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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1234

post #36991 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

And you're saying that if Audyssey categorically state that you should measure the room in the same state as you will listen after measurement, that this would be *wrong*?

I don't say that it's *wrong*!
Only that you should take the time and check for yourself. One could actually learn something from doing so...

If the statement above would be something you categorically should do, then you must:
1) Always calibrate with yourself placed in sweet spot.
2) Calibrate whenever a new person enters the calibrated area.
3) Calibrate whenever objects changes or moves in the calibrated area.

I have calibrated a lot of rooms and home cinemas, so this experience is not only based on results in my own room.

But, heck - do as you please.
post #36992 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoKo2001 View Post

I don't say that it's *wrong*!
Only that you should take the time and check for yourself. One could actually learn something from doing so...

If the statement above would be something you categorically should do, then you must:
1) Always calibrate with yourself placed in sweet spot.
2) Calibrate whenever a new person enters the calibrated area.
3) Calibrate whenever objects changes or moves in the calibrated area.

I have calibrated a lot of rooms and home cinemas, so this experience is not only based on results in my own room.

But, heck - do as you please.


Probably a bit over the top, although I can out over the top you there. But to begin with, what's the theoretical difference between me removing the evil marble coffee table between me and my speakers before measuring and, say, removing the walls before measuring? Audyssey is intended to correct for FR deviations that occur because of reflections. Why eliminate the source of reflections that will cause FR deviations in use? Of course, if I want to be really overboard, I would recalibrate if I had a stack of magazines on the table or a glass of soda, or before each listening session by having every person in the room sit where they will be during the listening session. If it's just me, I'd recalibrate whenever I change clothes. Surely a thick sweater versus a cotton t shirt might make a difference. But there's a limit in my view to what's reasonable.
post #36993 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoKo2001 View Post

But, heck - do as you please.

I prefer to take the advice of the founder and CTO of Audyssey, and the advice of the dozens of people who have been contributing in this forum for years, over yours.

Any idea why you need to increase the trim of your sub by 10 dB after calibration?

Kind Regards,

Keith
post #36994 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Any idea why you need to increase the trim of your sub by 10 dB after calibration?

I guess you are better off asking the founder and CTO of Audyssey about that.
post #36995 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Probably a bit over the top, although I can out over the top you there. But to begin with, what's the theoretical difference between me removing the evil marble coffee table between me and my speakers before measuring and, say, removing the walls before measuring? Audyssey is intended to correct for FR deviations that occur because of reflections. Why eliminate the source of reflections that will cause FR deviations in use? Of course, if I want to be really overboard, I would recalibrate if I had a stack of magazines on the table or a glass of soda, or before each listening session by having every person in the room sit where they will be during the listening session. If it's just me, I'd recalibrate whenever I change clothes. Surely a thick sweater versus a cotton t shirt might make a difference. But there's a limit in my view to what's reasonable.

I think the ultimate in 'out-over-the-topping' would be to recommend watching all your movies totally nude. Eliminates yet another variable

Kind Regards,

Keith
post #36996 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think the ultimate in 'out-over-the-topping' would be to recommend watching all your movies totally nude. Eliminates yet another variable

Not necessarily... There might just be one "variable" left...
post #36997 of 70901
That the advice is to raise the measurement mic above the seat back even if one's ears are below the top when sitting is an indication that there are some room conditions that need to be ignored to get good results with Audyssey. The pedantic and extreme arguments aside, I would put a big glare-y coffee table in front of the MLP as one of those.

Of course, I would never have a big coffee table in front, nor would I have seat backs that interfered with me hearing the surrounds/back surrounds, but I understand how multi-function rooms cannot be as "pure" as a dedicated theater.

