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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 728

post #21811 of 70896
Quick question:

I ordered a boom mic, so I'm going to rerun Audyssey tonight to see if that makes a difference (previous measurements were less than optimal because of my lack of a boom.) So anyway, I'm going to use the boom to put the mic directly in the listening position, which is undoubtedly going to place the mic within a foot of the headrest on my recliner. I've noticed several of you doing the same thing, but I'm wondering whether or not I should lower the recliner back so I can avoid reflections from the headrest?

I'm asking because I'd rather not have to re-run Audyssey more times that I need to.
post #21812 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

..I'm wondering whether or not I should lower the recliner back so I can avoid reflections from the headrest?
I'm asking because I'd rather not have to re-run Audyssey more times that I need to.


A foot or so is likely far enough. You can recline the seat, but I wouldn't expect any major differences.

Nothing like the sound of MultEQ chirps (now trademarked!) on Christmas eve
post #21813 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

A foot or so is likely far enough. You can recline the seat, but I wouldn't expect any major differences.

Nothing like the sound of MultEQ chirps (now trademarked!) on Christmas eve

It would make a good ring-tone too . Merry Christmas to you Chris! Your participation and help here is so much appreciated. I am sure a lot of folks would echo my thanks!
post #21814 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

It would make a good ring-tone too . Merry Christmas to you Chris! Your participation and help here is so much appreciated. I am sure a lot of folks would echo my thanks!

In fact it is the ringtone on my phone! It is a pleasure to be here and interact with everyone.
post #21815 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

In fact it is the ringtone on my phone! It is a pleasure to be here and interact with everyone.

"Everyone"? Too much EggNog Chris.
post #21816 of 70896
Oh dear, I hope you guys can help me. I have been going crazy debugging a "no audio" Digital Coaxial input on my Onkyo TX-NR807 for about six weeks. I have been swapping different brands of cables, trying toslink vs digicoax and getting frustrated.

The source device is a high end Crestron CEN-TRACK AM/FM/XM tuner. What is really strange about this case is that only the CEN-TRACK device is affected, other digital devices work just fine with the Audyssey Dynamic EQ enabled!

I finally found the bug. When I configure the TX-NR807 Dynamic EQ to be "On" then immediately the Digital Coaxial signal fails from the CEN-TRACK!

SO, the test process goes like this:



Test#1

configure the Onkyo TXNR807 so Dynamic EQ is "off"
LG BD Player > Onkyo TXNR807 digital input #1 PASS
Sony DVD Player > Onkyo TXNR807 digital input #1 PASS
Crestron CEN-TRACK > Onkyo TXNR807 digital input #1 PASS

Test#2
configure the Onkyo TXNR807 so Dynamic EQ is "on"
LG BD Player > Onkyo TXNR807 digital input #1 PASS
Sony DVD Player > Onkyo TXNR807 digital input #1 PASS
Crestron CEN-TRACK > Onkyo TXNR807 digital input #1 FAIL


What is it about the Audyssey Dynamic EQ that is causing this issue with the CEN-Track device??? What should I try to do to fix it? I have done a facotory reset of the Onkyo, and updated its firmware to the latest and greatest via the built in ethernet port.

Help

EDIT: I want to add that it is not related to the Listening mode at all. I am using All Channel Stereo. I have also tried all the other digital inputs on the Onkyo and the behavior is the same on all of them.
post #21817 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

Oh dear, I hope you guys can help me. I have been going crazy debugging a "no audio" Digital Coaxial input on my Onkyo TX-NR807 for about six weeks. I have been swapping different brands of cables, trying toslink vs digicoax and getting frustrated.

This was also just submitted to Ask Audyssey and below is my answer:

"Wow, this is one that I've never heard of! It's impossible for anything from Audyssey to be causing this because our algorithms don't have anything to do with the input format or input selection. They sit inside the processor and work on anything that the AVR maker decides to send to them...

One thing to try is to set the input to PCM format rather than the default Auto. Beyond that I am not sure how we can help other than letting Onkyo know about this. I will contact their engineering team in Japan and ask. But, again, there is nothing in the Audyssey software that even remotely has to do with input selection or input format.

