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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 9

post #241 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

Are you sure? Did you push the eq button on your remote several times? I own a Denon AVR 4806 and took for granted the Audyssey program on all AVRs had the same 3 settings (along with "Front").

Yes, the Onkyo implementation of MultEQ XT seems to have to have dumbed down the user interaction a little.
post #242 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuristix View Post

Yes, the Onkyo implementation of MultEQ XT seems to have to have dumbed down the user interaction a little.


Try SETUP -> SPEAKER SETTINGS -> EQUALIZER SETTINGS ->
FLAT (Or AUDYSSEY or MANUAL)

-E
post #243 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by egcarter View Post

Try SETUP -> SPEAKER SETTINGS -> EQUALIZER SETTINGS ->
FLAT (Or AUDYSSEY or MANUAL)

-E

I simply cannot find any way to get to different target curves in the Onkyo 705, neither is there any mention of these in the manual; same for the 805 and the 875. It seems to me that there are three main differences from the Audyssey MultEQ XT as present in the Denon and Marantz models:
1) During setup the adjusted speaker levels and crossovers are displayed, but there is no information about equalization frequencies.
2) The number of positions that can be measured has gone up from 6 to 8.
3) No target curve selection. I suspect only "Flat" is being selected, and letting the user adjust the settings to taste using tone controls; the bass and treble can be re-adjusted up or down by 10dB. Alternatively, Audyssey can be disabled and equalization applied by hand.
post #244 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuristix View Post


3) No target curve selection. I suspect only "Flat" is being selected, and letting the user adjust the settings to taste using tone controls; the bass and treble can be re-adjusted up or down by 10dB. Alternatively, Audyssey can be disabled and equalization applied by hand.

That's not necessarily a bad option since some people don't like the Audyssey curve and all it does really is to roll the top end off slightly.

You may have another option. If you can control any of the parameters for Dolby or DTS, you may have a 'Cinema EQ' option there. That option rolls the top end off slightly also. I don't know how close that plus your Audyssey EQ gets to the Audyssey curve on a Denon but it's an option that's worth trying as well as playing with your tone controls.
post #245 of 70884
Okay now I am confused. I have three presets in the setup of the Onyko 805 to control the EQ settings, Audyssey-Off-Manual. At least that is all I see. If I select Off does that mean all the speaker correction completed by the Audyssey when I set up the speakers will be defeated? Or does it mean that a preset Audyssey curve will not be used?

Thanks, LTK
post #246 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvthekeys View Post

Okay now I am confused. I have three presets in the setup of the Onyko 805 to control the EQ settings, Audyssey-Off-Manual. At least that is all I see. If I select Off does that mean all the speaker correction completed by the Audyssey when I set up the speakers will be defeated? Or does it mean that a preset Audyssey curve will not be used?

Thanks, LTK

When you choose Equalization settings to "Audyssey Off" or "Manual" the Audysey LED indicator in front of the receiver goes off; this would seem to indicate that Audyssey is not being applied in either of these settings. This would allow you to toggle between no equalization, any manually applied equalization, and Audyssey.
post #247 of 70884
On my Denon AVR 4806 when I have EQ set to "off" it keeps the channel gain settings so I assume it also keeps the distance, as well.
post #248 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by plhart View Post

the MultEQ Pro license keys the installer purchases for the Denon AVRs that work with MultEQ Pro: each key is tied to the MAC address of that receiver and allows unlimited Audyssey calibrations of that unit. So if the customer moves homes, changes the room, etc., the installer does not have to repurchase a key. It’s up to the installer to work out a price with the customer on the return visit and recalibration. Feel free to post that as a response on the forum"

can someone PM me the cost of this Pro software calibration install license? (or post if you think appropriate -- I think it would be like a regular manufacturer price that can be discussed, but I'm not sure) I know the installer kit is a one time $325 for multiple uses, but there's a per install fee also.
post #249 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuristix View Post

I simply cannot find any way to get to different target curves in the Onkyo 705, neither is there any mention of these in the manual; same for the 805 and the 875. It seems to me that there are three main differences from the Audyssey MultEQ XT as present in the Denon and Marantz models:
1) During setup the adjusted speaker levels and crossovers are displayed, but there is no information about equalization frequencies.
2) The number of positions that can be measured has gone up from 6 to 8.
3) No target curve selection. I suspect only "Flat" is being selected, and letting the user adjust the settings to taste using tone controls; the bass and treble can be re-adjusted up or down by 10dB. Alternatively, Audyssey can be disabled and equalization applied by hand.

Just wanted to clarify for Onkyo owners: The 705/805 use the Audyssey curve by default and don't give you the option for the other curves like other brands do. However, when you are using one of the THX modes, it changes to FLAT mode so that the THX rolloff and Audyssey rolloff aren't laid on top of each other.

