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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1600

post #47971 of 70896
As much as I find it entertaining, I have to agree.
post #47972 of 70896
It would be nice to get back on the topic of audyssey and it's implementation.
post #47973 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I said "What does this have to do with Audyssey?" what seems like ages ago irt this OT endless oneupsmanship and sniping back and forth. J_Palmer_Cass, markus767, etc., please link to whatever thread you take this discussion to (mebbe even start one) so those interested can follow.


I initially made a large batch of popcorn and settled in to catch this "exchange" of posts with the hope that it could get interesting.

Unfortunately it's become stale, and so has my popcorn

Cheers,
SB
post #47974 of 70896
posts deleted

in the future, please use the ignore feature, without announcing it

if you continue to respond to and quote problematic posts, you are adding to the problem
post #47975 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertjan View Post

J_Palmer_Cass & those engaging in the discussion with him - Might i kindly request you take this discussion to a separate thread? This thread is about Audyssey, and it's getting tiresome to have to wade through pages of discussion about stuff not really related to Audyssey. Thanks!

Yes, you are quite right. It started out as being potentially interesting but it's become repetitively, pointlessly boring now. Anyone coming here for Audyssey help will look at the last few pages and think he's in the wrong thread! Time to can it guys, or move it to PM or start a thread for it IMO.
post #47976 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

He alludes to some unintended bass here -

Not sure how this relates to my post. Care to elaborate?
post #47977 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Browninggold View Post

I have a "110 sound screen. My 3 Tower speakers are behind the screen. It is electric and I also have a "50 plasma ceiling mounted and use that for tv viewing. I use the projector/screen for blurays and sports. When running Audyssey with my A100 should I have the screen up or down or does it not matter? Screen is perforated. I did have screen down the last time I ran Audyssey.

Hi - your post seems to have become submerged in a few pages of OT discussion I'm afraid. The general rule of thumb is that the room should be in the same state when running Audyssey measurements as it will be in when listening to the system after Audyssey calibration. If your speakers are behind a screen, then Audyssey should be run with the screen down. Of course, if you also use the room with the screen UP for TV on the plasma, then this creates a dilemma as you can't have it both ways. I'd run Audyssey in the room configuration that is most critical for you - if using the PJ and screen is the most important, then run Audyssey with the screen down.
post #47978 of 70896
Thanks kbarnes701. Didn't know for sure if Audyssey settings would be compromised or not with screen down. That's the way I did run Audyssey just wanted to double check with fellow forum members. Thanks again.
post #47979 of 70896
Gary J,

I just wanted to point out that I think you're misreading FilmMixer's post if you read it as referring to "unintended bass".

I believe what FM meant was that even TV shows can have stellar soundtracks when the sound engineer is given the opportunity to do their best. As far as the comment about "LF leakage" goes, he was merely commenting on how much LFE was being mixed into the 2 soundtracks (of the TV show he was working on as well as G.I. Joe which was being mixed in the opposite room, separated by the hallway). He merely meant that even though the soundstages are built for sound isolation, there is still some LF that leaks outside the mixing room and it amused him how much the LFE in both soundtracks would shake the walls in the hallway between the 2 rooms.


Max
post #47980 of 70896
Quote:
I have chosen to purchase 4 new surround speakers. So given what I am understanding, I can put one pair where my existing rears are and your recommendation would be to put the other pair at or slightly forward of my LP, maybe at 80 deg?

Yes.

Quote:
If I do this, do I use DSX for the slightly forward sides or DTS:Neo X/PLIIx.

Neo:X or PLIIx. No harm in trying DSX but it will shock you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DSX is wides/heights; if he does that, what happens to the side surround channels?
post #47981 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

For War of the Worlds, yes the dialnorm value is -23. My receiver and my PC report the same DN value.

Very odd.

Quote:


I read those levels off the mixer in my PC. PofC uses a different Slevel value that most other DVD's, so perhaps that is just a meta data report of encode information.

