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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 13

post #361 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

What are you measuring this with? If it's a Radio Shack SPL meter, remember that it is less accurate with lower frequencies and requires a correction value to get a proper reading (hence the reason we have correction charts for doing coarse equalization with that meter). A 6dB rolloff as measured on the meter may well indicate flat response with the correction.

If that's not it, well... I got nothin'.


Yes I'm using a Radio shack SPL and I am using the corrections.

I am comparing to before and after with applying audyessy, so it's definitely doing something just not what I would want with LFE.
post #362 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

I have a denon 987 (same as 2807) and with audyessy Eq it seems to always roll of my LFE right where I wouldn't want it rolled off.

If I run test tones at 16hz and 20hz as well as 25hz, with the EQ engaged, I get as much as a 6db drop at some or all of those frequencies. And they aren't peaks that are getting rolled off either.

I've run it numerous times with the gain on my sub's changed just to see If I could get it to stop cutting the very low LFE and it always does.

Any ideas?

There has been a lot of discussion on the effect Audyssey has on very deep bass (below 25 Hz) which you can read about in the first hundred posts of this thread, and the "My AVR-3806 Audyssey Experience!" thread. The Audyssey system has to make some compromises due to limited computation capability, and it seems that rolling off the really deep bass (as a consequence of trying to keep everything above about 30 Hz flat) may be a consequence of that.

That said, you might check to see if there has been a firmware update for your AVR which might help. Most folks just turned up their sub level a few dB as a compromise.
post #363 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

Yes I'm using a Radio shack SPL and I am using the corrections.

I am comparing to before and after with applying audyessy, so it's definitely doing something just not what I would want with LFE.

When you're setting up the mic to run Audyssey, are you placing it within about 18" from any wall? One of the common issues I've seen is with people placing the mic too close to room boundaries, which can cause Audyssey to cut bass frequencies affected by room-induced gain that might not actually exist where your ears normally are. Additionally, if you're holding a SPL meter while sitting in your listening position, you're holding it further away from where the Audyssey mic should have been placed (and putting your body's acoustics in the equation), meaning it may well read lower than it should (because your ears are closer to the back wall than the SPL meter and you're not reading rear wall reflections/gain with your body in the way). Just a thought. If you're not near the back wall, it doesn't really apply.

This effect of room boundaries on the equalization is part of why Audyssey recommends you do at least 6 mic positions - 3 at the seats and 3 a couple of feet in front of that. That helps it better analyze the effects of boundary gain on your subwoofer's in-room response and provide an equalization better suited for the general area. The first time I ran MultEQ XT, I just did a quick three position run with the mic near ear position (which unfortunately put it in front of the headrest of the seats, causing further acoustic issues with the equalization). The result was anemic bass. After more research, I re-ran all 8available positions with the mic slightly further into the room and at a height just above the headrests of my seating, and with phenomenally better results.

Check my FAQ I linked to earlier for some other placement/setup tips. Maybe your initial mic placement is throwing off the EQ'ing. Garbage in, garbage out, as the case may be.
post #364 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

Yes I'm using a Radio shack SPL and I am using the corrections.

I am comparing to before and after with applying audyessy, so it's definitely doing something just not what I would want with LFE.

That still doesn't necessarily mean that Audyseey is wrong. There has been much discussion regarding what the proper correction values are, and it can vary depending on the vintage of your RS meter. It is possible that your whole baseline based on the "corrected" RS meter values is incorrect.
post #365 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

That still doesn't necessarily mean that Audyseey is wrong. There has been much discussion regarding what the proper correction values are, and it can vary depending on the vintage of your RS meter. It is possible that your whole baseline based on the "corrected" RS meter values is incorrect.

Well, the analog RatShack SPL meters have a fairly consistent response curve, even between the newer and older ones. I don't know that he would see a 6dB inconsistency from that alone. I still think it's an issue with how he's running Audyssey to begin with.
post #366 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

AFAIK, it is not possible with any Audyssey implementation.

