or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1235

post #37021 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurk View Post

Hi Guys, question on placement of speakers for Heights and Wides for DSX setup. The diagram in Chris note looks pretty clear however where do you measure from to the the 60 degress(wides) and 45 deg (heights). It states that for the wides you measure from the centre speaker to the front mains then double that and that is where you place your wides. I would believe that it would matter where the MLP was to get the 60 deg, right? Do you just make a triangle from the centre to wide to MLP and adjust the wide to centre distance and it forms a 60 deg angle???

Hurk

Yes.
post #37022 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotchaa View Post


Also I've been comparing the built-in test with microphone to the professional installer's kit with software walk-through, and it is very hard for me to discern any audible differences between the two, which I suppose is good for those enthusiasts, but the question I have is what are we actually gaining in terms of actual measurement and calibration with the professional kit/mic/pre-amp?

In my system, the already excellent integration of surrounds with the fronts (from MultEQ XT) improved with a Pro calibration. Ditto the integration of the subs with the main channels.

Plus I was able to use the Curve Editor to tweak the system response to fix a too thin range around 200Hz (a tenor sax) and a too bitey female vocal sound at 7k.

On top of that, I have an alternate surround configuration ... monopoles at 125 degree that are identical to LCR .. that I manually swap for the 90 degree tripoles when I listen to SACD/DVD-Audio. I have two sets of measurements .. one for each speaker configuration .. and I load the corresponding set to match the speakers.

Jeff
post #37023 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

On top of that, I have an alternate surround configuration ... monopoles at 125 degree that are identical to LCR .. that I manually swap in when I listen to SACD/DVD-Audio. I have two sets of measurements .. one for each speaker configuration .. and I load the corresponding set to match the speakers.

Curious how long it takes to swap-out the settings?

My Denon AVR-3311ci can backup/restore through a web browser. (not just Audyssey settings but all settings).

Only two problems: it takes several minutes, and it just plain doesn't work (at least on my receiver). I've been able to successfully backup, though not all the time. When it fails, it produces a file of all zeros. It will start working again if I do a microprocessor reset. Catch-22: this resets all the settings to defaults and clears the Audyssey data. And I've never been able to successfully restore from a backup.

I don't want to give up the receiver during repair, so I live with it...
post #37024 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtara View Post

Curious how long it takes to swap-out the settings?

My Denon AVR-3311ci can backup/restore through a web browser. (not just Audyssey settings but all settings).

Only two problems: it takes several minutes, and it just plain doesn't work (at least on my receiver). I've been able to successfully backup, though not all the time. When it fails, it produces a file of all zeros. It will start working again if I do a microprocessor reset. Catch-22: this resets all the settings to defaults and clears the Audyssey data. And I've never been able to successfully restore from a backup.

I don't want to give up the receiver during repair, so I live with it...

I'm not Pepar but ... on my Denon 4311, the restoration of a saved Pro file for 8 mic readings takes around 8 minutes. My sense is that the more mic readings you make, the longer it takes.

Mark
post #37025 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtara View Post

Curious how long it takes to swap-out the settings?

It is not .. elegant.

Setup the laptop, interface with the pre/pro, launch MultEQ Pro, get a new key from Audyssey's website (they only last 30 days), load the measurement file, re-select the crossover settings, load the edited target curve, calculate the filters and upload them to the pre/pro.

It works and it's the only way I know of to accommodate my two sets of surrounds. The tripoles are to my ears the best for movies and concerts while the monopoles are the best for hi-res multichannel music, so I do what I need to do.
post #37026 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon D View Post

Thanks Larry.

I found a video which touches on this, and it's the only Audyssey video/tutorial I've found so far. I think getting to actually see experts run their own tests in various rooms helps a great deal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okyNlhJ3Hvo

Thanks. That link heps alot. Easier when you see other people doing it
post #37027 of 70895
Hi guys. I wonder if anyone can help me with this. Anyone got a view on using dipoles but in bipole mode for DSX height speakers? For various reasons this would be a very practical solution for me but the Audyssey advice on Heights is to use direct radiators. I have asked Chris on the Ask Audyssey site and he says they will "probably be fine", but he's not sure as they haven't done any real testing with bipoles.

