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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 680

post #20371 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

One related issue is that AudysseyPro will sometimes offer a different hierarchy of crossover frequencies for the two speakers of a pair (FR vs. FL, SR vs. SL, for examples) even though the AVR or prepro can only set this frequency by pair. If so, one can have AudysseyPro generate projected results for each option and the user can determine which single setting gives a better combined result before downloading and inserting the settings. Notice, one needs to do this before one leaves AudysseyPro as the actual filters generated are influenced by the choice.

Good point. This is done in the vain hope that one day we will have crossovers optimized for each speaker... If it does happen, the manual recommends using the highest of the two as the common choice for the pair.
post #20372 of 70902
I just got a new receiver with this feature, but I'm not sure about the cross-over frequency settings. Does Audyssey decide that, or do I manully input that? I have small speakers, and after I ran the setup, they are set to 250 for the front, and 200 for the center and rear/surround in the crossover settings. That seems really high, is that normal? I have no idea what those numbers where before I rean the setup. I'm looking for some info on here, but man, there's just too many pages.
post #20373 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brettzies View Post

.... I'm not sure about the cross-over frequency settings. Does Audyssey decide that, or do I manully input that? I have small speakers, and after I ran the setup, they are set to 250 for the front, and 200 for the center and rear/surround in the crossover settings. That seems really high, is that normal? ...

Once you run auto setup, calculate and store, that should do it and your AVR will use those xovers. Just follow the instructions in your OM. Now all you have to do is give a listen.

Yeah, small speakers often get high xovers. Some folks move them up closer to a wall to try to get better bass response. Your sub should pick up the slack. Oh, yeah reset the sub channel "xover"/LFE LPF from 80 to 120 in the AVR when you get a chance. And just for fun, read the setup guide referenced in the first thread if you haven't already.
post #20374 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Once you run auto setup, calculate and store, that should do it and your AVR will use those xovers. Just follow the instructions in your OM. Now all you have to do is give a listen.

Yeah, small speakers often get high xovers. Some folks move them up closer to a wall to try to get better bass response. Your sub should pick up the slack. Oh, yeah reset the sub channel "xover"/LFE LPF from 80 to 120 in the AVR when you get a chance. And just for fun, read the setup guide referenced in the first thread if you haven't already.

Thanks for the info. Good to know. I did download the setup guide and have been checking it out.
post #20375 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brettzies View Post

I just got a new receiver with this feature, but I'm not sure about the cross-over frequency settings. Does Audyssey decide that, or do I manully input that? I have small speakers, and after I ran the setup, they are set to 250 for the front, and 200 for the center and rear/surround in the crossover settings. That seems really high, is that normal? I have no idea what those numbers where before I rean the setup. I'm looking for some info on here, but man, there's just too many pages.

Hi Brettzies,


Can you specify the brand and model no. of each of your speakers? Sure you are aware that "small" is not related to the physical dimensions of the speakers, eh?
post #20376 of 70902
So my sub is in getting repaired - I think I bottomed it out playing dark Knight and dented the dust cap which is apparently the cuprit for the weird noise it's making. The repair shop is going to try and undent it and test to see if the nosie is still there.

When I ran this program the first time it set my sub to -6dB - is that fine or do i need to get it closer to zero? Will that let me increase the volume without damaging the sub or is it just a limitation of the sub (DSP-3100)?

My xovesr for my cinema 330's at the fronts are 100hz to 120hz - is this fine or should i manually move them to 80hz? What will this accomplish, if anything?

I am new to this. MY AVR is Denon 1610
post #20377 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi Brettzies,


Can you specify the brand and model no. of each of your speakers? Sure you are aware that "small" is not related to the physical dimensions of the speakers, eh?

They are part of a 5.1 set I got years ago. Sony VE315. The manual says to set them as small and I'm pretty sure they don't do much if any bass of their own. Thanks for the question though. I wouldn't doubt that people get confused with the actual size vs the ability to produce a range of sounds.
post #20378 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brettzies View Post

They are part of a 5.1 set I got years ago. Sony VE315. The manual says to set them as small and I'm pretty sure they don't do much if any bass of their own. Thanks for the question though. I wouldn't doubt that people get confused with the actual size vs the ability to produce a range of sounds.