I have Aerial 8B for fronts and Aerial 5B for the center and Aerial SW3 for surrounds.I always set my fronts and center to large and surrounds to small and crossovers to 80Hrz on my Lexicon preamp.I sold the Lexicon and purchased a Intrgra DTC-9.8 processor with the Audyssey program.What do you think should be my Speaker and Crossover seting on the 9.8 processor .Also at what crosser should i set my Sunfire Subwoffer? I want to use the crossover in the 9.8 for my subs and what do i set the crossover on my sub? do i set it all the way up or off when using the crossover in the 9.8 processor. I do not know what to do and need sum info.
post #367 of 70911
1. I would start with the same crossover settings you were using before and adjust only if you see a need.
2. When using the crossover in a pre/pro, always set the subs own crossover to OFF (or all the way up if that's not possible).
post #368 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

1. I would start with the same crossover settings you were using before and adjust only if you see a need.
2. When using the crossover in a pre/pro, always set the subs own crossover to OFF (or all the way up if that's not possible).

What to do if Audyssey sets speakers to small ? Do i reset the settings in speaker ajustment? do i set subs at 80 or 120 HTZ in settings ? Thanks for your help.
post #369 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by voigtskins View Post

What to do if Audyssey sets speakers to small ?

80Hz means small.

Quote:


Do i reset the settings in speaker ajustment?

Of course.

Quote:


do i set subs at 80 or 120 HTZ in settings ?

??? In the 9.8, you want the upper cutoff for the sub at 120 unless you can localize them too easily. If so, try80Hz. On the subs, themselves, you want that cutoff as high as possible or bypassed.
post #370 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

That still doesn't necessarily mean that Audyseey is wrong. There has been much discussion regarding what the proper correction values are, and it can vary depending on the vintage of your RS meter. It is possible that your whole baseline based on the "corrected" RS meter values is incorrect.


I get what you are saying but if I use my SPL meter with audyessy on and off and in the same position and get different readings on LFE then it still has to have an effect. Correction values regardless.

Lets just say I don't correct the RS spl readings...they are still very different with low frq LFE when audysessy is on...so it definitely is cutting SPL's down low.
post #371 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

When you're setting up the mic to run Audyssey, are you placing it within about 18" from any wall? One of the common issues I've seen is with people placing the mic too close to room boundaries, which can cause Audyssey to cut bass frequencies affected by room-induced gain that might not actually exist where your ears normally are. Additionally, if you're holding a SPL meter while sitting in your listening position, you're holding it further away from where the Audyssey mic should have been placed (and putting your body's acoustics in the equation), meaning it may well read lower than it should (because your ears are closer to the back wall than the SPL meter and you're not reading rear wall reflections/gain with your body in the way). Just a thought. If you're not near the back wall, it doesn't really apply.

This effect of room boundaries on the equalization is part of why Audyssey recommends you do at least 6 mic positions - 3 at the seats and 3 a couple of feet in front of that. That helps it better analyze the effects of boundary gain on your subwoofer's in-room response and provide an equalization better suited for the general area. The first time I ran MultEQ XT, I just did a quick three position run with the mic near ear position (which unfortunately put it in front of the headrest of the seats, causing further acoustic issues with the equalization). The result was anemic bass. After more research, I re-ran all 8available positions with the mic slightly further into the room and at a height just above the headrests of my seating, and with phenomenally better results.

Check my FAQ I linked to earlier for some other placement/setup tips. Maybe your initial mic placement is throwing off the EQ'ing. Garbage in, garbage out, as the case may be.

I will give it another shot. My couch is near the back wall so when I do use a
Tripod with the mic it probably is within 2 feet of the back wall, at least at the 1st seating position...but not really with the other 5 placements.

I've run audyessy at least 10 times since I got the denon last January and I've never gotten proper LFE readings...always cuts them even if I turn down the sub gain prior to running it.

just frustrating because I really want it to work. But I never turn it on because of the missing LFE.....
post #372 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

Yes I'm using a Radio shack SPL and I am using the corrections.

I am comparing to before and after with applying audyessy, so it's definitely doing something just not what I would want with LFE.

An RTA chart would help to eveluate this better.
post #373 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

There has been a lot of discussion on the effect Audyssey has on very deep bass (below 25 Hz) which you can read about in the first hundred posts of this thread, and the "My AVR-3806 Audyssey Experience!" thread. The Audyssey system has to make some compromises due to limited computation capability, and it seems that rolling off the really deep bass (as a consequence of trying to keep everything above about 30 Hz flat) may be a consequence of that.