Anyone got any comments or thoughts?

Jeff - how about your tripoles? Would they work if you could switch them to a monopole mode?

Thanks for any help anyone can give, or indeed any insight at all into this.

Kind Regards,

Keith
post #37028 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Hi guys. I wonder if anyone can help me with this. Anyone got a view on using dipoles but in bipole mode for DSX height speakers? For various reasons this would be a very practical solution for me but the Audyssey advice on Heights is to use direct radiators. I have asked Chris on the Ask Audyssey site and he says they will "probably be fine", but he's not sure as they haven't done any real testing with bipoles.

Anyone got any comments or thoughts?

Jeff - how about your tripoles? Would they work if you could switch them to a monopole mode?

Thanks for any help anyone can give, or indeed any insight at all into this.

Kind Regards,

Keith
Hi Keith,

I'm using a pair of wall mounted Atlantic Technology 1400 SRz bipole/dipole speakers in bipole configuration for my front height channels. Because of room limitations and the fact that I use both DSX and DPLIIz listening modes (depending on source material) I've mounted these speakers about 1 meter above my L&R front speakers and placed them a little wider than Dolby's recommendation but a bit closer together than DSX specifies, if this description makes any sense to you.

It's certainly a compromise solution, but I must work within the limitations that I've chosen to live under and I find that it provides a listening experience that suits me very well. When I switch out of either height listening mode I really notice the lack of the height channels, but naturally the degree of that loss heavily depends upon what I'm watching/listening to at the time.

I hope that this is helpful to you.

Cheers,
SB
post #37029 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post
Hi Keith,

I'm using a pair of wall mounted Atlantic Technology 1400 SRz bipole/dipole speakers in bipole configuration for my front height channels. Because of room limitations and the fact that I use both DSX and DPLIIz listening modes (depending on source material) I've mounted these speakers about 1 meter above my L&R front speakers and placed them a little wider than Dolby's recommendation but a bit closer together than DSX specifies, if this description makes any sense to you.

It's certainly a compromise solution, but I must work within the limitations that I've chosen to live under and I find that it provides a listening experience that suits me very well. When I switch out of either height listening mode I really notice the lack of the height channels, but naturally the degree of that loss heavily depends upon what I'm watching/listening to at the time.

I hope that this is helpful to you.

Cheers,
SB
That is indeed helpful SB thanks. My own current height speakers are 4.5 feet above the L&R and also wider than Dolby suggests but a little narrower than Audyssey suggests. I did that on purpose in fact so that I could use THX Dolby PLIIz as an alternative to DSX sometimes. In fact, I have rarely done so as I prefer DSX to PLIIz anyway, so I could remount them to be more like the Audyssey spec.

It's interesting that you mention that when you switch out of Height mode you notice the loss depending "upon what I'm watching/listening to at the time". I take this to mean that you find the effect of the Height speakers to be quite source-dependent. I find that the Height channels add to *whatever* I am listening to, not in the sense of always providing specific "height" cues, but in terms of this huge "wall of sound" that I get when the Heights are engaged. IOW, no matter what I have in the player, I always notice the soundstage collapsing downwards when I turn the height channels off. Of course, if there are height cues in the material, such as helicopters, thunder etc etc then they disappear if DSX is disengaged.

Could you, or anyone, please comment on that paragraph for me as I may be misunderstanding you. I am wondering if the experience you describe is different from mine and could in some way be attributed to the bipoles?

I am having to import the speakers I am considering from the US as they are not available here in the UK so this will be a leap of faith for me - I cannot audition them before I commit myself. I can always return them of course within the exchange window but it's such a PITA to do so that I’d rather try to get a better idea from the guys on here if I can of what I might discover on installing them.

Thanks very much for your reply - it's interesting that you are using dipoles in bipole mode. If you could comment on my query above, I would be most grateful.

Kind Regards,

Keith

EDIT: Interesting that the reviews say that your Atlantic Technology di/bipoles were specifically designed for height channel use. http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/At...Speakers.shtml

Chris also says I should "probably be fine" so maybe this will work for me.
post #37030 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That is indeed helpful SB thanks. My own current height speakers are 4.5 feet above the L&R and also wider than Dolby suggests but a little narrower than Audyssey suggests. I did that on purpose in fact so that I could use THX Dolby PLIIz as an alternative to DSX sometimes. In fact, I have rarely done so as I prefer DSX to PLIIz anyway, so I could remount them to be more like the Audyssey spec.