I googled in on your Sony set, coz I was not familiar with this model, but, Boy, I surely think these speakers are "too small" for an AVR like the Denon 2310 power house with front/rear and center all rated at 90Hz -20kHz and having the size of a family size matchbox. Any plan to upgrade to some speaker set to match the Denon? Just curious!
post #20379 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by QN52 View Post

So my sub is in getting repaired - I think I bottomed it out playing dark Knight and dented the dust cap which is apparently the cuprit for the weird noise it's making. The repair shop is going to try and undent it and test to see if the nosie is still there.

When I ran this program the first time it set my sub to -6dB - is that fine or do i need to get it closer to zero? Will that let me increase the volume without damaging the sub or is it just a limitation of the sub (DSP-3100)?

My xovesr for my cinema 330's at the fronts are 100hz to 120hz - is this fine or should i manually move them to 80hz? What will this accomplish, if anything?

I am new to this. MY AVR is Denon 1610

If you are referring to the -6dB being the trim setting for the sub channel, you are good to go. That setting balances the sub with the other channels, and will neither damage your sub nor prevent you from cranking up the master volume and damaging it.
post #20380 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

I better jump in first before you start getting advice about moving furniture, holding your breath during measurements, and other tweaks

The fast track method is to simply connect the mic, place it in the center of your listening area and start MultEQ. Then move it to the left about 2' and measure again. Then to the right of the center spot about 2'. After that move forward about 2' and take three more measurements parallel to the first three. If you have time take the last two near the first center one (about 1' apart).

Try to avoid placing the mic near walls and in seats that are off to the side (even if people will listen from there).

Before you start set the lowpass filter on your sub to the highest frequency it allows and leave it there permanently. Set the level on the back of the sub to just below the midpoint so that the 1610 doesn't run out of range trying to set the level internally.

Finally, when finished go to the Audyssey settings and look for Dynamic EQ Reference Offset. It is set to 0 by default because that is correct for movies. But, for video games that are not mixed at film reference you will most likely have to set the offset to 10.

That should do it. Let us know how it works out.

Chris sorry for butting in to someone elses post but I cannot find an Audyssey settings option in my Onkyo 906 for Dynamic EQ reference offset. Am I missing something here? It just gives me Equalizer settings 1. Multi Eq Xt 2. Dynamic EQ 3. Dynamic volume light. 4. Dynamic volume heavy. I must admit I dont really understand 3 or 4 and the effect they would have on the curve. I know If i select THX it has a more flat response but thats not in the Equalizer thats the sound preference. Any Chance you can enlighten me here please.
Justin
post #20381 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

I googled in on your Sony set, coz I was not familiar with this model, but, Boy, I surely think these speakers are "too small" for an AVR like the Denon 2310 power house with front/rear and center all rated at 90Hz -20kHz and having the size of a family size matchbox. Any plan to upgrade to some speaker set to match the Denon? Just curious!

LOL. They work fine for me right now. I had a hard enough time just deciding on the avr. Now I'll have to research speakers . I honestly don't know much about all the numbers, but if I get better speakers, I'd probably have to move to really take advantage of them. I wanted the receiver mainly for getting everything to play right together and future upgrades. My old one was dieing. I guess I'll check the 2310 thread for some speaker recommendations, but what are "good" number ratings. 90hz -20khz doesn't mean anything to me.
post #20382 of 70902
Brett, you should realize that you have entered a rarefied audiphile/videophile community. The AVF speaker forums are a great source of info on good but inexpensive speakers, once you decide to look into it.

Mogorf, shame on you! Let the man listen to his new system. And sneeze into your sleeve so you don't give the man upgradosis!
post #20383 of 70902
Not really sure what to properly call this configuration, but I have my Denon AVR4810 Surround "A" speakers at 90 degrees from center, and a pair of Surround "B" speakers at 120 degrees. These were first used with my old Denon 5803A which had dedicated binding posts (and volume level adjustments) for both "A" and "B" Surrounds.

With the AVR4810, the Surround "B"s are matrixed (through an external 2-channel Amp) from the Surround "A" pre-outs. I have had to manually adjust with my SPL meter, both the left to right balance, then set a "relative" volume level of the Surround "B"s to match the Surround "A"s. Once having the external Amp's controls established, I then ran Audyssey DSX to calibrate the entire system. I now have 15 speakers (2 pairs of Front Heights each, for Left and Right) plus the Sunfire Sub all creating a really pleasant, immersive soundfield. Sonically, I feel like a Goldfish swimming around in an aquarium right now. Thank you Audyssey!!!