Those C and Sur gain settings only apply to internal DD decoder downmixing to stereo. They have no bearing on the 5.1 playback.
post #47982 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Noah, what do these two posts have in common?

Jeff

That's just one post of Roger's which contains a couple of quotes.

Unfortunately the quote function leaves them out, so I cut and pasted.
post #47983 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Here is a waterfall of Master and Commander DVD Opening Salvo sequence.

Do you see much infra on the LFE channel? The bottom line is Master and Commander rolls off from 30 Hz on down like a lot of other movies do.

Yes, the BD version indeed has a HP filter as you observed. However, the DVD does not.

I grabbed a short spectrum snapshot at the same point from both discs (LFE channel), and then tried building a filter in REW to achieve the same rolloff as the BD.



Here is a detailed account of how the cannon were recorded.
post #47984 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Without a doubt there is content below 20Hz. The question is if it's there intentionally.

I'm not so sure about it. To my knowledge dubbing stages don't use bass management, so low frequency content ends up in the mains which probably don't go down below 20Hz. As a result the mixer never hears any of that content. Nevertheless that content ends up on the recording and in the consumer's sub.

Maybe FilmMixer could add information how this issue is handled at Todd-AO.

There is no bass management used on the stages when mixing films..

We do, however, add LF extension subs on the main channels... usually 2 18" Bag End subwoofers with no filters.. they go flat well into the teens...

If a film is mixed on a "smaller" stage, or a facility that hasn't spent the kind of money for such a setup, their room is still certified to dub in if it matches the x-curve (along with other requirements outside of frequency response.)
post #47985 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

He alludes to some unintended bass here -

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Not sure how this relates to my post. Care to elaborate?

Gary.. you need to re-read the post you were referencing.

I wasn't talking about anything related to content in the tracks.
post #47986 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Neo:X or PLIIx. No harm in trying DSX but it will shock you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DSX is wides/heights; if he does that, what happens to the side surround channels?

If he uses DSX wide processing to feed speakers at 80 deg, then the L/R effects will be much wider than the already exaggerated result achieved at the recommended 60 deg positions.
post #47987 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

We do, however, add LF extension subs on the main channels...

L, R, C or just L and R?
post #47988 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

l, r, c or just l and r?

L C R... why would we not do the center since it carries a great majority of LF content?
post #47989 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

L C R... why would we not do the center since it carries a great majority of LF content?

You're the Boss FM!! Meanwhile, isn't this another good reason to use Bass Management on our HTs? A typical Center speaker wouldn't be able to do LF anyhow? But if even the Center channel of the mix carries it, it's got it's path all the way down to the sub!
post #47990 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

L C R... why would we not do the center since it carries a great majority of LF content?

No hidden agenda, just to confirm.

Are there any discussions about moving to bass managed mixing?
post #47991 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Yes, the BD version indeed has a HP filter as you observed. However, the DVD does not.

I grabbed a short spectrum snapshot at the same point from both discs (LFE channel), and then tried building a filter in REW to achieve the same rolloff as the BD.





Just to be clear, my charts were taken from the DD track of the M&C DVD. Looks to be about the same rolloff as your chart of the the DTS version.

My basic point was that a large number of audio tracks have peak low frequency energy in the 30 hz area. M&C is about 15 dB down at 15 hz, so that shows a ballpark 2nd order roll off. That does does not mean a HP filter was applied to the source material. It is just an observation of peak energy.

As you have shown, the Bluray looks to be HP filtered for sure. 20 Hz content is way down, and the 30 Hz is down quite a bit also. That is LFE alone with no RB if I read your chart right.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post


Here is a detailed account of how the cannon were recorded.


A little more trivia. Information of the cannon's that were used for M&C source material.

http://www.museumandcollector.com/in...d=48&Itemid=57
LL
post #47992 of 70896
I thought the idea was to get back on the topic of Audyssey?
post #47993 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Very odd.


Yup, WotW's dialnorm value of -23 is the most reduction (8 dB) that I have found on any DVD.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Very odd.