It's interesting that you mention that when you switch out of Height mode you notice the loss depending "upon what I'm watching/listening to at the time". I take this to mean that you find the effect of the Height speakers to be quite source-dependent. I find that the Height channels add to *whatever* I am listening to, not in the sense of always providing specific "height" cues, but in terms of this huge "wall of sound" that I get when the Heights are engaged. IOW, no matter what I have in the player, I always notice the soundstage collapsing downwards when I turn the height channels off. Of course, if there are height cues in the material, such as helicopters, thunder etc etc then they disappear if DSX is disengaged.

Could you, or anyone, please comment on that paragraph for me as I may be misunderstanding you. I am wondering if the experience you describe is different from mine and could in some way be attributed to the bipoles?

I am having to import the speakers I am considering from the US as they are not available here in the UK so this will be a leap of faith for me - I cannot audition them before I commit myself. I can always return them of course within the exchange window but it's such a PITA to do so that I’d rather try to get a better idea from the guys on here if I can of what I might discover on installing them.

Thanks very much for your reply - it's interesting that you are using dipoles in bipole mode. If you could comment on my query above, I would be most grateful.

Kind Regards,

Keith

EDIT: Interesting that the reviews say that your Atlantic Technology di/bipoles were specifically designed for height channel use. http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/At...Speakers.shtml

Chris also says I should "probably be fine" so maybe this will work for me.

Keith,
Indeed, the "wall of sound", as you so aptly put it, is always there when I'm playing music (mainly 2-channel CD's) and I love it! I mostly listen to rock music, and no matter what the stereo purists think - who's to say just what the guys in the mixing room intened the listener to hear anyway
I find that this exact same effect is also present with movies, but some films have certain height cues that are very noticable while others seem to lack them to one degree or another, and I really get a kick out of them when they're present. I suppose that all depends on what the disc mixer had in mind along with how much information DSX or Dolby PLIIz is able to extract from the mix. Just a thought, as I'm not at all knowledgable about what goes on behind the scenes. After experiencing my height channels I wouldn't go back!

The 1400 SRz speakers are switchable between dipole and bipole modes. I think that using them for front heights in their dipole mode would make the soundfield too difuse for that application. The distinct height cues would tend to be lost, as this mode tends to produce ambience with minimal localization. Try the helicopter attack scene in Apocalypse Now for an example of what I'm trying to illustrate.
I believe that my speakers in bipole mode localize the sound, but also tend to widen the soundstage to a degree, which is an advantage in my narrow space that won't handle wide channels, but that's probably not what Audyssey had in mind when they set their guidelines for DSX speaker placement. But at this point they work for me and ultimately that's what counts, doesn't it?

I chose the AT 1400SRz speaker for several reasons:

The rest of my speakers (excluding subs) are AT's consisting of a pair of FS-3200 LR's and an FS-3200 C across the front, a pair of 2400 SR's (in dipole mode) for the side surrounds, and another pair of 2400 SR's (in bipole mode) for the rear surrounds. I wanted a timbre match, and this was the easiest way to achieve it. Also the matching cosmetics was a big plus for the all-important WAF.

My local dealer is very accomodating and I've been doing business with him for over two decades. He agreed to take the 1400 SRz's back if I wasn't satisfied with them in a reasonable amount of time. Add that to the fact that I prefer to spend my money locally if at all possible, and you can see that this decision was a no-brainer.

The price of the 1400 SRz's was low enough that I could always repurpose them for Zone 2 use should I decide that I no longer wanted them as front height speakers sometime in the future.

I'd be more that happy to discuss this further if you have any other questions/comments

Cheers,
SB

Edited to add: Have you tried the DPLIIx+DSX cinema listening mode and what did you think of it?
post #37031 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi guys. I wonder if anyone can help me with this. Anyone got a view on using dipoles but in bipole mode for DSX height speakers? For various reasons this would be a very practical solution for me but the Audyssey advice on Heights is to use direct radiators. I have asked Chris on the Ask Audyssey site and he says they will "probably be fine", but he's not sure as they haven't done any real testing with bipoles.