Jeff
post #36998 of 70901
Not necessarily.
Watching from outside the room would be even more "puristic", because no nude body and its reflections and resonances would interact with the sound...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701
I think the ultimate in 'out-over-the-topping' would be to recommend watching all your movies totally nude. Eliminates yet another variable
post #36999 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

PS I've read a lot on this thread about measurements taken with REW, XTZ, and other software, and my number one priority is actually to get a good "before" shot of my room so I can see exactly how bad it is, where my major modes are, and what it is exactly that Audyssey has to work with. Can anyone recommend the "cheapest" (and kinda easy for a relative newbie like me) way I might be able to get this accomplished? I kind of want to "see" what it is I'm working with before investing in a license for my 5805CI because I'm hoping I'll have a new Pre-Pro w/ XT32 really soon. Either way, I want to get a better picture of exactly what all Audyssey is in for and so I can maybe learn how to better position my speakers/subs, add absorption/diffusion materials, etc.

First, It's important to realize what room measuring software will, and will not, do for you. Most of the goals you laid out can be performed without any room measuring software at all. Room measuring equipment can be helpful to let you know when to stop with the room treatments, but when using it to help you actually place the treatments around the room it is less helpful and generally requires an advanced understanding of the software and interpretation of the graphs. It is akin to using IBM's Watson to solve a problem of simple addition - it works, but is unnecessary overkill. The use of a mirror for first reflection points and as much bass traps as you can possibly get in the corners will get you great results with little headache. Various room measurements before and after treatments are, however, helpful to let you know when enough is enough.

Where room measuring software is most helpful is with optimizing the position of speakers and subs prior to EQ. The use of a Real Time Analyzer(RTA) for the positioning of multiple subs is priceless and can save countless hours of trial and error. As well, it can provide solutions for simple parametric EQ's to tame the room modes not amenable to speaker position optimization. I think you will find the room measuring to be most helpful, and most used, to optimize the bass region of the FR curve and to help with sub/satellite integration and crossovers.

What Audyssey "is in for" is irrelevant. The measuring software will be helpful to make your room as good as money, time, and WAF allow - then run Audyssey. See if you like it. Although there is some tweaking of various things with Audyssey, and a couple more with Audyssey Pro, generally speaking Audyssey is not designed to be "tweaked". It is mostly a "take it or leave it" solution with the "tweaking" intended to happen BEFORE Audyssey is introduced.

For the least money and most flexibility, but the steeper learning curve and most headaches I suggest REW. For more money and less flexibility, but easily the most user friendly(particularly for noob's) would be the Dayton Omnimic. The Omnimic is my recommendation as I have used both, but it is initially more costly.

Good luck
post #37000 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

First, It's important to realize what room measuring software will, and will not, do for you. Most of the goals you laid out can be performed without any room measuring software at all. Room measuring equipment can be helpful to let you know when to stop with the room treatments, but when using it to help you actually place the treatments around the room it is less helpful and generally requires an advanced understanding of the software and interpretation of the graphs.

I'd say the opposite is true. An ETC is very easy to interpret and most helpful in finding "bad" reflections. For example, my room shows a relatively loud contralateral 2nd order reflection. That kind of information can only be derived from measurements.

post #37001 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think the ultimate in 'out-over-the-topping' would be to recommend watching all your movies totally nude. Eliminates yet another variable

Kind Regards,

Keith

Even then . . . I'm one of those folks whose, uh, poundage is variable over time. I wonder if I absorb more bass when I'm, shall we say, fluffier?
post #37002 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Even then . . . I'm one of those folks whose, uh, poundage is variable over time. I wonder if I absorb more bass when I'm, shall we say, fluffier?

Hahaha. I have been out out over the topped!

Kind Regards,

Keith
post #37003 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

I ran Audyssey MultEQ XT the other day and results were
fronts 40hz
center 40hz
surrounds 40hz

I spoke to chris about this via facebook chat. He explained to me that I should have the LFE at 120hz. I usually just run all speakers at 80hz so the bass is redirected to the subs where I figured it should be. Am I wrong in doing this?