Also, have you tried connecting the Cen-Track to another digital input on the 807 in case there is something wrong with the one you are currently connected to?"


This sounds like a microprocessor bug in your Onkyo. I highly recommend contacting their service department to ask about possible solutions.
post #21818 of 70896
Happy Holidays to everyone.
post #21819 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

Oh dear, I hope you guys can help me. I have been going crazy debugging a "no audio" Digital Coaxial input on my Onkyo TX-NR807 for about six weeks. I have been swapping different brands of cables, trying toslink vs digicoax and getting frustrated.

The source device is a high end Crestron CEN-TRACK AM/FM/XM tuner. What is really strange about this case is that only the CEN-TRACK device is affected, other digital devices work just fine with the Audyssey Dynamic EQ enabled!

I finally found the bug. When I configure the TX-NR807 Dynamic EQ to be "On" then immediately the Digital Coaxial signal fails from the CEN-TRACK!

SO, the test process goes like this:



Test#1

configure the Onkyo TXNR807 so Dynamic EQ is "off"
LG BD Player > Onkyo TXNR807 digital input #1 PASS
Sony DVD Player > Onkyo TXNR807 digital input #1 PASS
Crestron CEN-TRACK > Onkyo TXNR807 digital input #1 PASS

Test#2
configure the Onkyo TXNR807 so Dynamic EQ is "on"
LG BD Player > Onkyo TXNR807 digital input #1 PASS
Sony DVD Player > Onkyo TXNR807 digital input #1 PASS
Crestron CEN-TRACK > Onkyo TXNR807 digital input #1 FAIL


What is it about the Audyssey Dynamic EQ that is causing this issue with the CEN-Track device??? What should I try to do to fix it? I have done a facotory reset of the Onkyo, and updated its firmware to the latest and greatest via the built in ethernet port.

Help

EDIT: I want to add that it is not related to the Listening mode at all. I am using All Channel Stereo. I have also tried all the other digital inputs on the Onkyo and the behavior is the same on all of them.

A quick question. Is it possible to turn Dynamic volume on using the "Audio" button in your remote? My Integra DHC 40.1 allows this. Basically what this does is bypass going to the main setup menu. If there is an "Audio" button, you can circle through "Bass", "Treble" etc and if there is an option for Dynamic Volume, try switching it to "Light" (or equivalent") and then see if it drops instantly. When you use Dynamic Volume, it automatically should turn Dynamic EQ on.
I have a similar issue with Digital Input when I use my HTPC but it is related to HDMI (unlike yours) and priorities for digital inputs. My guess is that when you try to go through the setup menu, it drops out for some reason.
Good luck.
post #21820 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Merry Christmas to you Chris! Your participation and help here is so much appreciated. I am sure a lot of folks would echo my thanks!

Echoing here, for sure! Merry Xmas to you Chris and every Audyssey fan on this board! I've got a lot of friends coming over to audition my system in the next coming months. 2010 January, February, March fully booked!!
post #21821 of 70896
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone. Thanks to all who have helped set up my system.
post #21822 of 70896
Scott Wilkinson has his own Podcast called Home Theater Geeks and his first guest is no other than MCH Yoda Tom Holman who shares some insight on Chris and Audyssey tech

Very interesting listen. Check it out here: http://twit.tv/htg1
post #21823 of 70896
I'm really enjoying my new SR707 and the Audyssey MultEQ that puts this receiver over the top and all the help from Chris, Bluesky and the whole forum family.

Merry Christmas everyone.
post #21824 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

In fact it is the ringtone on my phone! It is a pleasure to be here and interact with everyone.

C'mon, Chris... You gotta' hook us up with the file for that! I'd love to have that chirp as my text message sound!
post #21825 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

C'mon, Chris... You gotta' hook us up with the file for that! I'd love to have that chirp as my text message sound!

Merrry Christmas! All the more merry with the wonderful Audyssey technology!

Thanks Chris and jmcomp for your input. jmcorp I will try your workaround in a bit. I have no doubt that the bug exists in Onkyos implementation of Audyssey. Here is some more information...

