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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 690

post #20671 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

I was confused about a "flat" (non-custom) curve with the Pro kit.
Pepars post clarified that there is only the standard curve that you can select from the various high frequency roll offs.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Actually Audyssey Pro offers three user-selectable Reference curves that can be customized by the curve editor.

They are:

High Frequency Roll-off 1 curve introduces a slight roll-off at high frequencies that accounts for the balance between direct and reflected sound for small to medium size rooms (room volume less than 2500 cu. ft.)

High Frequency Roll-off 2 curve introduces a slightly greater roll-off at high frequencies that restores the balance between direct and reflected sound for medium to large size rooms (room volume between 2500 and 5000 cu. ft.)

SMPTE 202M curve is an international standard for the high frequency roll-off applied in a typical 500-seat movie theater. It is appropriate for professional mixing spaces and dubbing stages that must be calibrated for film sound postproduction. It can also be used in extremely large playback spaces (room volume greater than 5000 cu. ft.)

When you select and edit any of these selectable curves, all curves, including the flat curve, is also automatically adjusted.

Refer to Chris' remarks quoted below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi, unfortunately it's not possible to save two curves with different tweaks for each one. The tweaks in MultEQ Pro are applied to all curves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Any mods you make will be applied to the Reference and Flat curves.

Here's one of Jeff's adjustments:



The red curves is the customized reference curve. The blue curve with the handle boxes is the curve used to edit the selected reference curve. The blue curve also is a good representation of the new adjusted "Flat" curve. For Onkyo devices the blue curve would automatically be applied to THX listening modes, with the exception of Neural THX 5.1/7.1.

Larry
post #20672 of 70884
Now that Audyssey has licensed a full filter resolution (like their own Sub EQ) product to SVS in the Sub space, Are they working with any AVP/AVR companies to release a product with the same filter resolution as their own Sound Equalizer?
post #20673 of 70884
Hi,
My first post here. Pioneer's MCCAC has a standing wave correction feature as part of its setup procedure. Can this be duplicated using Audyssey as offered in Denon receivers such as the 1610 or 1910?

Thanks in advance.
post #20674 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasalle View Post

Now that Audyssey has licensed a full filter resolution (like their own Sub EQ) product to SVS in the Sub space, Are they working with any AVP/AVR companies to release a product with the same filter resolution as their own Sound Equalizer?

Licensing has little to do with it as, I am certain, Audyssey is in the business of licensing. However, the AVP/AVR manufacturers have to allocate enough DSP capabilities to this function in order to permit higher filter resolution, such as in the SEQ. Typically, they are very stingy with these resources as they use them for many functions already.
post #20675 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by mediacop View Post

Hi,
My first post here. Pioneer's MCCAC has a standing wave correction feature as part of its setup procedure. Can this be duplicated using Audyssey as offered in Denon receivers such as the 1610 or 1910?

Thanks in advance.

Built in.
post #20676 of 70884
I'd like to reiterate and emphasize that these curves are to be selected by the technician based on the size of the theater space.

The more I listen to movies on my system with the only slightly tweaked curve (that Larry has linked), the more I want to load the "stock" High Frequency Roll-off 1 curve and customize a second curve for music. When there is a lot of action and high frequency content, it just sounds a wee bit too bright on the top.

Hmmm, maybe I should conduct my own listening tests and see what is preferred?

Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Mike,

Actually Audyssey Pro offers three user-selectable Reference curves that can be customized by the curve editor.

They are:

High Frequency Roll-off 1 curve introduces a slight roll-off at high frequencies that accounts for the balance between direct and reflected sound for small to medium size rooms (room volume less than 2500 cu. ft.)

High Frequency Roll-off 2 curve introduces a slightly greater roll-off at high frequencies that restores the balance between direct and reflected sound for medium to large size rooms (room volume between 2500 and 5000 cu. ft.)

SMPTE 202M curve is an international standard for the high frequency roll-off applied in a typical 500-seat movie theater. It is appropriate for professional mixing spaces and dubbing stages that must be calibrated for film sound postproduction. It can also be used in extremely large playback spaces (room volume greater than 5000 cu. ft.)

When you select and edit any of these selectable curves, all curves, including the flat curve, is also automatically adjusted. Refer to Chris' remarks quoted below.



Here's one of Jeff's adjustments:


The red curves is the customized reference curve. The blue curve with the handle boxes is the new adjusted "Flat" curve. For Onkyo devices the blue curve would automatically be applied to THX listening modes, with the exception of Neural THX 5.1/7.1.