That said, you might check to see if there has been a firmware update for your AVR which might help. Most folks just turned up their sub level a few dB as a compromise.

I think the latest version in the new Onks with triple DSP engines don't have those limitations, and they're ready for the Pro software, which previous versions in those Denons aren't.
post #374 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

I get what you are saying but if I use my SPL meter with audyessy on and off and in the same position and get different readings on LFE then it still has to have an effect. Correction values regardless.

Lets just say I don't correct the RS spl readings...they are still very different with low frq LFE when audysessy is on...so it definitely is cutting SPL's down low.

Yeah but how do you decide which is correct? You may just prefer the higher read for personal reasons, but it won't make it necessarily "right" though. However eventually it is you who should be "happy" with any settings, so preference might trumps accuracy.
post #375 of 70911
"I've never gotten proper LFE readings...always cuts them even if I turn down the sub gain prior to running it."

Have you tried turning it *up* before cal?

I don't know how Audyssey determines a sub's capability, but it may assume yours' is low and decide to "baby" it if it's set low to begin with.
post #376 of 70911
Im confused on the terminology of crossover freq... Ran the audessey on my3808ci and now my big bad 15" sub is barely audible..

Heres what it set all my klipsch at
Fronts 40mhz (set to large) Epic C3 (250watt)
Center 60mhz
Rears 80mhz
LFE 80mhz

Questions 1. Before running audessy what volume level on the sub in back should my be set at low or high?

2. When it asks for distance to sub is that from prime listening area where you sit??

any help would be much appreciated!!
post #377 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by daron73m View Post

Im confused on the terminology of crossover freq... Ran the audessey on my3808ci and now my big bad 15" sub is barely audible..

Heres what it set all my klipsch at
Fronts 40mhz (set to large) Epic C3 (250watt)
Center 60mhz
Rears 80mhz
LFE 80mhz

No wonder. I'll bet you can't hear anything above 40mHz.

Quote:


Questions 1. Before running audessy what volume level on the sub in back should my be set at low or high?

I leave mine somewhere in the middle of its adjustment range.

Quote:


2. When it asks for distance to sub is that from prime listening area where you sit??

Audyssey doesn't ask that distance; it measures it.
post #378 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

I think the latest version in the new Onks with triple DSP engines don't have those limitations, and they're ready for the Pro software, which previous versions in those Denons aren't.

But jedi.night has a Denon 2807, not a late model Onk, so he may not have the latest version of Audyssey software.
post #379 of 70911
Hey Kal

So what should I set my fronts at if 40hz is not good?

thkyou

I dont really get the crossover concept. Its all numbers to me.

I did have to change distance of sub, audessey made it 14 ft and its at 8 actually.
post #380 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by daron73m View Post

Hey Kal
So what should I set my fronts at if 40hz is not good?

What are they? What is their LF response like?

Quote:


I dont really get the crossover concept. Its all numbers to me.

I did have to change distance of sub, audessey made it 14 ft and its at 8 actually.

Don't change it. Audyssey distance measurement includes the time/phase delays in the sub processing and is undoubtedly more correct than your tape measure can be (if all the other distances were OK).
post #381 of 70911
Hard to say LF response, Im not an audiophile so its tough for me to judge .

My fronts are klipsch epic CF3 paired with the KSFC5 center, r25 rears, and a KSW15 sub.
post #382 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by daron73m View Post

Hard to say LF response, Im not an audiophile so its tough for me to judge .

You don't need to be an audiophile, just look at the spec sheet for your speakers to find out their low frequency (LF) response. For example: your Epic Series CF-3 speakers go down to about 35Hz; the KSF-C5 centre speaker is spec'd down to 63Hz.

Sanjay
post #383 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"I've never gotten proper LFE readings...always cuts them even if I turn down the sub gain prior to running it."

Have you tried turning it *up* before cal?

I don't know how Audyssey determines a sub's capability, but it may assume yours' is low and decide to "baby" it if it's set low to begin with.

Yeah, If I turn my sub's gain to 10 am on the dial (not much 2nd slash) I would say about 30% of the subs gain, the audsessy resets my AVR's sub volume to -12 all the time, so It probably wants to turn the sub volume down even more. But the avr turns the sub off after -12....