Just finished watching the Blu-ray of Amadeus, and I could swear I was sitting in Seat 15H in the Opera Hall.

Raybo
post #20384 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Brett, you should realize that you have entered a rarefied audiphile/videophile community. The AVF speaker forums are a great source of info on good but inexpensive speakers, once you decide to look into it.

Mogorf, shame on you! Let the man listen to his new system. And sneeze into your sleeve so you don't give the man upgradosis!

All my heartful apologies to Brett! Or maybe it's too late, ...after entering the Arena there is no way out!! Take care!
post #20385 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

If you are referring to the -6dB being the trim setting for the sub channel, you are good to go. That setting balances the sub with the other channels, and will neither damage your sub nor prevent you from cranking up the master volume and damaging it.


Okay - I wonder why my sub bottomed out then, I guess I just had the MV too loud for the sub? I think it was only at -15 or -20db though on the main volume?

The sub is a paradigm DSP 3100, AVR is Denon 1610 and LCR are Cinema 330 and rears are cinema 90s. Could it be an issue with the receiver not being powerful enough for everything?

Thanks all.
post #20386 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by QN52 View Post

Okay - I wonder why my sub bottomed out then, I guess I just had the MV too loud for the sub? I think it was only at -15 or -20db though on the main volume?

The sub is a paradigm DSP 3100, AVR is Denon 1610 and LCR are Cinema 330 and rears are cinema 90s. Could it be an issue with the receiver not being powerful enough for everything?

Thanks all.

Well, the sub is self-powered, right? So it would not be the receiver that is not powerful enough. My guess is that your sub can't keep up with your system at the level you were listening and it's either bottoming as you say, or the sub amp is clipping. My vote is on the bottoming.

I can relate. When Iron Man came out on Blu-ray I found that it sounded great until Stark stomps out of the cave and terrible noises came from my sub. Terrible. For a while I turned the master volume down at that scene and then back up after it. Finally, I bought a second sub and am now loving life in the theater.
post #20387 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Well, the sub is self-powered, right? So it would not be the receiver that is not powerful enough. My guess is that your sub can't keep up with your system at the level you were listening and it's either bottoming as you say, or the sub amp is clipping. My vote is on the bottoming.

I can relate. When Iron Man came out on Blu-ray I found that it sounded great until Stark stomps out of the cave and terrible noises came from my sub. Terrible. For a while I turned the master volume down at that scene and then back up after it. Finally, I bought a second sub and am now loving life in the theater.

My old Sub was bottoming out heaps. Until last week when I got the Sunfire Flagship Sub the Signature TS EQ 12 this little 13 inch square dude has two cones/drivers and is 2700 watts with a tracking downconverter. The two cones work like an exhaust one draws in the other pumps out. They are rated to move an inch and three quaters with 150 pounds pressure. So in theory you could lay it on its side put a board over the cone and have someone under 150 pounds stand on it and crank it and it would bounce them up and down an inch and a half!! LOL This little beauty goes down to 16 hz. I set it all up and started pumping out the Black Eyed Peas, I thought yeah thats nice deep bass very tidy and accurate not boomy. That was until i went upstairs and noticed everything on my bathroom shelves had rattled off on to the floor LOL. I would like 2 but dont need 2 and at 5000 Australian clams each 2 isnt really justified. Yeah I know this is an Audyssey thread please forgive me, subs came up and i just got this so had to tell you guys about it.
Justin
post #20388 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Well, the sub is self-powered, right? So it would not be the receiver that is not powerful enough. My guess is that your sub can't keep up with your system at the level you were listening and it's either bottoming as you say, or the sub amp is clipping. My vote is on the bottoming.

I can relate. When Iron Man came out on Blu-ray I found that it sounded great until Stark stomps out of the cave and terrible noises came from my sub. Terrible. For a while I turned the master volume down at that scene and then back up after it. Finally, I bought a second sub and am now loving life in the theater.

