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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 694

post #20791 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Sorry. I was the one recommending THX Music. I missread your post and my answer was not very clear.

I assumed that you were playing back 2-channel stereo through a 5.1/7.1 system. If that were the case, then my answer should have been "DPL II (X) THX Music." I use DPL IIX THX Music in my 7.1 system with 2-channel Redbook CD.

You are correct that the THX Select2/Ultra 2 Music mode is ONLY for converting 5.1 channel (multichannel SACD or DVD-A) to 7.1.

If you are playing back 2-channel music STRICTLY through 2-channel stereo, then I know of no way to get a flat Audyssey curve on an Onkyo/Integra AVR. You would have to use the treble control to boost the highs in this case.

Hi BlueSky,
I tried DPL IIX "THX" Music on my Onkyo 906, but unfortunately for me, this mode does not allow for tweaking my center channel. I've been using DPL IIx "Music", (non-THX) as there is a menu option on the 906 AVR to tweak some settings under AUDIO ADJUST/PL IIx/Neo:6, I can choose "Center Width = 7, which turns OFF my center speaker. Reason being, in my home setup, my center speaker is NOT in the center of my room, nor is as good as any of my other speakers. It's a less then ideal work around for now, wish there was a similar option for THX "music", sounded good other then the audio coming out of my center speaker.
post #20792 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post

Hi BlueSky,
I tried DPL IIX "THX" Music on my Onkyo 906, but unfortunately for me, this mode does not allow for tweaking my center channel. I've been using DPL IIx "Music", (non-THX) as there is a menu option on the 906 AVR to tweak some settings under AUDIO ADJUST/PL IIx/Neo:6, I can choose "Center Width = 7, which turns OFF my center speaker. Reason being, in my home setup, my center speaker is NOT in the center of my room, nor is as good as any of my other speakers. It's a less then ideal work around for now, wish there was a similar option for THX "music", sounded good other then the audio coming out of my center speaker.

Unless there is something radically different in the menu structure of a 906 vs a 706 (which I doubt), the Audio Adjust functions ARE available when using DPL IIX THX Music. I use them in my setup. I have Center Width set to "4" and Dimension set to "+1." Panorama is set to "On."

Now, DPL IIX THX Cinema does not allow you to change the Audio Adjust functions, so perhaps you have the two confused.
post #20793 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

I may stop tweaking for a little while and actually watch some movies and listen to music!

What a strange waste of time!

:-P
post #20794 of 70896
With regards to the subwoofer. What should i be doing after the set up?

Bit confused as the Audyssey set up guide says disable low pass filter before, then raise it to 120hz after. So do i enable low pass filter and set to 120hz?

Thanks
post #20795 of 70896
There is a knob on your sub that sets the filter for what frequencies it will play and there is an LPF filter in your AVR. The two are unrelated. You should either disable/defeat the knob on the sub or turn it *up* to the maximum frequency and you should either not touch or set the LPF in the AVR to 120Hz.
post #20796 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Good pickup.
Thanks.

I guess it was more noticeable becuase the sub line was so flat and looked near "perfect" so I wondered why it wasn't dead on reference.
Of course, if they are all X dB below reference, than relatively everything is okay.
I guess I could now ask why that convention was chosen.

I may stop tweaking for a little while and actually watch some movies and listen to music!

Mike

Your sub trim is -10, which indicates to me it might be too 'hot' (turn down its volume), and that's why it shows the avg level for 'after' as being lower.

If your sub trim is in the -3/+3 dB range, it pretty much lands on the reference line.
post #20797 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Your sub trim is -10, which indicates to me it might be too 'hot' (turn down its volume), and that's why it shows the avg level for 'after' as being lower.

If your sub trim is in the -3/+3 dB range, it pretty much lands on the reference line.

I don't think this is true. Unless the trim is at the max range, there is no significance to it.
post #20798 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Your sub trim is -10, which indicates to me it might be too 'hot' (turn down its volume), and that's why it shows the avg level for 'after' as being lower.

If your sub trim is in the -3/+3 dB range, it pretty much lands on the reference line.

Hi Jonathan,

I assume you folks are saying that the bold horizontal line on the Audyssey Pro results graphs is at 75 dB.