Larry[/quote]
post #20677 of 70884
Thanks Kal
post #20678 of 70884
I am in the process of building a dedicated home theater room in my basement and was wondering about the placement of the wide speakers given that my first row of seating is at 12.2' and second row is at 17'. Room width is only 13'. Given the recommended layout I would need to mount the wides on my side walls in front of the main (L,C,R and height) speakers. Is that a viable option or will the wides not be a good idea for my configuration? Thanks.
post #20679 of 70884
I'm having some issues with my Audyssey mic (that came with the Onkyo 876). I've run Audyssey many times over the last few months (usually when I tweak or change something) and it's run flawlessly.

Today I ran it again, did the first pass and 2nd pass fine (going through all 5.1 positions in each pass). When it came to the 3rd pass, it gave me a "speaker detect error" after testing the FL speaker. Retried and same error.

So I unplugged the mic, then plugged it back in and reran Audyssey. Did first pass fine, but in the 2nd pass it gave me a "speaker detect error" after testing the FL speaker. Retried and same error. After this, I unplugged and replugged the mic and in the first pass the "speaker detect error" came in. Retries from then was a no go and I just keep getting the "speaker detect error".

So I then took the Audyssey mic from the AS-EQ1 (which looks identical to the Audyssey mic from the Onkyo 876) and tried that. It worked fine and I did a quick 3 position run and saved the settings. Just as an experiment, I tried again with my original Audyssey mic and got the "speaker detect error" - so obviously something is wrong with my original Audyssey mic from the Onkyo 876.

Questions:

1. Anybody else had their AVR's Audyssey mic die on them?
2. Is the AS-EQ1 Audyssey mic identical to the Onkyo 876 Audyssey mic? I noticed the Audyssey settings are different with the AS-EQ1 Audyssey mic, e.g. level trims are 2.5 dB lower. Speaker config is also different, now the LCR and surrounds are 'full band' previously it was 60 Hz.
post #20680 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Mike,

Yes, it's on our list. It wouldn't be a FW update. Just software.

Great.
Thanks for the feedback.
I think that will facilitate communication on the forum regarding the graphs.

Mike
post #20681 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Mike,

Actually Audyssey Pro offers three user-selectable Reference curves that can be customized by the curve editor.

They are:

High Frequency Roll-off 1 curve introduces a slight roll-off at high frequencies that accounts for the balance between direct and reflected sound for small to medium size rooms (room volume less than 2500 cu. ft.)

High Frequency Roll-off 2 curve introduces a slightly greater roll-off at high frequencies that restores the balance between direct and reflected sound for medium to large size rooms (room volume between 2500 and 5000 cu. ft.)

SMPTE 202M curve is an international standard for the high frequency roll-off applied in a typical 500-seat movie theater. It is appropriate for professional mixing spaces and dubbing stages that must be calibrated for film sound postproduction. It can also be used in extremely large playback spaces (room volume greater than 5000 cu. ft.)

When you select and edit any of these selectable curves, all curves, including the flat curve, is also automatically adjusted. Refer to Chris' remarks quoted below.



Here's one of Jeff's adjustments:


The red curves is the customized reference curve. The blue curve with the handle boxes is the new adjusted "Flat" curve. For Onkyo devices the blue curve would automatically be applied to THX listening modes, with the exception of Neural THX 5.1/7.1.

Larry[/quote]
Thanks.

I do have the Pro kit and have selected roll off #1.

I guess I haven't played with the Pro kit enough.
I thought that there was only one curve selected and that the AVR "reference" vs. "flat" curves were no longer relevant, but I guess not.
Maybe I'll play around with it this weekend.

Mike
post #20682 of 70884
Mike, So I understand correctly: the red curve is the 'Audyssey reference' given by MultEQ XT in an Onkyo AVR, and the blue one 'Audyssey flat' that you get when using a THX mode?
post #20683 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Mike, So I understand correctly: the red curve is the 'Audyssey reference' given by MultEQ XT in an Onkyo AVR, and the blue one 'Audyssey flat' that you get when using a THX mode?

I just quoted Larry, but I believe that is what he's saying.

Mike
post #20684 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Mike, So I understand correctly: the red curve is the 'Audyssey reference' given by MultEQ XT in an Onkyo AVR, and the blue one 'Audyssey flat' that you get when using a THX mode?

