and my fronts/amp provide excellent/clean coverage to 30Hz (they will actually go down to about 26 Hz).

I may be beating a dead horse here, but I'm not sure this query and a couple of others regarding two-channel versus surround operation with a single Audyssey setup were fully addressed.

I'm assuming here that the Audyssey implementation in AVR equipment is some subset of the Audyssey Sound EQ Pro (that I am familiar with). I think that is a good assumption and makes the following universally applicable. I make the implications of this assumption clear later in case this assumption is not corred.

The Audyssey system optimizes each channel individually. Hence it does not matter which channels you use or for what purpose, each is improved (assuming you like the flatter response and the high-frequency roll-off that you select or that Audyssey selects). You can use the center and surrounds or not as you please. Whichever channels you use will each be "corrected." This includes the sub.

There may be one exception to the above. At least in the Sound EQ Pro, Audyssey recommends a crossover for each of your channels. You can use that crossover frequency, or tell the box you want to (or must) use another frequency. The later may be the case where your AVR or pre/pro does not allow a different crossover frequency for each channel or doesn't offer the crossover frequency that Audyssey recommends. In any event, Audyssey (Pro version at least) will make some adjustments to the various channels and the sub channel to get the best blend across the crossover transition at whatever crossover frequency you choose.

Hence those "adjustments" may remain in the filters when you change the receiver settings, for instance, when you switch the sub off and set the mains to Large for two-channel listening. You may be listening to mains that have some filter settings that are optimal when the sub is in use, but not optimal when you switch the sub off and run the mains Large. I suspect that the "adjustment" is small, but if you are a purist, you might not be happy with this situation.

If the AVR installations are really smart, the adjustment for smooth transition to the sub will be switched out (or a filter set without that adjustment switched in) when you turn the sub off or set the mains or any other channel to large. I'm not sure the AVR implementations have that complexity. I doubt it. Heck, I don't even know if the AVR implementations even have the transition smoothing that is included in the Sound EQ Pro.

The Sound EQ Pro obviously leaves the transition smoothing in at all times because it has only one set of filters and has no clue what your AVR or pre/pro settings are or when you change them. One would have to have the Sound EQ Pro re-calibrated to remove the transition adjustments (probably by simply not having a channel labeled "subwoofer"). Personally, I find the transitions so smooth that I rarely turn the bass management off. When I have, I could not hear any influence of that adjustment on the mains.

Incidentally, like many others, I found that Audyssey wiped out a large room gain or something like that that had been giving my sub a major boost. The sub seemed weak after the setup. I've pretty much gotten use to having a proper amount of bass as intended by the CD or DVD maker, but have on occasion cranked up the sub to get some extra low-end punch, particularly on DVDs where that is part of the charm. Doing this does provide a bit of a step across the crossover frequency, but at least the sub frequency range is relatively flat rather than exhibiting some room anomaly that only makes the sub loud because of a peak in its response.
post #163 of 70909
Kal,

I just re-read your review in Stereophile

http://www.stereophile.com/musicintheround/307mitr/

which includes reference to Ethan Winer's measurements of Audyssey

http://www.realtraps.com/art_audyssey.htm

Your CSD plots show reduced decay time and seem to confirm Audyssey's claims of corrrecting time domain behavior (I was surprised that you didn't comment on this), whereas Ethan's plots do not.

Can you reconcile these results?

Thanks
post #164 of 70909
There must be some combination of the sub's EQ, the mic position, and the sub gain setting that will 'trick' Audyssey into not reducing the low hz (10-50? hz) bass notes.

If it doesn't hear those notes at the same db, won't it leave them alone or even boost them?

That being said, I think the last time I ran Audyssey with my sub gain turned WAY down, it didn't help the low end at all. Anyone had any luck?
post #165 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by [SS]Shooter View Post

There must be some combination of the sub's EQ, the mic position, and the sub gain setting that will 'trick' Audyssey into not reducing the low hz (10-50? hz) bass notes.

That being said, I think the last time I ran Audyssey with my sub gain turned WAY down, it didn't help the low end at all. Anyone had any luck?

My understanding is that in the case of the Sound EQ Pro, and probably in the AVR incarnations, Audyssey doesn't try to flatten the sub response all the way down to 10 or 15 or even 20 Hz. The problem is that cone travel at these frequencies becomes huge if one tries to maintain a flat response and can very easily exceed the driver's Xmech (the cone excursion that bottoms the voice coil form or shreds the surround or spyder). Many commercial subs already push the limit of their drivers and may even have roll-off to protect the driver at the lowest frequencies. This is often called a "subsonic filter." If the Audyssey filters were to push gain up significantly in the region where a sub is already near its Xmech limit, the result could easily be a failed sub and a bad rap for Audyssey.

A sub also exceeds its Xmax (linear range) before it hits Xmech (destruction limit). If pushing the sub harder at the low end does get you more bass without destruction, one cost of that bass is some distortion from exceeding Xmax. I've never found this to be a significant problem, but I do try to stay close to Xmax and that can mean some sacrifice in bass below 30 Hz.