Anyone got any comments or thoughts?

Jeff - how about your tripoles? Would they work if you could switch them to a monopole mode?

Thanks for any help anyone can give, or indeed any insight at all into this.

Hi Keith,

Sure, the M&K SS-150 can be configured as dipoles, monopoles or tripoles. And they certainly fit the "same family" criteria for Wides/Heights, but when DSX hit I managed to purchase another pair of S-150s on eBay. When I do "go" Wide, it will be with spkrs identical to the LCR.

Jeff
post #37032 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

Keith,
Indeed, the "wall of sound", as you so aptly put it, is always there when I'm playing music (mainly 2-channel CD's) and I love it! I mostly listen to rock music, and no matter what the stereo purists think - who's to say just what the guys in the mixing room intened the listener to hear anyway
I find that this exact same effect is also present with movies, but some films have certain height cues that are very noticable while others seem to lack them to one degree or another, and I really get a kick out of them when they're present.

This is very helpful SB. This is what I currently find. The 'wall of sound' is always present but some source material also places things up there in the height channels very specifically. Seems we are hearing very similar things, you with your bipoles and me with my current direct radiators.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

After experiencing my height channels I wouldn't go back!

You and me both!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

The 1400 SRz speakers are switchable between dipole and bipole modes. I think that using them for front heights in their dipole mode would make the soundfield too difuse for that application.

Yes, my thinking tells me the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

The distinct height cues would tend to be lost, as this mode tends to produce ambience with minimal localization. Try the helicopter attack scene in Apocalypse Now for an example of what I'm trying to illustrate.

I know it well. And so much more fantastic on the recent Blu-ray release! Amazing sound for a fairly old movie. But we digress...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

I believe that my speakers in bipole mode localize the sound, but also tend to widen the soundstage to a degree, which is an advantage in my narrow space that won't handle wide channels,

My room is also too narrow for wide speakers, so it seems we have very similar situations and are hearing very similar things. This is very encouraging for me and the possible biploes I may buy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

but that's probably not what Audyssey had in mind when they set their guidelines for DSX speaker placement. But at this point they work for me and ultimately that's what counts, doesn't it?

The only thing that counts really

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

I chose the AT 1400SRz speaker for several reasons:

The rest of my speakers (excluding subs) are AT's consisting of a pair of FS-3200 LR's and an FS-3200 C across the front, a pair of 2400 SR's (in dipole mode) for the side surrounds, and another pair of 2400 SR's (in bipole mode) for the rear surrounds. I wanted a timbre match, and this was the easiest way to achieve it. Also the matching cosmetics was a big plus for the all-important WAF.

Yes, I agree that this is very important. My problem is that the only speaker from the same manufacturer that will fit the Height requirements (in terms of size and shape) are the diples/bipoles. It seems from your experience, and the fact that we are hearing similar things, plus the fact that our rooms are similar, that I am going to be OK with the dipoles in bipole mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

My local dealer is very accomodating and I've been doing business with him for over two decades. He agreed to take the 1400 SRz's back if I wasn't satisfied with them in a reasonable amount of time. Add that to the fact that I prefer to spend my money locally if at all possible, and you can see that this decision was a no-brainer.

Yes indeed. You have much more choice in the States than we do over here in England. If I had a local dealer who had what I want, I would definitely support him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

I'd be more that happy to discuss this further if you have any other questions/comments

You have been very helpful to me - thanks for taking the time and effort to reply in such detail, which I truly appreciate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

Edited to add: Have you tried the DPLIIx+DSX cinema listening mode and what did you think of it?

I have to admit I haven't. But now that you mention it, I will....

Thanks again for the help.

Kind Regards,

Keith
post #37033 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Hi Keith,

Sure, the M&K SS-150 can be configured as dipoles, monopoles or tripoles. And they certainly fit the "same family" criteria for Wides/Heights, but when DSX hit I managed to purchase another pair of S-150s on eBay. When I do "go" Wide, it will be with spkrs identical to the LCR.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Sure. My problem is that the manufacturer of my other speakers doesn't make a direct radiator that is practical for on-wall height speaker installation here. The bipoles are the only way to go short of going with an entirely different manufacturer (which is my current solution) but for reasons of timbre matching etc I would prefer to go with the same manufacturer all round. I am so delighted with the Height channel results that it's time I gave them better speakers I think.