The blue curve is not a target curve. It represents the adjustments that will be applied to the red target curve. The curve that will be applied to the filters is always the red curve. In the example above, a boost has been applied to the standard Audyssey HF rolloff 1 curve to bring it closer to flat.
post #20685 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by donlino View Post

I am in the process of building a dedicated home theater room in my basement and was wondering about the placement of the wide speakers given that my first row of seating is at 12.2' and second row is at 17'. Room width is only 13'. Given the recommended layout I would need to mount the wides on my side walls in front of the main (L,C,R and height) speakers. Is that a viable option or will the wides not be a good idea for my configuration? Thanks.

I am at that same point and am struggling with the angles. In a small room, there is no way to make Wides work for both of my two rows.
post #20686 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The blue curve is not a target curve. It represents the adjustments that will be applied to the red target curve. The curve that will be applied to the filters is always the red curve. In the example above, a boost has been applied to the standard Audyssey HF rolloff 1 curve to bring it closer to flat.

So, one is not "editing the target curve" but, rather, creating another curve of adjustments to be superimposed on the target curve? That would mean that, if I create "edit points" and drag them to make a completely flat blue curve, the curve applied to the EQ will be unchanged from the original red curve!!

That is not what I had inferred from the software/documentation and, if so, is clumsy since what you see is not what you get. Can you clarify?
post #20687 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

So, one is not "editing the target curve" but, rather, creating another curve of adjustments to be superimposed on the target curve? That would mean that, if I create "edit points" and drag them to make a completely flat blue curve, the curve applied to the EQ will be unchanged from the original red curve!!

That is not what I had inferred from the software/documentation and, if so, is clumsy since what you see is not what you get. Can you clarify?

The handles apply offsets to the target curve. Perhaps for visual purposes, they connect the handles with the blue line. You are editing the target curve, you are just not doing ot by dragging the target curve itself around. But the target curve is pulled up and down on the screen and therefore does represent "what you get."

Jeff
post #20688 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

The handles apply offsets to the target curve. Perhaps for visual purposes, they connect the handles with the blue line. You are editing the target curve, you are just not doing ot by dragging the target curve itself around.

The target curve is pulled up and down on the screen and therefore does represent "what you get."

This is the crux of the issue. If, at some point, the red curve is -3dB and I create/drag a handle to 0dB, I have accomplished nothing except, perhaps, subtracting subtly from the shoulder regions flanking my handle. Counterintuitive and the reason I asked Chris for clarification.
post #20689 of 70884
FWIW, I applied handle A first to lift the upper end, but found I needed to apply handle B to undo the rise above 0dB that resulted from handle A.

[/quote]
post #20690 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by donlino View Post

I am in the process of building a dedicated home theater room in my basement and was wondering about the placement of the wide speakers given that my first row of seating is at 12.2' and second row is at 17'. Room width is only 13'. Given the recommended layout I would need to mount the wides on my side walls in front of the main (L,C,R and height) speakers. Is that a viable option or will the wides not be a good idea for my configuration? Thanks.

it's perfectly fine to mount the WIDE speakers on the side walls, the important thing is to get the angular measure of the speakers within the target range (+/- 60 degrees) just like any of your other speakers.

the receiver auto setup will set the distances/delays and channel levels to compensate just as with any other channel.
post #20691 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

So, one is not "editing the target curve" but, rather, creating another curve of adjustments to be superimposed on the target curve? That would mean that, if I create "edit points" and drag them to make a completely flat blue curve, the curve applied to the EQ will be unchanged from the original red curve!!

That is not what I had inferred from the software/documentation and, if so, is clumsy since what you see is not what you get. Can you clarify?

One is most certainly editing the target curve. What you see (red) is what you get. You can see it changing as you drag the modifiers (blue points) around.
post #20692 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

This is the crux of the issue. If, at some point, the red curve is -3dB and I create/drag a handle to 0dB, I have accomplished nothing except, perhaps, subtracting subtly from the shoulder regions flanking my handle. Counterintuitive and the reason I asked Chris for clarification.

That's right. Blue points at 0 dB will do nothing (by definition). They are modifiers. So, if you want to modify by +3 dB then you need to move the blue point to +3 dB. Not sure about counterintuitive. Most modifier-based design systems that I know use this approach. I think it's better than starting with a blank page and letting the user draw their own curve.
post #20693 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post



High Frequency Roll-off 1 curve introduces a slight roll-off at high frequencies that accounts for the balance between direct and reflected sound for small to medium size rooms (room volume less than 2500 cu. ft.)