In my own system, the Audyssey Pro flattened my sub response down to about 30 Hz and let it roll-off from there. I don't know how much of the response at 20 Hz is from Audyssey, how much is inherent in the sub, and how much is room gain, but it's more than adequate (down about 5 db).

And, as I've noted in previous posts, in my case Audyssey removed a fat 10db mountain between about 35 and 65 Hz. That was, of course, the right thing to do, but, it sure made my sub sound weak. The solution to the apparent weakness was a combination of 1) get used to the proper amount of bass (flat down to 30 and down only about 5 db at 20) and 2) crank up the sub gain in my pre/pro to my liking (3 to 4 db was enough).

In the image links below you will find both vented and closed subwoofer cone excursion plots. In both cases there are two 15" drivers with 235 watts applied to each. The red line is the driver Xmax. This particular driver has very little margin between Xmax and Xmech so I have to be careful about over driving them. Notice that the drivers are above Xmax and probably close to Xmech in the closed box case. If Audyssey were to push output up below about 30 Hz to flatten my room response, the result could be catastrophic for this sub. In the vented case, there is some margin down to about 17 Hz, but not much. Below 17 Hz this sub is at risk even without any kind of EQ. Since it's a vented box, it rolls off dramatically starting at 25 Hz and would need a lot of boost to compensate for that roll-off. That boost would be fatal for this sub if any content below about 20 Hz were to come through the system. This sub needs a subsonic filter as it is and should not be EQ'd below about 30Hz.

I hope this helps. Let me know.
LL
LL
post #166 of 70909
I got some info recently that at least one Audyssey implementation guages a sub's capability by its LF rolloff and will only correct from that point and above.

The trouble with this is it's one size fits all; someone may get multiple subs, but the rolloff point remains the same even thouigh the capacity to deal with boost has increased.

A way to deal with this would be to "trick" Audyssey by preboosting the low end with an LT circuit, EQ, etc.
post #167 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by mraub View Post

I can understand why Audyssey might want to market their standalone unit to the same general public who could not set the clocks on their VCR's, but most of the people who frequent this forum have considerable more technical expertise than most. This would be a perfect product for AVS to sell, if Audyssey would permit it.

The problem is there are people that could program it themselves, and then there are people that think they can program it themselves. Audyssey doesnt want to become a tech support nightmare.

DIYers do not represent the majority of people that would invest in a product like this.
post #168 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by [SS]Shooter View Post

There must be some combination of the sub's EQ, the mic position, and the sub gain setting that will 'trick' Audyssey into not reducing the low hz (10-50? hz) bass notes.

If it doesn't hear those notes at the same db, won't it leave them alone or even boost them?

That being said, I think the last time I ran Audyssey with my sub gain turned WAY down, it didn't help the low end at all. Anyone had any luck?



I think you could do something like this if you have a sub with enough built-in EQ control. For instance, some of the SVS subs have considerable flexibility in setting the SPL response (plugging ports and switching in filters). You could set the SVS with low or minimum EQ, let Audyssey do its thing, and then add-in low-end EQ'ing to your taste.

If you are using an Audyssey Sound EQ Pro and can see the "after" response, you would know how much boost you need and where. With that and a careful read of the SVS manual, you could conceivably bring up just the low end where it's needed. Hopefully you would have no effect on sub phase or gain up in the crossover region where Audyssey has provided a good blend and flat in-room response.

The trick is having some low-end EQ that you keep in reserve and add-in below 30 Hz after Audyssey has taken care of things above 30 Hz.

Again, you have to respect the limits of your sub driver, but if Audyssey really doesn't change the gain below about 30 Hz (only phase), then you are fairly safe to add your own if it's done with an EQ that is built into the sub and presumably won't destroy the sub.

I don't take credit for the above. I recall seeing something similar in an earlier post.
post #169 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

My understanding is that in the case of the Sound EQ Pro, and probably in the AVR incarnations, Audyssey doesn't try to flatten the sub response all the way down to 10 or 15 or even 20 Hz. The problem is that cone travel at these frequencies becomes huge if one tries to maintain a flat response and can very easily exceed the driver's Xmech (the cone excursion that bottoms the voice coil form or shreds the surround or spyder). Many commercial subs already push the limit of their drivers and may even have roll-off to protect the driver at the lowest frequencies. This is often called a "subsonic filter." If the Audyssey filters were to push gain up significantly in the region where a sub is already near its Xmech limit, the result could easily be a failed sub and a bad rap for Audyssey.

A sub also exceeds its Xmax (linear range) before it hits Xmech (destruction limit). If pushing the sub harder at the low end does get you more bass without destruction, one cost of that bass is some distortion from exceeding Xmax. I've never found this to be a significant problem, but I do try to stay close to Xmax and that can mean some sacrifice in bass below 30 Hz.

In my own system, the Audyssey Pro flattened my sub response down to about 30 Hz and let it roll-off from there. I don't know how much of the response at 20 Hz is from Audyssey, how much is inherent in the sub, and how much is room gain, but it's more than adequate (down about 5 db).