I determined the only thing about this PCM signal coming from the CEN-TRACK is that its PCM sample rate is 64khz, whereas all the other (working well) ones I am testing with are 44.1khz. Could that be something that is causing it? I know it must be related in how Onkyo is interacting with Audyssey because the problem only happens when I toggle MultiEq on/off in the setup menu. I can post a video of this later so you do not think I am crazy. Also, it should be noted that toggling on MultiEQ in the setup menu causes the audio to change to "pink noise", not a pure dropout as I reported earlier.


Chris do you have a 64khz input pcm device you could test with?

EDIT: As Chris suggested, I tried to configure the Onkyo so that it will "always" use PCM as the input instead of "auto" and unfortunately the directions published in the manual do not work.
post #21826 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

I determined the only thing about this PCM signal coming from the CEN-TRACK is that its PCM sample rate is 64khz, whereas all the other (working well) ones I am testing with are 44.1khz. Could that be something that is causing it? I know it must be related in how Onkyo is interacting with Audyssey because the problem only happens when I toggle MultiEq on/off in the setup menu. I can post a video of this later so you do not think I am crazy. Also, it should be noted that toggling on MultiEQ in the setup menu causes the audio to change to "pink noise", not a pure dropout as I reported earlier.


Chris do you have a 64khz input pcm device you could test with?

EDIT: As Chris suggested, I tried to configure the Onkyo so that it will "always" use PCM as the input instead of "auto" and unfortunately the directions published in the manual do not work.

64 kHz is an odd one that I never heard of. Usually 44.1, 48, 96, 192. The Onkyo will handle all those fine. It may disable Audyssey at 192 kHz, I am not sure.

As far as setting up for PCM inputs, you need to configure your sources to output PCM. The Onkyo will then accept PCM just fine. Is there a way to configure the Creston to output 44.1 or 48 kHz instead of 64?
post #21827 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

Chris do you have a 64khz input pcm device you could test with?

No... I've never heard of any device that samples at 64 kHz. is there a setting in the CEN-TRACK that you can change?
post #21828 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

No... I've never heard of any device that samples at 64 kHz. is there a setting in the CEN-TRACK that you can change?

There is no settings that will change the sample rate. The Onkyo does handle 64khz fine (I can listen with many listening modes All Ch Stereo, Stereo, Mono, Pure Audio, etc)

I tried the workaround of using the remote to turn on Dynamic Volume directly, but unfortunatley that is not displayed unless I have Audyssey selected as the Equalizer in the setup section....

Now I am pretty sure this is happening because of the way Audyssey is handling 64khz PCM because everything else is working fine.... any ideas?
post #21829 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

There is no settings that will change the sample rate. The Onkyo does handle 64khz fine (I can listen with many listening modes All Ch Stereo, Stereo, Mono, Pure Audio, etc)

I tried the workaround of using the remote to turn on Dynamic Volume directly, but unfortunatley that is not displayed unless I have Audyssey selected as the Equalizer in the setup section....

Now I am pretty sure this is happening because of the way Audyssey is handling 64khz PCM because everything else is working fine.... any ideas?

I looked at the Cen-Tron website at all the Cen-Track and tuner card documentation. There is no mention in any documentation that I can find that discusses the sample rate output by the S/PDIF outputs. How do you know it is outputting at 64 kHz?
post #21830 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasamiller View Post

There is no settings that will change the sample rate. The Onkyo does handle 64khz fine (I can listen with many listening modes All Ch Stereo, Stereo, Mono, Pure Audio, etc)

I tried the workaround of using the remote to turn on Dynamic Volume directly, but unfortunatley that is not displayed unless I have Audyssey selected as the Equalizer in the setup section....

Now I am pretty sure this is happening because of the way Audyssey is handling 64khz PCM because everything else is working fine.... any ideas?

Since the Cen-Track audio output is stereo, one guaranteed workaround is to use analog connections. Don't worry about losing sound quality.

It has been reported that Sirius uses a 32 kHz sample rate. Maybe XM does too. It makes best use of scarce resources (bitrate) and still delivers "FM quality" 15 kHz audio bandwidth.