Those C and Sur gain settings only apply to internal DD decoder downmixing to stereo. They have no bearing on the 5.1 playback.


Marcus clued me in on that a bit earlier. I should have tried a Google search before I asked the question.
post #47994 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Just to be clear, my charts were taken from the DD track of the M&C DVD. Looks to be about the same rolloff as your chart of the the DTS version.

My basic point was that a large number of audio tracks have peak low frequency energy in the 30 hz area. M&C is about 15 dB down at 15 hz, so that shows a ballpark 2nd order roll off. That does does not mean a HP filter was applied to the source material. It is just an observation of peak energy.

Point taken. Yes, there is nothing we can do about the spectrum of natural sounds. But when it comes to action movies, how much of what populates LFE is natural?

Regardless of the origin or the spectrum of the source elements, our mission is to reproduce them accurately, and that means no further rolloff in the passband of interest imposed by the playback chain.

Quote:


As you have shown, the Bluray looks to be HP filtered for sure. 20 Hz content is way down, and the 30 Hz is down quite a bit also. That is LFE alone with no RB if I read your chart right.

Yes, LFE alone. Not sure what RB is.
post #47995 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

I thought the idea was to get back on the topic of Audyssey?



OK, how much extra boost does Audyssey give in the infra range with the Audyssey EQ turned on?
post #47996 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Point taken. Yes, there is nothing we can do about the spectrum of natural sounds. But when it comes to action movies, how much of what populates LFE is natural?

Regardless of the origin or the spectrum of the source elements, our mission is to reproduce them accurately, and that means no further rolloff in the passband of interest imposed by the playback chain.


As Film Mixer says, he mixes on a system where the mains are good into the teens. Some movies can show high energy levels on the main channels down to near DC along with little LFE energy below 20 Hz on the LFE channel. So there is roll off in the signal chain in the mixing studio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

There is no bass management used on the stages when mixing films..

We do, however, add LF extension subs on the main channels... usually 2 18" Bag End subwoofers with no filters.. they go flat well into the teens...

If a film is mixed on a "smaller" stage, or a facility that hasn't spent the kind of money for such a setup, their room is still certified to dub in if it matches the x-curve (along with other requirements outside of frequency response.)





Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Yes, LFE alone. Not sure what RB is.

Redirected Bass. Just trying to be clear. Sorry to abbreviate it that way, but some people call the subwoofer output LFE.
post #47997 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

OK, how much extra boost does Audyssey give in the infra range with the Audyssey EQ turned on?

That is an impossible question to answer, other than to say that Audyssey attempts to provide a flat curve, so it will boost lower frequencies to try and achieve that - within it's capabilities of course.
post #47998 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

That is an impossible question to answer, other than to say that Audyssey attempts to provide a flat curve, so it will boost lower frequencies to try and achieve that - within it's capabilities of course.


Yes, within Audyssey's capabilities. How about within the subwoofer's output capabilities (SPL / frequency)? You need to build in extra bass capabilty to make sure that you run the subwoofer within it's SPL limits by frequency when you get that Audyssey infra boost.

Yes there are some movies that go crazy low at higher levels when LFE and redirected bass are mixed together.
post #47999 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Yes, within Audyssey's capabilities. How about within the subwoofer's output capabilities (SPL / frequency)?

Yes there are some movies that go crazy low at higher levels when LFE and redirected bass are mixed together.

The calibration works out the frequency at which the volume level is at -3dB, after applying its capabilites. So the end result is based on the capabilities of both combined. It's quite simple really.
post #48000 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

The calibration works out the frequency at which the volume level is at -3dB, after applying its capabilites. So the end result is based on the capabilities of both combined. It's quite simple really.



Does Audyssey figure out SPL capabiliities of subwoofers? I don't thing so. Flat to 5 Hz at 120 dB SPL is not the same as flat to 5 Hz at 100 dB.

That's one of the reasons a lot of subwoofer systems look to be way overkill. Even an extra 6 dB of infra boost represents a lot of extra capability.
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