I think this is covered on almost every other page of this thread

The recommendation from Audyssey is that if you have anything other than XT32, then you should cross over all speakers at 80hz and let the sub handle below 80hz. The sub "crossover" is really a low pass filter for the LFE channel. The LFE channel (the .1 channel) carries effects, separate from the sound on the other speakes and those effects are spec'd to be less than 120hz....so that crossover/LPF should be set to 120 hz so you don't miss any content.

With XT32, things change and lower speaker crossovers may work better in a given environment but the LPF should still be set for 120hz.

If you have any confusion on this, just read back in the forum and you will find the information said many different ways
post #37004 of 70901
and your reasoning for going back almost 5-6 pages to find this post was...?
We were actually talking about the differences between xt32 and the xt.
This was discussed and solved, so why did you feel the need to discuss it further is beyond me.
post #37005 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

I'd say the opposite is true. An ETC is very easy to interpret and most helpful in finding "bad" reflections. For example, my room shows a relatively loud contralateral 2nd order reflection. That kind of information can only be derived from measurements.


I don't disagree it can't be used, but to say the Time Envelope Curve is easy to interpret assumes a knowledge level many of us don't posess. I have measuring equipment for the past 6 months and I have to admit I have never seen that graph, nor do I know how to interpret it. My response was to someone who has never seen measuring equipment, nor used it. I assume he is far worse off than I am and my response to him was aimed at his knowledge level.

I would, in fact, appreciate if you could explain to me how to interpret the graph and apply that to the room problem. It would be another quiver in my arsenal.

Thanks
post #37006 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

I'll take a second stab at this...
Do you want to adjust bass and treble on top of audyssey for music sources and disable those bass and treble adjustments for movie sources (inputs)?
Well, then you can do it with selecting "Stereo" or "DPLIIx Music" etc for your music sources in the listening mode presets and setup "THX Cinema" or "PLIIx Movie THX Cinema" etc for your movie sources in the listening mode presets.
Then the bass/treble adjustments will be enabled for music and disabled for movies.
I double checked that it works even if "Preserve THX Settings" is set to No.

Thanks rickardl-I want to adj just the Aux1 bass. When I went to 3-1 Tone control, and dropped the SW Bass, it changed the bass globally-not just for the Aux.1 input...I have the Aux1 input set up for Aud. with PLIIxMusic and the movies set up for PLIIx//THX Cinema-all w/Audyssey DEQ engaged. After that didn't seem to work, I adj. the Tone control on the face of the 876 for the bass and lowered it -5db while listening to the Aux1 input. Would this also drop the bass for all inputs -5db or just the Aux1 input?

Appreciate the assistance.

Bob.
post #37007 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post


This is most likely due to room gain. Are they in a corner/up against a wall? I wouldn't worry about it too much, but definitely agree on setting them up to 80hz or so. If they're rated for 100hz then I suppose you could do that too, but then the frequencies between 80hz and 100hz are (most say, however, Jeff [Pepar] has crossovers of 100hz also and reports this works best for him, his room, his setup, and I know he knows what he's doing! YMMV) technically more localizable and you don't want to be able to "localize" your subwoofer, especially for height channel info. I really don't think this is an issue and I think you made a good choice going in the middle to 90hz.

Remember, you can always manually RAISE the crossover Audyssey recommends but never LOWER it as Audyssey measures the -3db point of your speakers, sets the crossovers to the next nearest bump from that, and does NOT correct below that, so it can utilize the resolution of the filter for that speaker in more appropriate areas where it matters and can do you the most good.

The most important question is, now that you've run the setup twice, with as little noise as possible, read the setup guide, did all 8 points, etc, etc, how does it "Sound?"

EDIT: Anyway, Jeff beat me to it, answered your question, and in a much simpler way. I tend to get carried away and talk too much, lol. I am curious as to how it sounds now though. Are you happy with the results?