Here's the thing, though: If you want to hear FLAT without the THX rolloff, change to a THX mode then hit RE-EQ to turn the THX rolloff off. This is the only way to do it, which is unfortunate. Also unfortunate is that the RE-EQ comes back on automatically if you turn the receiver off and back on, so the setting isn't persistant. To use FLAT mode every time, you would have to leave it in a THX mode, then turn RE-EQ Off.

I don't mind the Audyssey curve because I'm still hearing high-end detail but not hearing directional reflections as much, but it sucks that Onkyo didn't give users the option to use Flat or Front modes. Perhaps if enough people complain about it, they could add it in a future firmware update.
post #250 of 70884
I got some interesting info from Audyssey in a response to a question I had about NAD claiming their new models had double the filter resolution in the bass:

"We developed an improved method for equalizing the
subwoofer channel and implemented it in our stand-alone Sound
Equalizer box that shipped in June of 2006. So, it has been out
there for more than a year and well before the NAD products.
Furthermore, the method increases the subwoofer resolution by 8x
relative to previous versions and not 2x as the marketing person at
NAD would have you believe. What NAD incorporated is a custom target
curve that comes from their collaborator, Paul Barton, who is one of
the best speaker designers in the world. It is simply a target curve
that has a slightly different shape than the standard Audyssey curve
that Paul felt better represents his desired room sound.

Here are the facts on resolution:

Filter resolution of MultEQ XT built-in to receivers (satellite
channels): x
Filter resolution of MultEQ XT built-in to receivers (subwoofer): 8x

Filter resolution of MultEQ Pro in receivers (satellite channels): x
Filter resolution of MultEQ Pro in receivers (subwoofer): 8x

Filter resolution of MultEQ XT in the Sound Equalizer (satellite
channels): 2x
Filter resolution of MultEQ XT in the Sound Equalizer (subwoofer): 16x
post #251 of 70884
2x, 8x, 16x vs what? How are they differentiating "previous versions" ? I assume the Integra/Onkyo pre/pros got the new version too.
post #252 of 70884
Yeah I think it's in reference to the previous versions. There's nothing really new there.
I think the big question is how much better will the "Pro" software & mic be at setting the available filters than the on board XT software & mic? Will it be worth the extra investment?
post #253 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundlovr View Post

I'm sure I've read this being discussed before. I forget the definitive answer, but it seems to me there was a representative from Audyssey on this forum. Does anyone know if he's still here to help us out? I can't see them not having it active on "ext. in" connections... that'd be a bit of a slap to the high-end SACD/DVD-A crowd.

I have the Denon AVR-4806CI with a Sony SCD-C2000ES connected via External In and I am unable to apply Audyssey. As far as I can tell the only way to use Audyssey in this situation is with the stereo Analog connection. Makes no sense to me either.
post #254 of 70884
Very few receivers or prepros have ADCs for the 7.1 analog inputs so there's no way to convert the analog signal to digital for bass management, EQ, etc. Mostly they are just a straight passthrough with a volume control. There's nothing Audyssey can do about that. Fortunately, HDMI is becoming more common on players and receivers so the analog inputs will become less important and you'll be able to do the full array of digital processing if you choose to.
post #255 of 70884
When running the Audyssey setup on the Onkyo 805 does it matter what volume you have selected when running it? Or should you run it at the volume you normally watch movies on?

I am trying to find out if I watch movies on -20 and run the Audyssey set up at say -35...Does that make any difference?

Any help is appreciated.
Thx,
Claude
post #256 of 70884
Claude,

Noah will probably have more info, but from what I understand, volume is only an issue insofar as ambient noise is concerned. You want the test tones to be well above any noise from your refrigerator, kids upstairs, road traffic, etc. This prevents the noise from having measurable impact on the filter parameters that are calculated. I think in all devices using the Audyssey technology, the software will tell you if noise is interfering with the tests.

In the case of the SoundEQ, you have no control over test signal volume since the pre/pro is upstream of the SoundEQ and has no effect. Also in the SoundEQ case, the software will increase the SPL of the test tones until they are sufficiently above the noise, and tell you to reduce noise if measurable noise is still detected. I'm not sure that the receivers will do this.

The filters focus on room acoustics and the acoustics are the same at all volume levels, so you won't affect the filter parameters by testing at different volume levels so long as the test signal is sufficiently above the noise that the noise has minimal impact on the resulting filters. As for DynamicEQ, that is something that accommodates average human hearing characteristics and is not affected by test volume or room acoustics.