Likely - just the guy at store said i should be able to 'shake my house' with this sub so i am just trying to ensure i had my system calibrated properly. oh well

edit - am i also correct in setting my sub's frequency cutoff on the sub itself to 'bypass' and i assume this lets the avr handle the crossovers - thanks.
post #20389 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invictus 14 View Post

Chris sorry for butting in to someone elses post but I cannot find an Audyssey settings option in my Onkyo 906 for Dynamic EQ reference offset. Am I missing something here? It just gives me Equalizer settings 1. Multi Eq Xt 2. Dynamic EQ 3. Dynamic volume light. 4. Dynamic volume heavy. I must admit I dont really understand 3 or 4 and the effect they would have on the curve. I know If i select THX it has a more flat response but thats not in the Equalizer thats the sound preference. Any Chance you can enlighten me here please.
Justin

The Onkyo X06 series does not support Dynamic EQ Reference Offset. You have to use Intellivolume to adjust the input levels of music and tv to allow Dynamic EQ to operate effectively with non-movie sources. Try a search on "Intellivolume" in this thread for more information.

Dynamic Volume doesn't affect the curve per se. It works with Dynamic EQ and MultEQ XT to equalize loud and soft sounds (very simple explanation).
post #20390 of 70902
Hiya Bluesky thanks mate, I have stumbled across Intelli volume and sort of adjust it to my suited tasted usuallu +3 for cable satellite tv, about +6 for music and around +5 for movies, all based on source.
Thanks
post #20391 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by QN52 View Post

Likely - just the guy at store said i should be able to 'shake my house' with this sub so i am just trying to ensure i had my system calibrated properly. oh well

He's in sales, right?

Quote:


edit - am i also correct in setting my sub's frequency cutoff on the sub itself to 'bypass' and i assume this lets the avr handle the crossovers - thanks.

The manual doesn't seem clear on that. Fig 3 is what you should be using for hookup. Beyond that, I looked at the product sheet and saw that it does have a bypass option, so yes use it. I'd also set the phase to "+".
post #20392 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invictus 14 View Post

Hiya Bluesky thanks mate, I have stumbled across Intelli volume and sort of adjust it to my suited tasted usuallu +3 for cable satellite tv, about +6 for music and around +5 for movies, all based on source.
Thanks

Well, if that is how you LIKE it (preference vs reference), OK, but understand that you have thrown off calibration of your system for movies. The following explanation may be off a little, but hopefully it will make sense.

When you calibrate your system with Audyssey, reference level for movies is set at 0 dB on the volume knob. Intellivolume default is 0 dB. By setting Intellivolume at +5 dB for movies, you have effectively moved reference level to -5 dB on the volume knob. The proper operation of Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume is geared to 0 dB on the volume knob. With Intellivolume at 0 dB, everything is as it should be for movies. But with Intellivolume set at +5 dB for movies, proper operation of Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume is incorrect for movies. Remember, these functions were designed for movies. Use of Intellivolume is a work around for non-movie sources.

Boomy bass and overly loud surrounds is a common complaint with non-movie sources when Dynamic EQ is used. Intellivolume is usually set to about -10 dB for music so that when you turn the volume up louder to compensate, Dynamic EQ sees that you are closer to 0 dB on teh volume knob and applies less bass and surround channel boost.

You really should do a search on Intellivolume as there has been a lot written and discussed here about how to use Intellivolume to optimize playback with Dynamic EQ for non-movie sources. Intellivolume should not be used to just make things louder. That's what the volume knob is for.
post #20393 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Well, if that is how you LIKE it (preference vs reference), OK, but understand that you have thrown off calibration of your system for movies. The following explanation may be off a little, but hopefully it will make sense.

When you calibrate your system with Audyssey, reference level for movies is set at 0 dB on the volume knob. Intellivolume default is 0 dB. By setting Intellivolume at +5 dB for movies, you have effectively moved reference level to -5 dB on the volume knob. The proper operation of Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume is geared to 0 dB on the volume knob. With Intellivolume at 0 dB, everything is as it should be for movies. But with Intellivolume set at +5 dB for movies, proper operation of Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume is incorrect for movies. Remember, these functions were designed for movies. Use of Intellivolume is a work around for non-movie sources.

Boomy bass and overly loud surrounds is a common complaint with non-movie sources when Dynamic EQ is used. Intellivolume is usually set to about -10 dB for music so that when you turn the volume up louder to compensate, Dynamic EQ sees that you are closer to 0 dB on teh volume knob and applies less bass and surround channel boost.

