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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1626

post #48751 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakeroux View Post

^^^^

Is this your first pass, or has it done this on multiple tries? If this is first pass, I'd just try running it again. I assume you are keeping the room conditions quiet while calibrating, correct?

Ok yea, you were true about trying again. I tried again, and it worked.
Finally all the 6 points have been auto-calibrated, but i am not very happy with the sound.
The Subwoofer amp has six knobs, Phase is sent to 0, Frequency is set to 200 (is max), Gain was set to 6 out of 10 being the max... i set it to 6.
On the EQ part on the amp Freq is set to 0, bandwith 0, and level set to 0.

When i started the Audyssey setup, in the very beginning itself, audyssey asked me to turn down the subwoofer gain to -75db. Initially i had set it to 12 o clock position (six out of 10).
But with the -75db it reduced to 1.5 out of ten.

After the calibration, here are the results on screen, (just clicked some pictures of the phone).

Results of Speaker Config Check




Distance Check




Ch. Level Check




Crossover Check




Not sure why Audyssey asked me to turn the level down for the sub to - 75, which is 1.5 on the gain in my amp out of 10. Hence no Bass is heard at all after calibration.
There is no bass at all with this auto calibration.
I have to turn up the volume upto - 11.0 db for normal hearing. Which looks like 75% of the total volume to hear audible sound.

Please help.
post #48752 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

What happens when the source is multichannel content and not just 2 channels?

I forgot to say that THX Music doesn't do upmixing.
But it can use upmixed content from DPLIIx, Neural etc.
So if you have 2 channel content, you are using DPLIIx+THX Music as an example...
I haven't checked what processing THX Music adds but I
would assume it has less processing than THX Cinema.
post #48753 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

I forgot to say that THX Music doesn't do upmixing.

Unfortunately it does upmix because I can't select any THX listening mode without selecting an upmix algorithm at the same time. In other words there's no option for "Stereo THX music".
post #48754 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

When i started the setup, in the very beginning itself, audyssey asked me to turn down the subwoofer gain to -75db. Initially i had set it to 12 o clock position (five out of 10).

MultEQ doesn't ask you to "turn down the subwoofer gain to -75db". You need to adjust the gain on your subwoofer so the test signal at the beginning reads 75dB SPL at the main listening position.

By the way, set the gain for the PEQ to 0.
post #48755 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Unfortunately it does upmix because I can't select any THX listening mode without selecting an upmix algorithm at the same time. In other words there's no option for "Stereo THX music".

Yes.
post #48756 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

MultEQ doesn't ask you to "turn down the subwoofer gain to -75db". You need to adjust the gain on your subwoofer so the test signal at the beginning reads 75dB SPL at the main listening position.

By the way, set the gain for the PEQ to 0.

I am getting a little confused here mate, pls correct me if i am wrong, but when you mean that i need to adjust the gain on the subwoofer so the test signal at the beginning reads 75dB SPL, I will have to turn the gain down on the amp, right?? I have an external amp which powers my THT subwoofer. If i adjust the gain to 75dB for the test signal i will have to turn down the gain on the amp, and after which do i turn it back up???
When i tried to turn the gain back up to the previous state, the bass was over bloated and muddy, infact it was cranking up the sound.
post #48757 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

Yes.

Yes, there is an option or yes, no?
post #48758 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

I am getting a little confused here mate, pls correct me if i am wrong, but when you mean that i need to adjust the gain on the subwoofer so the test signal at the beginning reads 75dB SPL, I will have to turn the gain down on the amp, right?? I have an external amp which powers my THT subwoofer. If i adjust the gain to 75dB for the test signal i will have to turn down the gain on the amp, and after which do i turn it back up???

I can only describe the procedure for Onkyo. The AVR plays a test signal through the subwoofer. The mic (which you place at the main listening position right at the center where your head would be, at ear height) reads that signal and displays the measured SPL on screen. You need to adjust the gain on your subwoofer so the screen displays 75dB. Then proceed to the next step and don't touch your sub's gain setting ever again.