Harrison
post #257 of 70884
Harrison,

Thanks so much for explaining it to me. I asked because I had the receiver for 4 month and only ran the Audyssey just last week. Previously I had the everything dialed in manually (Speaker distance and did the spl with an Sound meter). After I ran the Audyssey last week I noticed that the sound has improved and it seems a lot more dynamic too than it was previously. I was asking because sometimes during movie playback when a woman screams or a child screams it seems brighter. I thought maybe the Audyssey was preset at that volume I ran the test on 35 and it just got brighter the louder I turned it up. Other than the occassional brightness like this (which may be normal) the sound overall is better/cleaner/more detailed and more pronounced.

Edit....when I originally ran it, it was very quiet in my home so I dont think ambient noise was a factor at all for me.

Thx again,
Claude
post #258 of 70884
Quote:


When running the Audyssey setup on the Onkyo 805 does it matter what volume you have selected when running it? Or should you run it at the volume you normally watch movies on?

I haven't tried an 805 but, the way most of them work, the receiver ignores whatever you have set the volume control to and sets its own volume during calibration.
post #259 of 70884
Claude, Catapult .........

Quote:
Originally Posted by catapult View Post

I haven't tried an 805 but, the way most of them work, the receiver ignores whatever you have set the volume control to and sets its own volume during calibration.

I'm not surprised that the receivers behave similarly to the SoundEQ. I expect that the software in the receiver might also push the volume of the test tones up in steps when necessary to get a clear measurement over any noise that may exist. I think that the software may also push the volume up on perceived noise; i.e., some unusual reflection perhaps, because I've had the tones repeated at higher levels even in a quiet room.

As for the brightness, if your room is relatively absorbent of higher frequencies (large room or one with "overstuffed" furniture or other absorbent surfaces), the Audyssey setup may indeed increase the brightness; e.g., increase the SPL at higher frequencies. It will do this to compensate for the lack of reflected highs or the absorbed highs. You may have a choice of frequency response profiles that differ only in the level of the higher frequencies. You should try each one that is available to find one to your liking.

The frequency response across the full spectrum, from 20Hz to 20kHz should not change with volume unless you have a receiver with the DynamicEQ capability or some kind of "loudness" control. DynamicEQ is a modern (and much improved) equivalent to the old "loudness" control that was once popular. While the old loudness control, I think, usually addressed only the low frequencies (below about 200Hz), Audyssey's Dynamic EQ adjusts both the low and high ends when the volume is changed, accounting for the human ear's drop in sensitivity at low and high frequencies as volume is reduced. It works very well.

You may also find that the Audyssey system will seemingly reduce the bass that your system provides. Many rooms have "room gain" that makes bass volume higher than the settings in the pre-pro or receiver would indicate. The Ausdyssey filters pretty much flatten out the bass response, knocking off as much as about 10 db of room gain below 100 Hz (usually below about 50 or 60 Hz). If you are used to that gain or "inherent bass boost," you may miss it, even though it is artificial and the Audyssey filters are giving you the correct bass performance. In my opinion, the best way to recover this extra bass is to let the Audyssey filters do their thing then simply use the bass tone control in the receiver to bring the bass back up to your liking. The tone control should give you a nice sweep upward as frequency declines through the range of the subwoofer. The result will be smoother than the room gain which might have given you a bubble around 40 or 50 Hz.

It's hard to beat the Audyssey measurement of speaker distances. The software can differentiate between a sound wave coming directly from the speaker and one that takes a longer path bouncing off of a wall. It uses only the direct sound wave to calculate speaker distance.

Fun stuff.

Harrison
post #260 of 70884
I just had the Audyssey Sound EQ installed between my Outlaw 950 and my amps. I have an M&K speaker setup, an M&K sub and a Sunfire sub in a relatively large room. As promised, the peaks and valleys in the room's response were ironed out. We applied what I think is the THX curve which rolls off the highs ever so slightly. If I didn't know we applied that filter I wouldn't hear it. I have the right amount of treble for my room. The bass is definitely reduced but it's the bass bloat that's gone. I played a DVD-A of Beethoven's 9th. When the basses quietly have the melody in the fourth movement, it used to be muddy and barely audible. Now it is distinct and present.

I'll take some time getting used to it before I change anything. One thing that concerns me is that the gains on my preamp are higher to compensate for the signal drop induced by the Audyssey. As a result, I think I'm hearing more grainy and brittle hi-mids and highs. I have to sample more material but it's likely coming from poor source material that I never noticed before.

I like the unit but it's no fun for a tweaker. It's "set and forget" or push the bypass button. Hopefully, someday, Audyssey will release user software to let us play with the preset curves in the unit.
post #261 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_Morr View Post

It's "set and forget" or push the bypass button. Hopefully, someday, Audyssey will release user software to let us play with the preset curves in the unit.

If I don't buy one, that's going to be the reason: lack of user control. Audyssey seems to have a 'holier than thou' attitude, and think all users are stupid.
post #262 of 70884
Thanks again for all the feedback guys! Very Much appreciated!!
post #263 of 70884
I also have the sound pro eq and it makes a HUGE difference. Highly recommended & I couldn't go without it now that I have had it for about 2 months now.