My question to you and Chris is if the subwoofer channel hasn't reached it's maximum trim settings, why would a trim of +/- 3 dB yield an SPL at reference while a larger trim adjustment yields a below reference result? If Audyssey knows enough to generate a graph showing the level is below reference, why wouldn't it continue to normalize the SPL and continue to increase the trim level to the maximum, if needed, to yield a result closer to reference? Why would it ever yield a result below reference if it hadn't exhausted the limit of trim settings?

I believe that after applying the equalization filters the normalization process averages the SPL levels between 500 - 2000 Hz on the satellite channels and between 40 and 80 Hz on the subwoofer channel, and raises or lowers the trims to achieve reference. Perhaps if there was enough variation between the corrected levels inside those ranges that would account for a slight departure from reference. However, these Audyssey graphs are generally so flat that it seems to preclude that explanation.

Larry
post #20799 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrew View Post

Chris,

Can you clarify this please? I am in the process of buying additional speakers and will more than likely buy the Denon 4810, unless a different processor comes out that will drive an 11.2 set up. .......


Has anyone heard if Onkyo will be implementing the capability of running all 11 channels? I really don't want to sacrifice my back surrounds.
post #20800 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

Has anyone heard if Onkyo will be implementing the capability of running all 11 channels? I really don't want to sacrifice my back surrounds.

Hi,

Neither would I.

However, Onkyo/Integra has just released their new models and as you know they are limited to 9.2. Do not expect them to officially state what they intend to do in the future when they are trying to sell their current devices.

Larry
post #20801 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

Has anyone heard if Onkyo will be implementing the capability of running all 11 channels? I really don't want to sacrifice my back surrounds.

I have no doubt that future models will allow simultaneous use of all DSX channels. It's difficult to imagine an AVR with ELEVEN channels of amplification, but I suppose that will happen as well.

Jeff
post #20802 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Chris, another DSX Wide question - If the recommendation is for L & R to be at +/-45°, and the Wides at +/-60°, would mains at +/- 35° and Wides at +/-50° work, i.e. is the angular displacement of 15° from L & R the important part?

Jeff

I think the rec is for L/R to be at +/- 30 deg, and the Wides at +/- 60.
post #20803 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Chris, another DSX Wide question - If the recommendation is for L & R to be at +/-45°, and the Wides at +/-60°, would mains at +/- 35° and Wides at +/-50° work, i.e. is the angular displacement of 15° from L & R the important part?

Jeff

Jeff,

Better check the DSX drawing again. The L&Rs are at +/- 30 degrees with heights at +/- 45 degrees and wides at +/- 60 degrees.
post #20804 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Jeff,

Better check the DSX drawing again. The L&Rs are at +/- 30 degrees with heights at +/- 45 degrees and wides at +/- 60 degrees.

post #20805 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo View Post

Your sub trim is -10, which indicates to me it might be too 'hot' (turn down its volume), and that's why it shows the avg level for 'after' as being lower.

If your sub trim is in the -3/+3 dB range, it pretty much lands on the reference line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I don't think this is true. Unless the trim is at the max range, there is no significance to it.

That's what I thought, but I did adjust the sub gain down on the last measure to get it closer to "0" (or +/- 3 dB).

Any reason to think I should re-do with even lower sub gain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Jonathan,

I assume you folks are saying that the bold horizontal line on the Audyssey Pro results graphs is at 75 dB.

My question to you and Chris is if the subwoofer channel hasn't reached it's maximum trim settings, why would a trim of +/- 3 dB yield an SPL at reference while a larger trim adjustment yields a below reference result? If Audyssey knows enough to generate a graph showing the level is below reference, why wouldn't it continue to normalize the SPL and continue to increase the trim level to the maximum, if needed, to yield a result closer to reference? Why would it ever yield a result below reference if it hadn't exhausted the limit of trim settings?

I believe that after applying the equalization filters the normalization process averages the SPL levels between 500 - 2000 Hz on the satellite channels and between 40 and 80 Hz on the subwoofer channel, and raises or lowers the trims to achieve reference. Perhaps if there was enough variation between the corrected levels inside those ranges that would account for a slight departure from reference. However, these Audyssey graphs are generally so flat that it seems to preclude that explanation.