I have to barely use the gain on the sub and set it to 20% power just to not have audyessy turn the sub on the avr to -12 out of a possible -12....
post #384 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

But jedi.night has a Denon 2807, not a late model Onk, so he may not have the latest version of Audyssey software.


Not sure what version mine has, and I looked on Denon's site. no updates or firmware for the 2807 or audyessy that I could find.....
post #385 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Yeah but how do you decide which is correct? You may just prefer the higher read for personal reasons, but it won't make it necessarily "right" though. However eventually it is you who should be "happy" with any settings, so preference might trumps accuracy.


Not sure what you mean...

Let me explain again.

If I take base readings with the Sub calibrated equal to my mains using AVIA and an RS SPL meter, I get a certain readout, with the various low LFE FRQ's of 16hz, 20hz, and 25hz all being within 3 or 4 db's of each other corrected for the SPL meter.
I would assume the above would be correct....since no EQ at all.


Then I run audyessy it reconfigures everything, sets my Sub's volume in the AVR to -12 which is as low is it can go.


I retake readings at 16 hz, 20hz and 25hz ( and various other points).

Compared to each other using audyessy on , 16 hz gets a 6db drop from 20hz and 25 hz gets a boost of 4 dbs or so. This is being compared to itself with audyessy.

If I then take these new audyessy on readings and compare them to my initial base readings with audyessy off and fully calibrated with avia, the overall drop in db's across all 3 of those LFE Frq's are down from 6-10 dbs....

So it must be cutting the FRQ's...

Even if the RS spl reads wrong, it's reading wrong across the board and showing the differences.....so if 100 dbs is really 90 dbs at 20hz then with audyessy on its really 80 dbs...

I hope this clears up what I'm trying to explain.

Thanks for the help and insight.
post #386 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

You don't need to be an audiophile, just look at the spec sheet for your speakers to find out their low frequency (LF) response. For example: your Epic Series CF-3 speakers go down to about 35Hz; the KSF-C5 centre speaker is spec'd down to 63Hz.
Sanjay

Assuming that those are reliable numbers, I would suggest that the OP cross the CF-3s at 50-60Hz and the C5 at 80Hz.
post #387 of 70911
While running the Audyssey MultEQ XT setup on my new NAD 775, and on the first microphone position, sometimes it gives me message to check the phase of a particular speaker. I checked and it was fine. What's odd is before it moves on to the second speaker, it will give me that message for the first speaker it sent the tone to. The left front. Isn't it impossible for a single speaker to out of phase? I could maybe understand if it gave me the message after testing the second speaker. What would make it think the first speaker is out of phase before testing the second one?
I have a typical setup. Bookshelf speakers about 14" from wall, 6 feet apart and the microphone in middle of room about 9 feet from speakers.
post #388 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

Not sure what you mean...

Let me explain again.

If I take base readings with the Sub calibrated equal to my mains using AVIA and an RS SPL meter, I get a certain readout, with the various low LFE FRQ's of 16hz, 20hz, and 25hz all being within 3 or 4 db's of each other corrected for the SPL meter.
I would assume the above would be correct....since no EQ at all.


Then I run audyessy it reconfigures everything, sets my Sub's volume in the AVR to -12 which is as low is it can go.


I retake readings at 16 hz, 20hz and 25hz ( and various other points).

Compared to each other using audyessy on , 16 hz gets a 6db drop from 20hz and 25 hz gets a boost of 4 dbs or so. This is being compared to itself with audyessy.

If I then take these new audyessy on readings and compare them to my initial base readings with audyessy off and fully calibrated with avia, the overall drop in db's across all 3 of those LFE Frq's are down from 6-10 dbs....

So it must be cutting the FRQ's...

Even if the RS spl reads wrong, it's reading wrong across the board and showing the differences.....so if 100 dbs is really 90 dbs at 20hz then with audyessy on its really 80 dbs...

I hope this clears up what I'm trying to explain.

Thanks for the help and insight.

A few things worth mentioning:

1) Avia's subwoofer level tones are located in the main channels (not the LFE channel), meaning they're dependant on a) your channel crossovers all being above 80Hz since the tones are 40-80Hz band limited in the individual channels, and b) speaker and sub being in phase since phase issues could create cancellation near the upper range of the 40-80Hz tone (or near the crossover range you've set for the speakers). It might be better for comparison's sake to use the tones in the AVR itself to match speaker to sub and then use Avia later (post-Audyssey) to verify proper speaker/sub interaction and levels.