Spotcheckbilly has led me to thinking that I am going to be OK with the dipoles operating in bipole mode. Indeed, given that my room is narrow, like his, there may even be some benefit in broadening the soundstage a bit with the bipoles, as SB confirms in his room. Chris also replied that I "should be fine". So I think, unless anyone comes along with something very much to the contrary, I will try the bipoles. If the worst comes to the worst and I dislike them, it's easy enough to go back to my current direct radiators and return the bipoles back to the States.

Thanks for the response - appreciated.

Kind Regards,

Keith
post #37034 of 70895
I also note that my DSX Heights create the 'wall of sound' for essentially all material, and are a great addition. I also use the 'center speaker position' (or whatever it's called) feature on my Onk 3008: it 'lifts' the position of the center channel output by sending a small fraction of the center channel output to the Heights. (This is useful because my center speaker is on a stand below my pj sceen, and thus considerably below ear level.)
post #37035 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi Jeff,

Sure. My problem is that the manufacturer of my other speakers doesn’t make a direct radiator that is practical for on-wall height speaker installation here. The bipoles are the only way to go short of going with an entirely different manufacturer (which is my current solution) but for reasons of timbre matching etc I would prefer to go with the same manufacturer all round. I am so delighted with the Height channel results that it's time I gave them better speakers I think.

Spotcheckbilly has led me to thinking that I am going to be OK with the dipoles operating in bipole mode. Indeed, given that my room is narrow, like his, there may even be some benefit in broadening the soundstage a bit with the bipoles, as SB confirms in his room. Chris also replied that I "should be fine". So I think, unless anyone comes along with something very much to the contrary, I will try the bipoles. If the worst comes to the worst and I dislike them, it's easy enough to go back to my current direct radiators and return the bipoles back to the States.

Thanks for the response - appreciated.

DSX has not been around that long, and I doubt that anyone would contradict Chris.

Jeff
post #37036 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

I also note that my DSX Heights create the 'wall of sound' for essentially all material, and are a great addition. I also use the 'center speaker position' (or whatever it's called) feature on my Onk 3008: it 'lifts' the position of the center channel output by sending a small fraction of the center channel output to the Heights. (This is useful because my center speaker is on a stand below my pj sceen, and thus considerably below ear level.)

Never heard of that option for the center speaker, can that be done on the 3007 too? I have the same setup- center channel below the screen...
post #37037 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post
DSX has not been around that long, and I doubt that anyone would contradict Chris.

Jeff
Well I certainly wouldn't dare

Kind Regards,

Keith
post #37038 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
I also note that my DSX Heights create the 'wall of sound' for essentially all material, and are a great addition...
"Wall of sound", created by a genius who crossed the line over to madness.
post #37039 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Sherwood View Post
Never heard of that option for the center speaker, can that be done on the 3007 too? I have the same setup- center channel below the screen...
Hi Al,

No - it was introduced on the x008 series. FWIW, and not for me to challenge millwerwill's findings in any way, Chris said he thought that it was a really bad idea to mix centre channel information with Height channel information - and went to some length to make it clear that this was an Onkyo invention and nothing to do with Audyssey . DSX specifically avoids taking *anything* from the centre channel when it extrapolates the information for the heights in order, IIRC, to preserve the integrity of centre channel information, especially dialogue.

I would have thought that a better way to get the centre channel 'up' a bit would be to run an identical additional centre channel speaker the same distance above the screen as the other one is below it. As the centre channel is mono, this would presumably create an image bang in the centre of the screen. Might have practical difficulties though. Personally, although my centre channel speaker is below the screen (just below it) I find that psycho-acoustics put the dialogue right into the mouths of the actors - presumably because visual information is interpreted by the brain as of a higher order of importance than audio information (just guessing there). It would also depend on the screen size - I don't have a PJ.

Anways, for you and me, it's academic - our x007 series AVRs don't have the capability anyway

Kind Regards,

Keith
post #37040 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post
"Wall of sound", created by a genius who crossed the line over to madness.
Was it, do you think, a result of any difficulties with his Audyssey setup?