You really should do a search on Intellivolume as there has been a lot written and discussed here about how to use Intellivolume to optimize playback with Dynamic EQ for non-movie sources. Intellivolume should not be used to just make things louder. That's what the volume knob is for.

Thanks very much Bluesky I will do a search and have a read into it. That was great explanation there appreciate it.
post #20394 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

He's in sales, right?


The manual doesn't seem clear on that. Fig 3 is what you should be using for hookup. Beyond that, I looked at the product sheet and saw that it does have a bypass option, so yes use it. I'd also set the phase to "+".



thanks. i agree he's in sales, however it wasmy choice to upgrade to dsp3100- he originallyhad me wiht a pdr-10from paradigm.

oh well - i can live with it aslong as i know its the sub and nothing else. sub #2 is starting to get saved for already lol

thanks for your help/patience with a newbie.
post #20395 of 70902
Second question for you audyssey folk - when i run the set-up it gives me a crossover of 100-120 hz for my main speakers - is this acceptable, or should i decrease that to 80hz?

speakers are cinema 330's, surrounds are cinema 90's. should i set the surrounds to 80hz also? if so, what does that benefit me from doing so? would it potentially harm anything?

Thanks.
post #20396 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by QN52 View Post

Second question for you audyssey folk - when i run the set-up it gives me a crossover of 100-120 hz for my main speakers - is this acceptable, or should i decrease that to 80hz?

Q, It is not recommended to lower the xover from what is detected as the Audyssey filters are not applied below that. It's not "harm" as in blow up though. Just leave them all where they were set. I presume your confusion is due to the setup guide recommendation that those with very capable speakers often get xovers set to 40 or 60 and it is good to raise those to 80. Enjoy.
post #20397 of 70902
Ah yes, misread that -thanks.

All these numbesr confuse the f out of me - and i'm a chartered accountant believe it or not haha.
post #20398 of 70902
I have also posted the following on the Denon 4810 thread:

Not to start a battle, but there are some interesting discussions about multiple subs on the Audyssey thread starting at #20308 and following.

I was debating which to purchase: Onkyo tx1007 or Denon 4810. I liked the idea of Onkyo’s ‘true’ dual sub but felt Denon’s full DSX implementation with provision for the 10th and 11th channels to be more important. With trepidation, I purchased the Denon.

I’m not that technically savvy, but over on the Audyssey forum, I’m reading things that may indicate my fears of not having the Onkyo’s dual subs be so valuable; at least in the manner in which Onkyo has implemented their take on the matter.

This Audyssey discussion raises some enlightening ideas:
It seems the Onkyo does indeed perform individual Audyssey control of the delays and trims but pings each sub separately. Audyssey’s Chris in post #20337 says “…All of our research on the subject shows that if you first time– and level–align the subs individually and then ping them as one to create a combined room correction filter will give you significantly better results.”

It appears to me, tocaje, that Onkyo is not doing this; that is, they are pinging separately. I apologize if I’m wrong, but at least someone out there can correct me and start a discussion about this.

Pepar puts in #20338 “What if research showed that equalizing two subs as one produced smoother response across the seating area because the interactions of the subs with each other were added to the correction calculations?”
tocaje: this is my hope since the Denon doesn’t offer this type of setup.

So, to level and align each sub individually and ping each sub individually; to level and align each sub individually and ping each sub simultaneously; to level and align all the subs at once and ping all at once….oh, it boggles the mind.

Anyone who can study this and add to my confused mind, please, please, do so. I am not trying to misconscrue or mislead anyone by my selection of the above quotes.

Thanks to all who’ve helped.
post #20399 of 70902
I trust Audyssey and their research. If I had a pre/pro with true dual sub outputs and I also had an AS-EQ1/Subwoofer Equalizer (which I do), I would use ONE sub output and correct my subs as one.

Jeff
post #20400 of 70902
Quote:
Originally Posted by tocaje View Post

So, to level and align each sub individually and ping each sub individually; to level and align each sub individually and ping each sub simultaneously; to level and align all the subs at once and ping all at once.oh, it boggles the mind.


Best = set delays and levels on each sub and then ping them together with the level and delay adjustments being applied.

No AVR today allows this. It can only be done with an external subwoofer processor. However, if your subs are at the same distance from the listening position and you manually set the levels on their amps to be the same then you have achieved the same thing! Just feed them one signal (y-cord) out of your AVR and run MultEQ.
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