Make sure the subwoofer is active in "Channel Select".
post #48759 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

I can only describe the procedure for Onkyo. The AVR plays a test signal through the subwoofer. The mic (which you place at the main listening position right at the center where your head would be, at ear height) reads that signal and displays the measured SPL on screen. You need to adjust the gain on your subwoofer so the screen displays 75dB. Then proceed to the next step and don't touch your sub's gain setting ever again.

Make sure the subwoofer is active in "Channel Select".

That is the problem, thats what i was saying earlier, that when i turn the gain down on the amp to 75, it reduces the subwoofer's bass to 1.5 (out of 10 being the max).
No bass at all.
post #48760 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

That is the problem, thats what i was saying earlier, that when i turn the gain down on the amp to 75, it reduces the subwoofer's bass to 1.5 (out of 10 being the max).
No bass at all.

When you adjust the gain to 75dB then you don't hear the test signal anymore?
post #48761 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post


When you adjust the gain to 75dB then you don't hear the test signal anymore?

I do hear the test signal. But adjusting the gain to 75 db reduces the bass way way below.
post #48762 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

I do hear the test signal. But adjusting the gain to 75 db reduces the bass way way below.

Enable Dynamic EQ. If bass is still lacking at certain frequencies try a different location for the sub and run MultEQ again.
post #48763 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Yes, there is an option or yes, no?

Yes to that there is no option for ""Stereo THX music" AFAIK.
post #48764 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReneV View Post

For my money, Chris' argument has remained the same throughout: preference is fine; all we [Audyssey] are saying is to try to implement it on top of reference to guarantee things like reproducibility, transparency of the specifics of the end result, etc.

True, as far as it goes. But where have you seen Audyssey explain that DSX is their way of re-imagining the soundfield to suit their preference? On the contrary, the DSX story says:

>>Research has shown that accurate spatial sound rendering requires more information than what 5.1 surround sound systems provide. Audyssey DSX delivers this additional information from the required directions to overcome the limitations faced by 5.1 surround sound systems.

Research into imaging...
Research in human hearing shows...
Experiments have shown...
<<

Reading this, one would not be faulted for thinking DSX improves accuracy, when in reality it warps the original soundfield, most obviously if we are talking about movie soundtracks, but it also applies to music. We expect advertising blurb to exhibit hyperbole. But this is AVS Forum, n'est pas? It is fair game for us to discuss such matters here so that when keen listeners like Keith scratch their heads wondering why something does not sound quite right, rather than deferring to Audyssey’s implications of improved spatial accuracy based on extensive research, they will know that it is just Audyssey's idea of a cool way to enhance the presentation in exchange for departing from the original “reference” intent.

BTW, I happen to agree with the premise: Research has shown that accurate spatial sound rendering requires more information than what 5.1 surround sound systems provide.

Quote:


I must say I find the continued us-vs-them narrative absurd.

Who is us and who is them, and what are they sparring over?
post #48765 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

That is the problem, thats what i was saying earlier, that when i turn the gain down on the amp to 75, it reduces the subwoofer's bass to 1.5 (out of 10 being the max).
No bass at all.

That has been my experience with MultEQ XT. Turns the sub down too much. No problem, when it's done, I set it to where it sounds right to me.
post #48766 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReneV View Post

Most assuredly not. If you are referring to Audyssey selling a product with preference-capabilities along with their core reference technologies, I must say I find the continued us-vs-them narrative absurd. First, Audyssey could very well be first and foremost a profit-making entity. Secondly, it could be an extension of, say, either Chris' personal listening interests or his scientific research interests.

For my money, Chris' argument has remained the same throughout: preference is fine; all we [Audyssey] are saying is to try to implement it on top of reference to guarantee things like reproducibility, transparency of the specifics of the end result, etc.

No matter how I look at this, other than in terms of us-vs-them, I fail to see any irony in any shape or form.