Larry

Larry -
Thanks for better articulating what I was thinking/asking?

Mike
post #20806 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

That's what I thought, but I did adjust the sub gain down on the last measure to get it closer to "0" (or +/- 3 dB).

Any reason to think I should re-do with even lower sub gain?

Mike, within the trim range there is no difference in performance. I know that there are some who advocate getting the trim "in the middle" of the range - or even better .. a PLUS number, but that strikes me as people having "issues."

Jeff
post #20807 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I have no doubt that future models will allow simultaneous use of all DSX channels. It's difficult to imagine an AVR with ELEVEN channels of amplification, but I suppose that will happen as well.

Jeff

Considering that most viewing enviornments couldn't accommodate 11 speakers plus sub, they could keep costs down by have the common 7 amp or possibly 9 amps, and let the few of us who do have the space and desire to add ext amps for the extra speakers. Of course I'm biased, I already use a cinepro 350w/ch amp for the 5 mains and onkyo 805 for the rear surrounds.
But I've been itchin' for the wryed4sound 500w/ch amps for my mains since I understand that for the boom and bust of the action/scifi/adventure movies I watch the digital amps really come into their own, I don't listen to music or watch muscials so the refined sound of A/B amps are probably wasted on me.
post #20808 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Mike, within the trim range there is no difference in performance. I know that there are some who advocate getting the trim "in the middle" of the range - or even better .. a PLUS number, but that strikes me as people having "issues."

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

It is interesting to note that if you review Mike's various results at his Link you'll notice that the two results in which he had a -12 dB trim was just about dead on the reference line, but the result with a -10 dB trim was measurably lower than reference level.

In theory having a lower SPL could be a performance issue, but I doubt we could perceive these small differences, especially in the bass region.

However, like Mike I am curious to hear Chris' explanation of why the satellite channels seem to consistently be below reference, albeit by a small amount.

Larry
post #20809 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

Has anyone heard if Onkyo will be implementing the capability of running all 11 channels? I really don't want to sacrifice my back surrounds.

I have the Onkyo 3007 and it's not the back channels that you must sacrifice it's a choice between the height or wide channels and as AFAIK none of the X007 series will play both the height and wide channels at the same time. You can hook up and calibrate all 11 channels during setup but for 9.2 playback you must choose between the height and wide.

I don't know if this is a hardware or firmware issue so I can't say if it will change. Also I don't know if they are releasing a full 11 channel receiver this year.

Cheers,
Dean
post #20810 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I have no doubt that future models will allow simultaneous use of all DSX channels. It's difficult to imagine an AVR with ELEVEN channels of amplification, but I suppose that will happen as well.

Jeff

Denon's new 4810 will do 11 channels at once, although you have to supply your own amperage for the last 2 channels. I believe you can use your own amp on any combination of channels that you want.

Regards,
John
post #20811 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by dormie1360 View Post

Denon's new 4810 will do 11 channels at once, although you have to supply your own amperage for the last 2 channels. I believe you can use your own amp on any combination of channels that you want.

Regards,
John

Yes, they all have per channel line outs.
post #20812 of 70896
**Removed** Found the pricing.
post #20813 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by grunt11 View Post

I have the Onkyo 3007 and it's not the back channels that you must sacrifice it's a choice between the height or wide channels and as AFAIK none of the X007 series will play both the height and wide channels at the same time. You can hook up and calibrate all 11 channels during setup but for 9.2 playback you must choose between the height and wide.

Hi Dean,

Yes, you are correct. However, Audyssey has consistently stated that in their opinion the wides, and to a lesser extent the height channels, are more important than the surround back channels. Therefore, some folks with separates are considering reconfiguring their speakers and power amplifiers to reallocate them to the wides. I see this as an economy measure.

Personally, I would rather buy more speakers and power amplifiers rather than reallocating my existing resources. Likewise, I would be reluctant to upgrade my preamplifier now to just gain wide or height channels. I would much rather make that investment in a new 11.2 preamplifier when it is available and have the option of going to 11.2 at my convenience.

Larry
post #20814 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I have no doubt that future models will allow simultaneous use of all DSX channels. It's difficult to imagine an AVR with ELEVEN channels of amplification, but I suppose that will happen as well.