High Frequency Roll-off 2 curve introduces a slightly greater roll-off at high frequencies that restores the balance between direct and reflected sound for medium to large size rooms (room volume between 2500 and 5000 cu. ft.)

SMPTE 202M curve is an international standard for the high frequency roll-off applied in a typical 500-seat movie theater. It is appropriate for professional mixing spaces and dubbing stages that must be calibrated for film sound postproduction. It can also be used in extremely large playback spaces (room volume greater than 5000 cu. ft.)

Is the first choice here, HF Roll-off 1, the 'Audyssey reference' that is produced by MultEQ XT in Onkyo and Denon AVR's?
post #20694 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The blue curve is not a target curve. It represents the adjustments that will be applied to the red target curve. The curve that will be applied to the filters is always the red curve. In the example above, a boost has been applied to the standard Audyssey HF rolloff 1 curve to bring it closer to flat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

So, one is not "editing the target curve" but, rather, creating another curve of adjustments to be superimposed on the target curve? That would mean that, if I create "edit points" and drag them to make a completely flat blue curve, the curve applied to the EQ will be unchanged from the original red curve!!

That is not what I had inferred from the software/documentation and, if so, is clumsy since what you see is not what you get. Can you clarify?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

One is most certainly editing the target curve. What you see (red) is what you get. You can see it changing as you drag the modifiers (blue points) around.


Hi Chris,

I stand corrected that the blue curves is not the Flat target curve, but can you clarify what is happening to the Flat target curve after one of the selectable target curve is edited?

I interpretted your following remarks to mean that all curves, including the Flat target curve, are also altered. Is this incorrect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi, unfortunately it's not possible to save two curves with different tweaks for each one. The tweaks in MultEQ Pro are applied to all curves.

Thanks.

Larry
post #20695 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Is the first choice here, HF Roll-off 1, the 'Audyssey reference' that is produced by MultEQ XT in Onkyo and Denon AVR's?

Yes
post #20696 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

I stand corrected that the blue curves is not the Flat target curve, but can you clarify what is happening to the Flat target curve after one of the selectable target curve is edited?

I interpretted your following remarks to mean that all curves, including the Flat target curve, are also altered. Is this incorrect?

Hi Larry,

Any modifications you make with the blue adjustment points will be applied to all red curves.
post #20697 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Mike,

Yes, it's on our list. It wouldn't be a FW update. Just software.

While you're "in there", can you have the subwoofer graph extend to 10Hz like the Sub Equalizer results screen does?
post #20698 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

While you're "in there", can you have the subwoofer graph extend to 10Hz like the Sub Equalizer results screen does?

+1

I have been unclear what the X axis endpoint is/was, but I think it is 20Hz.
10 Hz would be better.

Mike
post #20699 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I'd love to read some posts from anyone that gave up the "rears" for the Wides!

I already gave up rears due to lack of discrete content and underwhelming audibility. I plan to try wides when the Onkyo 5507 goes on clearance sale (in about a year). Meanwhile, I have very satisfying phantom imaging at 60 degrees by setting Panorama ON in Dolby PLII Music mode.
post #20700 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

That's right. Blue points at 0 dB will do nothing (by definition). They are modifiers. So, if you want to modify by +3 dB then you need to move the blue point to +3 dB. Not sure about counterintuitive. Most modifier-based design systems that I know use this approach. I think it's better than starting with a blank page and letting the user draw their own curve.

I must be getting dumb in my old age. So, let me spell this out.

We are not starting with a blank page but with one of the default/standard curves. Let's say that this curve is flat up to 5KHz as in Pepar's example and rolls off to be -5dB at 20KHz. If unmodified and the world is perfect, implementation of this will result in a system response that mimics it exactly.

If I make a handle (blue point) at 20KHz and move it to +3dB, I get a new curve which is flat to 5KHz and up at +3dB at 20KHz. Right?

So, the effective target curve and the resulting system response is what at 20KHz?

Is it, as I had always thought, +3dB at 20KHz since that is how I have modified the target curve?

Or is it, counterintuitively, -2dB at 20KHz because the blue curve is applied to the red curve and the result is the combination of their effects?

These are very different outcomes and, to me, the former is more useful and more predictable (I see what I get). I apologize for being so pedantic but the messages traded so far have been less than completely transparent to me.
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