Audyssey MultEQ is designed to get us as close to 'reference' (what the mixer heard) as possible isn't it? Yet with DSX they deliberately move away from reference by deliberately changing the intended effect of the surround channels. There is a certain irony in that, but it's no big deal. But anyone using DSX should be aware that they have immediately entered preference land, that's all. Nothing wrong with that of course, as Chris has always said, as you say.
post #48767 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

The other thing I find odd about this besides the rehashing is that with all this discussion we don't even know exactly what the OP's gear is (for ex., on Onkyos max trim is actually +/-15 not 12 which would make all this moot) and whether he has preouts (if not, line level attenuators are useless).

Only for the sub channel. It's -12dB for the others.
post #48768 of 70896
Hey guys thanks for all the help. My reciever is an Integra 70.2 and I was reading the manual last night. It seems it has a function for each input called intelli volume. This lets you adjust the volume for each input. I can raise or cut each input by 12db. So if I balance the mains with the trims using as much trim as possible and use a test dvd to cut my input to achieve 0 on MV, is this where I want to be.
post #48769 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

That has been my experience with MultEQ XT. Turns the sub down too much.

Even when listening at reference level?
post #48770 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

I am getting a little confused here mate, pls correct me if i am wrong, but when you mean that i need to adjust the gain on the subwoofer so the test signal at the beginning reads 75dB SPL, I will have to turn the gain down on the amp, right?? I have an external amp which powers my THT subwoofer. If i adjust the gain to 75dB for the test signal i will have to turn down the gain on the amp, and after which do i turn it back up???
When i tried to turn the gain back up to the previous state, the bass was over bloated and muddy, infact it was cranking up the sound.

Don't touch the gain after running Audyssey. You just need to set the SPL to 75dB (not minus 75dB which you said before) on the screen. To set it to 75dB adjust the sub gain control until it is reading 75dB. If you were setting it to -75dB before it's no wonder you got no bass
post #48771 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by holyindian View Post

That is the problem, thats what i was saying earlier, that when i turn the gain down on the amp to 75, it reduces the subwoofer's bass to 1.5 (out of 10 being the max).
No bass at all.

How do you mean "when you turn down the gain on the amp to 75dB"? The 75dB figure you are looking for is on your screen - it's the first step of the Audyssey measurements.

How can you have an amp for your sub (which I assume is therefore a passive sub) and also have a gain control on the sub itself (which would make it an active sub)? Just do exactly what Markus suggested earlier and you will be good to go.
post #48772 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I happen to agree with the premise: Research has shown that accurate spatial sound rendering requires more information than what 5.1 surround sound systems provide.

So what's the problem wih DSX? Not the right amount and location of speakers or not the right kind of content (or upmixing)?
post #48773 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Only for the sub channel. It's -12dB for the others.

In a previous post the OP wrote he has an "Intergated 70.2". I read that as Integra 70.2 which has +/-12 dB trim for satellites and -15 to +12 dB for the sub(s).

From the Manual of the Integra 70.2 (page 56):

Level Calibration
Here you can adjust the level of each speaker with the
built-in test tone so that the volume of each speaker is the
same at the listening position.



Left, Front Wide Left, Front High Left, Center*1,
Front High Right, Front Wide Right, Right,
Surround Right, Surround Back Right,
Surround Back Left, Surround Left


-12.0dB to 0.0dB to +12.0dB in 0.5 dB step.


Subwoofer 1*1, Subwoofer 2*1*2
-15.0dB to 0.0dB to +12.0dB in 0.5 dB step.

post #48774 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Don't touch the gain after running Audyssey. You just need to set the SPL to 75dB (not minus 75dB which you said before) on the screen. To set it to 75dB adjust the sub gain control until it is reading 75dB. If you were setting it to -75dB before it's no wonder you got no bass

Are you saying the OP should adjust the gain control on the subwoofer or adjust the subwoofer trim control in the AVR?
post #48775 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

Are you saying the OP should adjust the gain control on the subwoofer or adjust the subwoofer trim control in the AVR?