I suspect these tuners are feeding your Onkyo a 32 kHz S/PDIF signal, which is perfectly legal. Why it reads as 64 kHz, not sure. Maybe the Onkyo upsamples 2x, or maybe it's just misreporting the rate. Since so few formats use 32 kHz, it is likely not getting the same degree of testing as 44.1 and 48 kHz.

In any case, unless the various processing algorithms have been specifically coded to support the given sample rate, they may fail to work. Depends on the algorithm, though. "All Stereo" mode will not care about sample rate, for example.
post #21831 of 70896
Chris,

I read the following on the Audyssey website: "MultEQ then re-combines these representative responses to create a final room representation and then inverts that to create the correction filter for each loudspeaker."

That statement seems to imply that when I run a 5.1 system, Audyssey applies the correction to all speakers assuming that all speakers are running.

So when I listen to 2-channel music using fronts+sub only, Audyssey applies its correction to the fronts+sub as before, despite that fact that now the center+rears are silent, right?

Wouldn't that possibly screw up the 2.1 channel music reproduction?
post #21832 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rad View Post

Wouldn't that possibly screw up the 2.1 channel music reproduction?

Not Chris, but no it will not. Each speaker is handled independently of the others. After calibration you can turn speakers on and off as you please.
post #21833 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Not Chris, but no it will not. Each speaker is handled independently of the others. After calibration you can turn speakers on and off as you please.

That's impressive. It means that a 7.1 receiver will produce 8 different signals, each adjusted not only for volume, but also for time delay, frequency response etc.

That leads me to the following thoughts:

1. Audyssey should do a good job with voice matching among speakers (this has probably been discussed here already).

2. Wouldn't that also allow you to buy cheaper speakers with "less than flat" frequency response? Obviously a good speaker has more advantages besides frequency response, but wouldn't a speaker that's +-6dB within target sound very much like a speaker that's +-2dB within target (assuming all other parameters of the two speakers are equal)?

3. Pushing this more, wouldn't it make sense for companies to sell matched receiver/speaker systems? They could make more cheaply designed speakers with less than ideal frequency response and have the receiver compensate for it. [Well, maybe Bose is already doing that in their crappy HTIB systems.] From an engineering standpoint, speaker designer could forget about "on-axis response" and focus on other things such as extending bass response, minimizing phase errors etc. Will that be the speaker design of the future?
post #21834 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rad View Post

That's impressive. It means that a 7.1 receiver will produce 8 different signals, each adjusted not only for volume, but also for time delay, frequency response etc.

That leads me to the following thoughts:

1. Audyssey should do a good job with voice matching among speakers (this has probably been discussed here already).

2. Wouldn't that also allow you to buy cheaper speakers with "less than flat" frequency response? Obviously a good speaker has more advantages besides frequency response, but wouldn't a speaker that's +-6dB within target sound very much like a speaker that's +-2dB within target (assuming all other parameters of the two speakers are equal)?

3. Pushing this more, wouldn't it make sense for companies to sell matched receiver/speaker systems? They could make more cheaply designed speakers with less than ideal frequency response and have the receiver compensate for it. [Well, maybe Bose is already doing that in their crappy HTIB systems.] From an engineering standpoint, speaker designer could forget about "on-axis response" and focus on other things such as extending bass response, minimizing phase errors etc. Will that be the speaker design of the future?

1. Yes.

2. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

3. Where's the fun in that?
post #21835 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rad View Post

That's impressive. It means that a 7.1 receiver will produce 8 different signals, each adjusted not only for volume, but also for time delay, frequency response etc.

Most every 7.1 receiver on the market does that... I would be most un-impressed if there was one that didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rad View Post


3. Pushing this more, wouldn't it make sense for companies to sell matched receiver/speaker systems? They could make more cheaply designed speakers with less than ideal frequency response and have the receiver compensate for it.

In the end, it's about the room and not the speakers..

People might choose speakers because of their defining characteristics, but it's how they interact with the acoustic space that will have the greatest impact on sound quality.... you neutral AVR/Speaker combination will not be neutral in any given space different than where the manufacturer tuned them.