--J

Thanks for your help. I recalibrated with all devices OFF in my apartment, and am very impressed with the results. Vocal clarity coming from my center is fantastic.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

It indicates the measured noise floor was still over 45db. If there is any way to get it quieter, great. Otherwise, since you didn't max it out by going to the third and loudest set, it "should" be okay and definitely much better than before.

This concerns me because my house was dead silent! Could it be that since my walls are nearly completely bare, the sound waves are getting screwed? I had everything OFF including my PC's and even refrigerator.
post #37008 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I have measuring equipment for the past 6 months and I have to admit I have never seen that graph, nor do I know how to interpret it.

Read the REW documentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I would, in fact, appreciate if you could explain to me how to interpret the graph and apply that to the room problem.

Simply put, an ETC shows the room response over time. The spikes after the initial peak (which is the direct sound) are single reflections. To generate meaningful data I run a sweep from 200Hz in order to filter out low frequency effects.

The first two milliseconds in the graph is the "coffee table zone" - everything there is bad, very bad. At 4ms you see a ceiling reflection followed by a contralateral reflection from a wall and the ceiling after about 10ms.
post #37009 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghstudio View Post

I think this is covered on almost every other page of this thread

The recommendation from Audyssey is that if you have anything other than XT32, then you should cross over all speakers at 80hz and let the sub handle below 80hz. The sub "crossover" is really a low pass filter for the LFE channel. The LFE channel (the .1 channel) carries effects, separate from the sound on the other speakes and those effects are spec'd to be less than 120hz....so that crossover/LPF should be set to 120 hz so you don't miss any content.

With XT32, things change and lower speaker crossovers may work better in a given environment but the LPF should still be set for 120hz.

If you have any confusion on this, just read back in the forum and you will find the information said many different ways

I forgot this, so my basement HT room Dec-2007 Denon AVR-4308CI which has "just" XT, I should set my Frt R/L/C speakers as small and 80HZ xover, even if the come back as large which they do....thx for the reminder!

Guess I'll upgrade to another A/V in 1-2 years with XT32 for the basement HT, and the Denon AVR-4308CI then will move into the family room HT, which now has a 11 year old Onkyo 787...(still works fine actually)
post #37010 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by DOBE View Post

.... I have 3 front/center M&K S-150P (powered, bi-amped) speakers and 2 side plus 2 back M&K non-powered speakers. All speakers are the exact same design (3 vertical tweeters beside 2 midrange drivers). The only difference is the surrounds are non-powered. All the M&K's were designed to work with a strong sub and cross over at 80 Hz.

I took 8 measurements 2 times and I get slightly different levels but the same cross-overs .

FL: 2.0
FR: 1.5
C: 2.5
Sub: 8.5
SL: 3.5
SR: 3.5
SBL: 5.0
SBR: 5.5

The Hi-pass filter is 80 Hz. The gain for the front/center speakers can be set between +6 to -6. The setting is now on "REF".

As I said, M&K is clear in their manual that the cross-over should always be 80 hz and the speakers are intended for use with a strong sub.

Yet the Audyssey set the Fronts/Center to 40 hz. With only tweeters and mid-range drivers, I wouldn't want to hear what they do with frequencies below 80. There's no doubt that my SVS Ultra will do a much better job with frequencies below 80 hz.

The side surrounds were set at 100 Hz and the S Backs were set at 90Hz.

Any ideas as to why the front cross-overs were set so low? Any suggestions for getting better results? Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Where they are in your room, they measure lower than 80Hz. My M&K S-150s (same w/o powered) LCR also come up 40Hz. I set them to 100Hz, and you should probably bump them to 80Hz ... and enjoy.

My SS-150 surrounds (Tripole) are at 120Hz, and my SS-150 rear surrounds (monopole) are 100Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Audyssey doesn’t set the crossovers. Your receiver does. Audyssey measures the actual in-room response to the -3dB point and passes its findings to the AVR which then sets the XO. Something in your room is boosting the low frequencies of your mains. It could be they are closer to a wall than when they were tested in an anechoic chamber at M&K for example. But you are correct - the general advice is to raise the XO to 80Hz or thereabouts and then to do further tweaking, if necessary, after listening to how the system sounds to you ....