On the sub amp. Trims are set by MultEQ and don't have an effect on the test signal level (at least in a well designed AVR).
post #48776 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Reading this, one would not be faulted for thinking DSX improves accuracy, when in reality it warps the original soundfield, most obviously if we are talking about movie soundtracks, but it also applies to music. We expect advertising blurb to exhibit hyperbole. But this is AVS Forum, n'est pas? It is fair game for us to discuss such matters here so that when keen listeners like Keith scratch their heads wondering why something does not sound quite right, rather than deferring to Audyssey's implications of improved spatial accuracy based on extensive research, they will know that it is just Audyssey's idea of a cool way to enhance the presentation in exchange for departing from the original reference intent.

Roger, that is *exactly* it, in my case at least. I took Audyssey's description of how DSX works to mean that if I used it I would get a more accurate sound. At first I did indeed enjoy the more exciting sound that DSX Height channels gave me - but I could never quite get away from the niggling feeling that, as you say, "something was not quite right". I could never put my finger on it until you mentioned to me that the surrounds were not behaving as they behaved before, prior to DSX being used. I did some listening, some simple tests (by isolating the surround channels and switching in and out of DSX mode) and suddenly it all clicked into place. The "something wrong" was what was happening to my surrounds, which now sounded much quieter and also as though the content was slightly 'different' in some way too. I could not therefore simply increase the levels of the surround channels by a few dB to compensate - something else was happening too. I then decided not to use DSX Height mode any more, but didn't especially enjoy sitting looking at two Height speakers that were now doing nothing. This led me to experiment with PLIIz and I personally find this much better: it gives a nice 'height effect' (even if it is not what the mixer or director perhaps intended, so I fully admit to joining the preference club here) but it also didn't mess up my surrounds.

The reason I have banged on about this so much when the opportunity has arise in discussion, is precisely for the reason you say: the DSX marketing information has a tendency to mislead by giving the false impression that engaging DSX gives a more accurate reproduction when it does not. It may give a very satisfactory result for some people, or a very exciting result for some people, but because of what it does to the surround channels, it most definitely does NOT give a more faithful representation of what the director/mixer intended.

And that is what I think Jeff meant by 'irony' although it was a light-hearted remark and there isn't much point in making a big deal of what he said IMO.
post #48777 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by chambers1517 View Post

Hey guys thanks for all the help. My reciever is an Integra 70.2 and I was reading the manual last night. It seems it has a function for each input called intelli volume. This lets you adjust the volume for each input. I can raise or cut each input by 12db. So if I balance the mains with the trims using as much trim as possible and use a test dvd to cut my input to achieve 0 on MV, is this where I want to be.

Are you trying to get the trims to read 0dB? That isn't necessary. The idea is to get each speaker delivering reference dB when the MV is reading 0dB.

Intellivolume might be the solution though (never used it). If you turn down the level on every input by the same amount, you will effectively reduce the input signal and that should let Audyssey set trims that are higher than -12dB. That is all you need you know - trims above the -12dB mark so that you know Audyssey didn't want to go even lower. Even -11dB will do.

EDIT: Ignore the paragraph in italics above. See Feri's post below.
post #48778 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

So what's the problem wih DSX? Not the right amount and location of speakers or not the right kind of content (or upmixing)?

The problem for me was simply that the surrounds no longer sounded right, or even very audible sometimes. The presentation became very 'front-heavy' which gives rise to the often seen remark "a wall of sound". I liked what DSX did - but not at the expense of messing with the surrounds. And it is important to recognise that as soon as one pushes the DSX button, one has entered Preference Land.
post #48779 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

In a previous post the OP wrote he has an "Intergated 70.2". I read that as Integra 70.2 which has +/-12 dB trim for satellites and -15 to +12 dB for the sub(s).

From the Manual of the Integra 70.2 (page 56):

Er, yes, isn’t that what I said, Feri?
post #48780 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

Are you saying the OP should adjust the gain control on the subwoofer or adjust the subwoofer trim control in the AVR?

When running Audyssey and the first screen asks you to set the sub level to 75dB, it has to be set on the sub itself. You can't access the trims at that stage for obvious reasons.
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