Jeff

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlanzy View Post

Considering that most viewing enviornments couldn't accommodate 11 speakers plus sub, they could keep costs down by have the common 7 amp or possibly 9 amps, and let the few of us who do have the space and desire to add ext amps for the extra speakers. Of course I'm biased, I already use a cinepro 350w/ch amp for the 5 mains and onkyo 805 for the rear surrounds.
But I've been itchin' for the wryed4sound 500w/ch amps for my mains since I understand that for the boom and bust of the action/scifi/adventure movies I watch the digital amps really come into their own, I don't listen to music or watch muscials so the refined sound of A/B amps are probably wasted on me.

Hi,

I agree with Jeff.

When we start talking about 11.2 channels, I think we are definitely dealing with a niche market. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there are more stereo configurations in homes than 5.1 or 7.1 configurations. Therefore, I think the mass market will be very slow in going to 11.2 channel receivers.

The situation with separates is another matter. Here folks buy the 11.2 preamplifier and upgrade at their convenience. These folks are already in a niche market. They are used to adding components. What's an extra couple of amps here and a couple of pair of speakers there to these folks.

As you say the more speakers you add, the harder it is to locate them. I suspect folks with dedicated theaters will face less of a problem obtaining agreement from a spouse than situations where you are trying to shoehorn the speakers into multipurpose rooms. Again the dedicated home theater crowd is a niche market.

I have to admit that I was surprised that the Denon receiver was the first 11.2 implementation of DSX. I would have thought it would have been a preamplifier. Hell...what do I know.

Larry
post #20815 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi,

I agree with Jeff.

When we start talking about 11.2 channels, I think we are definitely dealing with a niche market. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there are more stereo configurations in homes than 5.1 or 7.1 configurations. Therefore, I think the mass market will be very slow in going to 11.2 channel receivers.

The situation with separates is another matter. Here folks buy the 11.2 preamplifier and upgrade at their convenience. These folks are already in a niche market. They are used to adding components. What's an extra couple of amps here and a couple of pair of speakers there to these folks.

As you say the more speakers you add, the harder it is to locate them. I suspect folks with dedicated theaters will face less of a problem obtaining agreement from a spouse than situations where you are trying to shoehorn the speakers into multipurpose rooms. Again the dedicated home theater crowd is a niche market.

I have to admit that I was surprised that the Denon receiver was the first 11.2 implementation of DSX. I would have thought it would have been a preamplifier. Hell...what do I know.

Larry

I have no space for any additional speakers. My next upgrade will be neural implants.
post #20816 of 70896
So is it safe to assume Pioneer will never have this in their Elite lines? I keep reading about the Elite LFE issue, is that the fact that MCACC doesnt EQ the Sub?
post #20817 of 70896
Equipment
Denon 3808CI
Paradigm:
60s -V5
CC690
ADP-590
Sub: Ultra Cube 10 (v2)

Folks- I just added the Ultra Cube to my system. After running Audyssey, all of the distance settings between speakers were perfect...except for the sub, which was 2X the correct distance. I did a search and noted that the problem is likely a delay imposed by the sub. The problem is, there is really nothing to change (gain, phase and cut-off). All are set according to recommendations. The only thing that I could change is through the 'perfect base kit' jack. Is there anything to adjust, or should I just keep the distance setting as is? Help/advice will be appreciated.

Jim
post #20818 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

I have no space for any additional speakers. My next upgrade will be neural implants.

I've already signed up for the local university looking for 'testees' for the Johnny Mnemonic experiment....then I can just get a Y adapter to jack myself into my verizon fios and oppo83 player..shove me in a closet..and my wife can redo the theater room for something other than the batcave
post #20819 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

I have no space for any additional speakers. My next upgrade will be neural implants.

Hi,

Yeah, make sure you get the Audyssey brand neural implants so that while they're in there mucking around with your nervous system they might as well fix your hearing frequency response that has deteriorated over time, and abuse.

The Official Integra DHC-80.1 Pre/Pro

Larry
post #20820 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

I have no space for any additional speakers. My next upgrade will be neural implants.

Hmm. I have no space for neural implants, so I will have to settle for speakers.
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