However, if we take your suggestion into consideration, you can't get something for nothing, and if you want to cheaply make a speaker and use delay, phase shift and equalization to make up for the dollar savings you will pay, not only in engineering costs, but more importantly, in sound quality... at the point you do this, there wouldn't be any cheap resources left (in terms of both cost and horsepower) to do other more critical DSP....
post #21836 of 70896
X-POST FROM INTEGRA 9.8 FORUM:

I'm hoping someone might have a suggestion for my problem.

My 9.8 is running v 1.08 with the latest DSP upgrade. The unit has worked flawlessly for a couple years. I changed the configuration of my theater a bit and decided to run Audyssey again.

Now, I keep getting a "Speaker Detect Error" message, and the calibration will not run. The calibration tones are sounding, but it's as if the mic isn't hearing them (sometimes). I've tried running the setup a couple dozen times. A couple of times I got the ambient noise level is too high message (the dedicated room is silent...), and a couple of other times it "measured" the left and center channels, but then gave me the "Speaker Detect Error" message at the right channel, and shut down the calibration process.

I tried resetting the 9.8 (lost all settings as well my previous Audyssey settings ) and the same error occurs. Every other 9.8 function seems to be working fine; it's just Audyssey... I suppose the mic might be broken, but it worked fine in the past and has been stored carefully in between uses.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
post #21837 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmbond View Post

Now, I keep getting a "Speaker Detect Error" message, and the calibration will not run. The calibration tones are sounding, but it's as if the mic isn't hearing them (sometimes). I've tried running the setup a couple dozen times. A couple of times I got the ambient noise level is too high message (the dedicated room is silent...), and a couple of other times it "measured" the left and center channels, but then gave me the "Speaker Detect Error" message at the right channel, and shut down the calibration process.

It could be a damaged mic (or mic connector, or mic cable). But, it could also be a damaged tweeter in your R channel.
post #21838 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rad View Post

Chris,

I read the following on the Audyssey website: "MultEQ then re-combines these representative responses to create a final room representation and then inverts that to create the correction filter for each loudspeaker."

That statement seems to imply that when I run a 5.1 system, Audyssey applies the correction to all speakers assuming that all speakers are running.

So when I listen to 2-channel music using fronts+sub only, Audyssey applies its correction to the fronts+sub as before, despite that fact that now the center+rears are silent, right?

Wouldn't that possibly screw up the 2.1 channel music reproduction?

Hi David,

As bluesky already mentioned, the MultEQ filters are applied to each speaker and subwoofer independently. So, for example, the L speaker has a room correction filter that is applied to it regardless of whether you are listening to that speaker alone, in a stereo configuration, or in a 5.1 system. MultEQ is trying to solve the problems that arise from the interaction of sound from each speaker with the room. These problems are unique to each speaker (depending on placement) and don't change with the number of speakers in the system.
post #21839 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

It could be a damaged mic (or mic connector, or mic cable). But, it could also be a damaged tweeter in your R channel.

Thanks for the reply Chris.

The speaker components have been checked and are ok.

I'd assume that it's the mic's integrity too, but a few times it has gotten to the FR speaker before I get the "Speaker Detect Error", so it appears that the mic is working to some degree (maybe just intermittently...). Do you happen to know where Audyssey's software is held in the Integra units? I just tried reloading the lastest DSP revisions from Integra thinking that maybe Audyssey was stored there and has somehow become corrupted, but this didn't solve the problem. I'm wondering if re-installing the Main Firmware might help. (That is a pretty big process however )
post #21840 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmbond View Post

I'd assume that it's the mic's integrity too, but a few times it has gotten to the FR speaker before I get the "Speaker Detect Error", so it appears that the mic is working to some degree (maybe just intermittently...). Do you happen to know where Audyssey's software is held in the Integra units? I just tried reloading the lastest DSP revisions from Integra thinking that maybe Audyssey was stored there and has somehow become corrupted, but this didn't solve the problem. I'm wondering if re-installing the Main Firmware might help. (That is a pretty big process however )

There is no way to directly access the Audyssey portion of the firmware through the update process. There are no known issues with the firmware in that unit so I doubt that it's a firmware issue. I would contact Onkyo for a replacement mic.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)