Kind Regards,

Keith

Thanks for the responses. For clarification, I'm using the Audyssey XT not the XT32

1. Guys, Is there any good reason to to change the gain on the fronts/center amps (-6 to +6 -- now set at "REF") and re-run Audyssey?

2. Do you recommend keeping the Tripoles at 100Hz and 90Hz or should all speaker X-overs be set at 80Hz as suggested by M&K? I'm not sure it matters as much with the surrounds, but I may be wrong. I like active surrounds and it seems as if there would be activity if the surrounds were set at 80Hz. No?

3. pepar, I'm also using the SS-150s as sides and rears. I may turn them into Dipoles and re-run Audyssey. Do you get better results with the rears set-up as monopoles/Dipoles Vs Tripoles?

Thanks.
post #37011 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by perritterd View Post

Thanks rickardl-I want to adj just the Aux1 bass. When I went to 3-1 Tone control, and dropped the SW Bass, it changed the bass globally-not just for the Aux.1 input...I have the Aux1 input set up for Aud. with PLIIxMusic and the movies set up for PLIIx//THX Cinema-all w/Audyssey DEQ engaged. After that didn't seem to work, I adj. the Tone control on the face of the 876 for the bass and lowered it -5db while listening to the Aux1 input. Would this also drop the bass for all inputs -5db or just the Aux1 input?

Appreciate the assistance.

Bob.

The changes to the tone controls in "3-1" are global but are not in effect when you have a THX listening mode enabled.
So. if you have only non-THX listening mode presets for Aux1 and have
THX movie listening modes for your other movie inputs, you are good.
From the manual:
The tone control circuits are bypassed when the

Direct, Pure Audio or THX listening mode is selected.
post #37012 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Read the REW documentation.



Simply put, an ETC shows the room response over time. The spikes after the initial peak (which is the direct sound) are single reflections. To generate meaningful data I run a sweep from 200Hz in order to filter out low frequency effects.

The first two milliseconds in the graph is the "coffee table zone" - everything there is bad, very bad. At 4ms you see a ceiling reflection followed by a contralateral reflection from a wall and the ceiling after about 10ms.

Thanks. Although I see the academic utility of this, I still don't see how you would know exactly where on the wall the reflection is coming from? If one doesn't know from where on the wall the reflection came, how could this information be used to guide placement of treatments in the room?
post #37013 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I still don't see how you would know exactly where on the wall the reflection is coming from? If one doesn't know from where on the wall the reflection came, how could this information be used to guide placement of treatments in the room?

Measure, look at the ETC, move the speaker, measure again, look at the ETC again. How did the reflections change in time? This will give you a hint where the reflection is coming from.
Arrival time of the spikes give you a hint where the reflections are coming from.
Put a open cell foam board at locations where you suspect the reflection point. Confirm with an ETC.
post #37014 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

The changes to the tone controls in "3-1" are global but not when you have a THX listening mode enabled.
So. if you have only non-THX listening mode presets for Aux1 and have
THX movie listening modes for your other movie inputs, you are good.
From the manual:
The tone control circuits are bypassed when the
Direct, Pure Audio or THX listening mode is selected.

Thank you very much rickardl. That was the info I needed. Much appreciated

Bob
post #37015 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post


Measure, look at the ETC, move the speaker, measure again, look at the ETC again. How did the reflections change in time? This will give you a hint where the reflection is coming from.
Arrival time of the spikes give you a hint where the reflections are coming from.
Put a open cell foam board at locations where you suspect the reflection point. Confirm with an ETC.