2) Avia's subwoofer tones are uncorrected for C-weighted response with the Radio Shack meter. I've verified this by decrypting the 5.1 track from the disc and analyzing the resulting component channels produced from the bitstream (as part of a digital comparison I did between Avia and DVE - which no one should ever use to calibrate subwoofer levels because it is digitally incorrect and not band-limited). Assuming flat subwoofer response and volume set to reference, Avia should read 85dB in the speaker and around 83dB in the subwoofer tone (the freq. analysis on averaged C-weighting read 82.6dB if I recall). However, peaks between 40 and 80Hz may throw off overall level readings. If you were setting this so speaker and sub read the same pre-Audyssey, you were likely running your subwoofer 2-3dB hot to begin with.

3) Coarse level readings using 1/6 octave tones and a correction chart don't tell the whole story of in-room response, though they do help analyze peak/null issues. What they don't tell you is how response is in the time domain. Since Audyssey's filtering also alters time (which is what sets it apart from other room correction methods), coarse meter readings may not accurately show the overall effect it has on desired frequency response. For this, you would need a time-averaged RTA to really get a sense of whether MultEQ XT is doing what it is supposed to.

4) The aforementioned work in the time domain is aimed at ensuring that your ears hear the first impulse of sound more than the reflected sound from the room. If you are accustomed to a subwoofer sound muddied by reflected "bounces" of sound, the post-Audyssey result may sound tighter than you're used to. It may also sound subjectively "less" bassy than before, even if the sound is at the same level, since you're reducing ringing/smearing of the audio.

5) Audyssey strives to prevent distortion that can muddy up the sound. I can't say for sure ('cause I'm spitballing on this one - not basing it off anything Audyssey has said), but if your subwoofer moves too much into distortion as you approach 16Hz (which most will), I wonder if Audyssey may cut those lower frequencies slightly to produce an overall less-distorted result across the entire range of the subwoofer. This would be akin to using a subsonic filter to prevent distortion and damage to the subwoofer's driver from over-excursion. Just throwing it out there... but in my experience, Audyssey hasn't significantly reduced subsonics on my system. I'm running a SVS 20-39CS+ off a Samson 1,000w amp with an Onkyo 705 receiver, as well as a Buttkicker LFE off of the Samson's second channel. Before the 705, I was also using an ART-351 EQ to flatten subwoofer response and use as a subsonic filter, though I am now only using it to prevent over-excursion of the Buttkicker because Audyssey did such a great job smoothing out my sub's response. I actually had to turn the Buttkicker's level down a bit after Audyssey.
post #389 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by jedi.night View Post

Yeah, If I turn my sub's gain to 10 am on the dial (not much 2nd slash) I would say about 30% of the subs gain, the audsessy resets my AVR's sub volume to -12 all the time, so It probably wants to turn the sub volume down even more. But the avr turns the sub off after -12....

I have to barely use the gain on the sub and set it to 20% power just to not have audyessy turn the sub on the avr to -12 out of a possible -12....

I know this is crazy, but have you tried moving your subwoofer? While running a sub at 1/3 gain or less isn't unheard of to level match it (especially in smaller rooms), I wonder if your sub's placement is creating a room-induced peak that is throwing off either Audyssey's equalization or the overall level reading. Is your subwoofer placed close to a wall? Is it corner-loaded? Perhaps with more information, we can help figure out what's going on.
post #390 of 70911
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

I know this is crazy, but have you tried moving your subwoofer? While running a sub at 1/3 gain or less isn't unheard of to level match it (especially in smaller rooms), I wonder if your sub's placement is creating a room-induced peak that is throwing off either Audyssey's equalization or the overall level reading. Is your subwoofer placed close to a wall? Is it corner-loaded? Perhaps with more information, we can help figure out what's going on.

I hear ya,

I don't have much choice in placement though.

It's a PC-Ultra (2005 model with TV-12) in the Front left corner (so it is corner loaded).

I really don't anywhere else to place it.

I am also using an MBM-12 crossed from 50-80hz and it does a nice job of eliminating any peaks or nulls. It is located behind the couch at a nearfield position.
My NHT Classic 3's are crossed at 80hz in the AVR.
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