I have the installers kit so I have had the chance to re-calibrate it many times and try different things like speaker placement to get the flattest response. By doing so, I have had great results.

I use the Eq for TV, movies, radio.....it all makes a huge improvement to the sound quality. I have always read that room acoustics are very important but I never knew it made this much difference.

I had the denon avr 3806 with audyssey on it but the stand alone unit is a lot better. On my denon I never really liked the audyssey setting and preferred it on front or off at times.
post #264 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei View Post

If I don't buy one, that's going to be the reason: lack of user control. Audyssey seems to have a 'holier than thou' attitude, and think all users are stupid.

It seems that way but Audyssey is a small company and does not have the resources to support end-users directly via telephone or email. Also, if they are to succeed with a product such as the Sound EQ Pro, they need sales well beyond the handful of us tweakers that can afford such a product. They need local HT shop salesmen that will well the product to their non-tech-savvy clients in part because they can make an extra buck on the installation.

But, I wouldn't rule out something like Audyssey increasing the price of the installer's kit to cover the support that would be necssary for users that have not been trained. Maybe one price for professional installers (a discount) and another for end-users that may need support. You might give them a call if you are really interested in having an installer's kit. Maybe you could even become "the" installer for your area if there isn't a local HT shop already selling and supporting the Sound EQ Pro. I'm just thinking out loud here.

HClarkx
post #265 of 70884
"But, I wouldn't rule out something like Audyssey increasing the price of the installer's kit to cover the support that would be necssary for users that have not been trained."

I emailed Audyssey and they said taking the training is a requirement to buy the installer's kit.
post #266 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I emailed Audyssey and they said taking the training is a requirement to buy the installer's kit.

Not a surprise I guess. With a staff of just 20 and no help desk in India ..... But, if they get enough expressions of interest ... maybe someday ..
post #267 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"But, I wouldn't rule out something like Audyssey increasing the price of the installer's kit to cover the support that would be necssary for users that have not been trained."

I emailed Audyssey and they said taking the training is a requirement to buy the installer's kit.

Its very easy to install and imo one doesn't need training to install it. The manual is very well written and the software is easy to follow.

I understand that the training ensures the best PRO installation and hence the best sound! The product's reputation & results are what creates sales and if its not 100% properly calibrated then one will not think so highly of the product....then no recommendations & word of mouth to buy it....etc

I highly recommend the pro sound eq.....worth every penny and worth its weight in gold

When I turn off the eq processing I can't bare listening to my system as there is a significant difference.
post #268 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by wabbit636 View Post

I highly recommend the pro sound eq.....worth every penny and worth its weight in gold

When I turn off the eq processing I can't bare listening to my system as there is a significant difference.

I have the same results. My speakers "tested very well in the lab" according to the Audyssey folks and my room has no terrible problems in the "before" tests, but still there is significant improvement. In particular, I like the clarity in voices coming from the center channel. My 66 year-old ears don't extract voices from background noise (in a crowded room or a movie soundtrack) as well as 10 or 20 years ago. The extra clarity helps with this problem (everyone has this problem sooner or later). I now ask my wife "what did she say?" far less often.

And, I can listen to what otherwise is fairly intense music (to me) for long periods without picking up the remote to move to another CD. I also enjoy listening at higher volume levels now.

Hclarkx
post #269 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by syswei View Post

If I don't buy one, that's going to be the reason: lack of user control. Audyssey seems to have a 'holier than thou' attitude, and think all users are stupid.

I have to agree that the lack of Audyssey control on the Integra DTC-9.8 is disappointing and will influence future product purchase decisions. They would be better off giving the end user more control and letting their product become and remain the standard. It doesn't have to be at the pro install level but meet us half way on saved settings and adjustment options. This would have no impact on the Pro install/calibration market that would still exist. "Tweakers" want control over their sound, not marketing.
post #270 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by rweeb View Post

I have to agree that the lack of Audyssey control on the Integra DTC-9.8 is disappointing and will influence future product purchase decisions. They would be better off giving the end user more control and letting their product become and remain the standard. It doesn't have to be at the pro install level but meet us half way on saved settings and adjustment options. This would have no impact on the Pro install/calibration market that would still exist. "Tweakers" want control over their sound, not marketing.

Well it is what it is. No Audyssey product has "control" it's not a 9.8 specific issue. And really, it's no secret that the Audyssey is designed as a set it & forget it program, so what's all the fuss about? You either like what it does or you don't. On or off, that's a choice.. The 9.8 has a 15 band EQ for each speaker available IIRC, so there are other tweaks available to the user besides the Audyssey.
What did people do before room correction software became mainstream?
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