And, as I've noted in previous posts, in my case Audyssey removed a fat 10db mountain between about 35 and 65 Hz. That was, of course, the right thing to do, but, it sure made my sub sound weak. The solution to the apparent weakness was a combination of 1) get used to the proper amount of bass (flat down to 30 and down only about 5 db at 20) and 2) crank up the sub gain in my pre/pro to my liking (3 to 4 db was enough).

In the image links below you will find both vented and closed subwoofer cone excursion plots. In both cases there are two 15" drivers with 235 watts applied to each. The red line is the driver Xmax. This particular driver has very little margin between Xmax and Xmech so I have to be careful about over driving them. Notice that the drivers are above Xmax and probably close to Xmech in the closed box case. If Audyssey were to push output up below about 30 Hz to flatten my room response, the result could be catastrophic for this sub. In the vented case, there is some margin down to about 17 Hz, but not much. Below 17 Hz this sub is at risk even without any kind of EQ. Since it's a vented box, it rolls off dramatically starting at 25 Hz and would need a lot of boost to compensate for that roll-off. That boost would be fatal for this sub if any content below about 20 Hz were to come through the system. This sub needs a subsonic filter as it is and should not be EQ'd below about 30Hz.

I hope this helps. Let me know.

Nice post. Thanks for the info.
post #170 of 70909
Phil Hinton et al of the UK AVForum did a fairly extensive review of the Audyssey on the AV Forum podcast a week or so ago. May want to check it out. Ther was a lot of talk about how flattening the room out can cause the bass response to go kind've flat. They talked around it but didn't get to what I would consider "the meat" of the issue. Still, the discussion was a good one.

One of the neat things about HT is having the ability to tune your system the way YOU like it. While I appreciate the technology of the Audyssey....and probably will buy one, I'm a little worried that I'll be getting this wonderful piece of gear that is also somewhat police-ive and inflexible toward those that simply like the bass pumped up a bit. Of course, the trade-off may be worth it. Having not heard one yet, I'm going to withhold judgement and see how things turn out.
post #171 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

One of the neat things about HT is having the ability to tune your system the way YOU like it.

It seems to me that still holds true with Audyssey. Once it has done the heavy lifting it seems to be quite tweakable from there. What I wonder is why for movies Front EQ sounds so much better than Audyssey to me with the Denon 2807. I wonder if the greater the difference in quality between the fronts and surrounds the more Front EQ takes advantage of that difference.
post #172 of 70909
If they make the software available for the AVR-4306, i would buy it for a reasonable price.

it gets the most out of the unit this stuff.

don't know why it is not there allready or standard in the box when i did buy this unit.
post #173 of 70909
"with Audyssey. Once it has done the heavy lifting it seems to be quite tweakable from there."

How?

Seems to me the only thing you can do is try varying mike positions and hope you get something you like better than what you just had.
post #174 of 70909
I hate saying this....especially since I have not heard the unit yet. But is it possible that the Audyssey is biased toward THX?
post #175 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

I hate saying this....especially since I have not heard the unit yet. But is it possible that the Audyssey is biased toward THX?

Well, their ideas on frequency response are not too different but you can choose flat response if you prefer.
post #176 of 70909
My Marantz receiver SR8001 is a couple of month old now. The speaker configuration is 6.1. After running Audyssey several times there is no equalization applied to the back surround speaker. Audyssey does recognize the speaker thou, because it applies distance etc. to it. Any ideas what am I doing wrong?
post #177 of 70909
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanVlna View Post

After running Audyssey several times there is no equalization applied to the back surround speaker. Audyssey does recognize the speaker thou, because it applies distance etc. to it. Any ideas what am I doing wrong?

For starters, how do you know that Audyssey isn't equalizing the speaker?
post #178 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by javry View Post

...is it possible that the Audyssey is biased toward THX?

Just because Tomlinson Holman helped create Audyssey and THX doesn't mean that.... well, maybe it does.

Sanjay
post #179 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundlovr View Post

For starters, how do you know that Audyssey isn't equalizing the speaker?

I can bring up a screen to check settings after Audyssey was done calculating and the results were all zeros for the back surround speaker. But after I came home from work yesterday I found out we had a power outage at my house sometimes during the day. I checked the speaker settings and they were all off. Distance for example was 4.64 m for all speakers. I ran the Audyssey again last night and that fixed it all, even the equalization for the back surround speaker. Problem solved.
post #180 of 70909
We do not have a dedicated home theater room--it's a large family room that opens up into a dining room and a library.

Generally, most people sit within a fairly small area ten to thirteen feet from the front speakers. However, we have one lone wolf that likes to watch and listen from the dining room table way at the rear--maybe 25 feet from the speakers...

So in order to provide benefits to all listeners, the Audyssey Sound Equalizer would need to create a large T-shaped sound bubble. Is it capable of producing such a large sweet spot?

Thanks.

C.
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