Kind Regards,

Keith
post #37041 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
I also use the 'center speaker position' (or whatever it's called) feature on my Onk 3008: it 'lifts' the position of the center channel output by sending a small fraction of the center channel output to the Heights. (This is useful because my center speaker is on a stand below my pj sceen, and thus considerably below ear level.)
Interesting. Does the center width expand some? Seems like it would have to a little given where the Heights normally are. I guess you're saying this feature works better than tilting your center upward.

I'm below the screen also, but my Denon does not have this feature so I do the tilt thing. Can't say dialog seems out of place but then again, I've never put my center speaker in the middle of the screen to see what the difference would be or what I'm missing.

Regards,
John
post #37042 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi Al,

No - it was introduced on the x008 series. FWIW, and not for me to challenge millwerwill's findings in any way, Chris said he thought that it was a really bad idea to mix centre channel information with Height channel information - and went to some length to make it clear that this was an Onkyo invention and nothing to do with Audyssey . DSX specifically avoids taking *anything* from the centre channel when it extrapolates the information for the heights in order, IIRC, to preserve the integrity of centre channel information, especially dialogue.

I would have thought that a better way to get the centre channel 'up' a bit would be to run an identical additional centre channel speaker the same distance above the screen as the other one is below it. As the centre channel is mono, this would presumably create an image bang in the centre of the screen. Might have practical difficulties though. Personally, although my centre channel speaker is below the screen (just below it) I find that psycho-acoustics put the dialogue right into the mouths of the actors - presumably because visual information is interpreted by the brain as of a higher order of importance than audio information (just guessing there). It would also depend on the screen size - I don't have a PJ.

Anways, for you and me, it's academic - our x007 series AVRs don't have the capability anyway

Kind Regards,

Keith

Yes, I'm well aware of Chris' response to my comments about the 'Screen Center Dialog' feature on the 3008 and 5008 (cf. pg 68 of the User Manual). He doesn't think it's a good idea, but I tried it and like it very much. I respect Chris' opinions and appreciate his expertise, but I'm not wedded to following his every recommendation. I use only a setting of '1', the lowest amount of shift (other than '0', i.e., none). My center speaker sits on a bench that is ~16" high, and I do angle it up toward ear level of the MLP; still, I like using the Screen Ctr Dialog as described. You can always try it to see whether or not you like it (provided your AVR has this feature).

Using two center speakers, one below the screen and one above--the first angled up and the latter angled down--would probably do an excellent job, but would be pretty cumbersome.
post #37043 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Yes, I'm well aware of Chris' response to my comments about the 'Screen Center Dialog' feature on the 3008 and 5008 (cf. pg 68 of the User Manual). He doesn't think it's a good idea, but I tried it and like it very much. I respect Chris' opinions and appreciate his expertise, but I'm not wedded to following his every recommendation. I use only a setting of '1', the lowest amount of shift (other than '0', i.e., none). My center speaker sits on a bench that is ~16" high, and I do angle it up toward ear level of the MLP; still, I like using the Screen Ctr Dialog as described. You can always try it to see whether or not you like it (provided your AVR has this feature).

Oh sure. I did say that I wasn't in any way trying to diss your own experience in your own room with your own equipment. If the dialogue is still locked to the centre of the screen in your implementation of the feature, and not sort of 'slightly fuzzy' due to some of it being sent up to the height speakers, then all is good. There are a few of Chris's recommendations that I don't follow too - for reasons of my room and furnishings, doors, windows etc but like you I am delighted with the results I get doing it "my way"

Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Using two center speakers, one below the screen and one above--the first angled up and the latter angled down--would probably do an excellent job, but would be pretty cumbersome.

Yes I agree. If the HT was big enough etc it might be a potential solution - but then if the HT was big enough to accommodate that idea, it would probably be big enough to have an AT screen with the centre speaker bang in the middle behind it.