Thank-you. Helpful and good to know.
post #37016 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by DOBE View Post

Thanks for the responses. For clarification, I'm using the Audyssey XT not the XT32

1. Guys, Is there any good reason to to change the gain on the fronts/center amps (-6 to +6 -- now set at "REF") and re-run Audyssey?

2. Do you recommend keeping the Tripoles at 100Hz and 90Hz or should all speaker X-overs be set at 80Hz as suggested by M&K? I'm not sure it matters as much with the surrounds, but I may be wrong. I like active surrounds and it seems as if there would be activity if the surrounds were set at 80Hz. No?

3. pepar, I'm also using the SS-150s as sides and rears. I may turn them into Dipoles and re-run Audyssey. Do you get better results with the rears set-up as monopoles/Dipoles Vs Tripoles?

Sorry for not replying sooner. I had a major travel malfunction yesterday.

Unless your receiver/processor channel trims are at or near maxed out, I don't see any need to change them.

There is no harm in having your M&Ks crossed higher than 80Hz, though you might have reasons to not have them above 80Hz, e.g. the one you mention.

I had used my surrounds as dipoles from day one, but recently changed them to tripole. I prefer them at tripole because I like the balance of direct/diffuse sound that they produce. Plus, due to the "directionality" of the monopole component going "over the head" of the nearest seat (three seats in a row), the right surround does not overwhelm the right seat and the left surround does not overwhelm the left seat. Beyond that, that directional component now makes the right surround more audible in the left seat and .. vice versa. So the sweet spot for the surround effect has been made larger.

My rear surrounds, as per THX Ultra2 ASA recommendations are monopole and collocated. I believe THX has walked that recommendation back and my upcoming redo of the rear of my theater will have those surrounds separated and - probably - set to tripole mode.

Jeff
post #37017 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

Not necessarily.
Watching from outside the room would be even more "puristic", because no nude body and its reflections and resonances would interact with the sound...

I have not laughed so much in recent days as I did after reading this. It actually helped me put things in perspective as well when I am sometimes spending so much time on "sound" that we do not have time to listen to the music.
post #37018 of 70901
Folks,

I have been using MCAA for years. First thing I noticed with Audyssey XT32 on the Denon is that there seems to be just one audible sound test done, while Pioneer's MCAA seems to have several for FULL Phase bandwith equalization.

Can someone explain why Audyssey doesn't seem to need any of these tests?

Also I've been comparing the built-in test with microphone to the professional installer's kit with software walk-through, and it is very hard for me to discern any audible differences between the two, which I suppose is good for those enthusiasts, but the question I have is what are we actually gaining in terms of actual measurement and calibration with the professional kit/mic/pre-amp?

-Online Access to calibrations done
-before and after reports
-tech support?
-better caliibrated mic for more accurate measurements?
-guided software?
-nice stand
Can someone explain if there is any additional calculations done with the software than what's built-in to the out of the box calibration with included mic?

before and after chart included, not seeing any difference in results from built-in and kit, but I am sure I'm missing some important feature

 

Audyssey Professional Output Results.pdf 471.0654296875k . file
post #37019 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotchaa View Post

Folks,

I have been using MCAA for years. First thing I noticed with Audyssey XT32 on the Denon is that there seems to be just one audible sound test done, while Pioneer's MCAA seems to have several for FULL Phase bandwith equalization.

Can someone explain why Audyssey doesn't seem to need any of these tests?

They are full range sweeps, but it happens faster than you can hear it.
post #37020 of 70901
Hi Guys, question on placement of speakers for Heights and Wides for DSX setup. The diagram in Chris note looks pretty clear however where do you measure from to the the 60 degress(wides) and 45 deg (heights). It states that for the wides you measure from the centre speaker to the front mains then double that and that is where you place your wides. I would believe that it would matter where the MLP was to get the 60 deg, right? Do you just make a triangle from the centre to wide to MLP and adjust the wide to centre distance and it forms a 60 deg angle???

Hurk
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)