Kind Regards,

Keith
post #37044 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Yes, I'm well aware of Chris' response to my comments about the 'Screen Center Dialog' feature on the 3008 and 5008 (cf. pg 68 of the User Manual). He doesn't think it's a good idea, but I tried it and like it very much. I respect Chris' opinions and appreciate his expertise, but I'm not wedded to following his every recommendation. I use only a setting of '1', the lowest amount of shift (other than '0', i.e., none). My center speaker sits on a bench that is ~16" high, and I do angle it up toward ear level of the MLP; still, I like using the Screen Ctr Dialog as described. You can always try it to see whether or not you like it (provided your AVR has this feature).

Using two center speakers, one below the screen and one above--the first angled up and the latter angled down--would probably do an excellent job, but would be pretty cumbersome.

There is comb filtering with two center channel speakers .. one above the screen and one below the screen, and that is the concern I believe with one center below and shouldering the CC signal to the two Heights.

Jeff
post #37045 of 70895
I've no need for two center channel speakers, so I'm just going to throw this into the mix -

I remember reading something in the past that warned against using two center channel speakers. Lobing was mentioned, along with the possibility of phase cancellation because the two center channel speakers would be receiving the same signal.

I don't remember too much about it because, as I said, I have no need for two center channel speakers but I'd certainly advise somebody who's interested in this to do some research before taking the plunge.

Cheers,
SB
post #37046 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Using two center speakers, one below the screen and one above--the first angled up and the latter angled down--would probably do an excellent job, but would be pretty cumbersome.

Unless you have the ability to time correct (digital room correction) each speaker individually, that is actually a bad idea. You end up with all kinds of phase issues. In times past, I did use room correction on each of the two speakers individually, and it worked quite well.

If your setup is such that (a) the exact angle and (b) the distance to the MLP (ears of listener) of both speakers were identical, then it might work.
post #37047 of 70895
There's an AES Convention Paper 6614 "PHANTOM AUDIO SOURCES WITH
VERTICALLY SEPERATED SPEAKERS" by Shiva Sundaram and Chris Kyriakakis:

"ABSTRACT
Multichannel auditory displays and Immersive Audio Systems are frequently integrated with video displays. Often, in these applications, the video display placement makes it difficult to place the centre speaker in front of the listener. A solution to this problem is to create a phantom centre channel in front of the listener using speakers placed elsewhere. Conventionally, phantom sources can be created by amplitude panned techniques in the horizontal plane. However, since it is practical and aesthetic to have speakers above or below the video display, in this paper, we propose a technique to create a centre phantom at 0o elevation and 0o azimuth to the listener using two vertically separated speakers placed above and below the horizontal plane at 0o azimuth. The phantom centre is created using inverse filtering techniques. This technique can also be extended to create phantom sources in the median plane."
post #37048 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

There is comb filtering with two center channel speakers .. one above the screen and one below the screen, and that is the concern I believe with one center below and shouldering the CC signal to the two Heights.

Jeff

Ah yes - thanks Jeff. I'd forgotten about comb filtering.

Kind Regards,

Keith
post #37049 of 70895
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

I've no need for two center channel speakers, so I'm just going to throw this into the mix -

I remember reading something in the past that warned against using two center channel speakers. Lobing was mentioned, along with the possibility of phase cancellation because the two center channel speakers would be receiving the same signal.

I don't remember too much about it because, as I said, I have no need for two center channel speakers but I'd certainly advise somebody who's interested in this to do some research before taking the plunge.

Cheers,
SB

Hi SB - yeah, Jeff has put his finger on it, as usual (!) - the dreaded comb filtering issue. I'd forgotten all about that.

But then, markus quotes from a paper by Chris K that seems to imply it can be done. Thankfully, like you, I don't have this problem so, for once, things here are straightforward.

Kind Regards,

Keith
post #37050 of 70895
But the quoted abstract states: "The phantom centre is created using inverse filtering techniques." Wouldn't that imply that in the form that Chris contributed to, [room] correction was used to avoid the comb and lobe issues* being discussed? Also, we take it on faith that the subject of the paper is treated as preferred or acceptable, it could be that the results were spectacularly "meh". So, if the AVR folks did that it would be OK, but it Audyssey did not think it was appropriate or write the filter.

v/r,
C-F


* (Not an expert, assuming lobing means something like signal strength in antennas and combing is the phase cancellation, i.e. they are not the same thing...)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)