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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1680

post #50371 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post


actually his 1609 model works a bit differently.

there are two red/green lights:

1) the MultEQ light is green when Audyssey is on "default" settings, and red if you have changed something (this became the box / no box thing on later models)

2) the Dyn EQ/Vol light is green when both Dyn EQ+Vol are on, and red when only Dyn EQ is on (and Dyn Vol is off)

@ Luisfc -- this is discussed on pg 33-34 of your manual. The light changing from green to red is just letting you know that you changed something away from the way it was set after running Audyssey. Nothing to worry about

Blimey. I'm glad the Onkyos just have the words Audyssey and DynEq light up on the front. I can never remember these combinations of lights.
post #50372 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisfc1972 View Post


i respectfully and sincerely apologize to you mr. high and mighty.

i did not read the 1680 pages and 50381 posts of this thread. you see, i came home from work tired. i hope you can forgive me for not reading the last few posts before mine. again, i am sorry, mr. perfect.

The point is, this question has been raised here a thousand times and the answer is always the same. Even the most rudimentary of searches would have found it. So there's no need to be disrespectful to someone who took the time to answer you. I guess people won't be so keen to help you in the future. If you lower the set XO you get an uncorrected hole in the frequency response. Audyssey corrects down to the -3dB of the speaker/room.
post #50373 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

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My "problematic" front L/R speakers are humongous Sound Lab electrostatic panels (3 feet wide and 8 feet tall) which are indeed very/very inefficient needing an absolute minimum of 100 watts per channel; The input gain set by Audyssey had to be maxed at +12dB and that brought their output to barely 70dB.
I tried using the XLR connections instead of RCA connections of my Integra DHC-80.2 (11 volts output versus 5.5 volts) and ran them directly to the XLR inputs of my front L/R amplifier, but that did not raise the gain of the amp/speakers in any measured way, the output of the speakers stayed the same at 70dB.
Since my front L/R speakers are incapable of producing the recommended 75dB level i figure i should use that baseline number of 70dB output and lower the input trim gain for all other speakers in my system to match that same level; I noticed afterwards that my system finally sounded like it should after being equalized by Audyssey, with much/much better balance between front/rear/center channels.
The trims set by Audyssey MultEQ XT32 for all other speakers were fine, all centered around - 5dB to + 2.5 dB on a scale of - 12dB to + 12dB with all speakers reaching 75dB with plenty of spare gain available for proper calibration, but all had to be lowered by about 5dB.
So, apparently due to my "especial" circumstance, the maximum sound pressure level that can be achieved in my HT room is to be no higher than 100dB (NOT that THX figure of 105dB) after using calibration by Audyssey MultEQ XT32 AND properly setting input gain and output level for all channels. Not that i am planning listening to music or watching a movie at such high levels, but why is it up to Audyssey to control that exclusively and not we, the users ? What if anyone's HT system is capable of outputting distortionless sound at 107/110 dB level and yet its main A/V processor precludes him from doing so ? Hmm...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marcos


On a Denon, you could now go into the inputs and raise each by 5 dB, offsetting the diffference required because of the trim limits on your L&R, then everything will be back to 'normal' as I alluded in my first response to you. I assume there is a similar adjustment avilable on the onkyo/integra products, i just don't know what it's called or where it resides in the menus.
post #50374 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Do you have any proof of this? I thought the Audyssey algorithm limited overall boost to compensate for boost of any one frequency.

here is the HD graph that depicts Audyssey trying to boost the null..


check out the 5% distortion at 55hz..bingo..the null, and my subs are unreal !!! Quad Tumult with quad QSC1450's You cant leave it up to Audyssey, its great , but the subs should be somewhat flat before you hand it over to Audyssey. this is what spawned my project to eleiminate the null with multiple sub placement.
post #50375 of 70896
Which line represents the sub before Audyssey? Which after? Measured how, from what positions and what smoothing?
post #50376 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Which line represents the sub before Audyssey? Which after? Measured how, from what positions and what smoothing?

Top line original, OmniMic, seating position...smoothing probably 6db

here is a pic of the main sub with the multi sub next to the LP filling in the null, the null is at 55hz as shown. see how it fills in. I'm in the middle of this whole build, but one day soon this will all be documented much better
post #50377 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Top line original

So the top line is pretty much consistently higher in dB. So how is this saying "you can over drive your sub with Audyssey attempting to fix a null"?
post #50378 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Top line original, OmniMic, seating position...smoothing probably 6db

here is a pic of the main sub with the multi sub next to the LP filling in the null, the null is at 55hz as shown. see how it fills in. I'm in the middle of this whole build, but one day soon this will all be documented much better

I don't see anything that looks like a null. Nulls are sharp and deep. That's not to say that the response didn't dip and a multisub configuration didn't make it smoother.

Jeff
post #50379 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

So the top line is pretty much consistently higher in dB. So how is this saying "you can over drive your sub with Audyssey attempting to fix a null"?

Audyssey will try to boost the null. The null is in the one graph. The HD graph shows the hump, an attempt to correct. The XO is set to 80hz, reason the graph looks suspect...Does this help, it really adds up.
Explains the hump in a close mic sweep at 55hz. Audyssey's boost in that region shows quite clearly....hence over driving at 55hz to fill it in.....
post #50380 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Audyssey will try to boost the null. The null is in the one graph. The HD graph shows the hump, an attempt to correct. The XO is set to 80hz, reason the graph looks suspect...Does this help, it really adds up

No I don't see where it adds up to where "you can over drive your sub with Audyssey". Not even close.
post #50381 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

No I don't see where it adds up to where "you can over drive your sub with Audyssey". Not even close.

Audyssey is attempting to fill this void by boosting the region of 55hz where the response dips. The dip is documented, the hump in the 55hz region is documented, the result is in the HD graph. Next step is a new HD graph with the null filled in prior to running Audyssey with the Aux subs filling in the null.

The other question is about the null, it doesnt look that deep because of the short window 20hz-100hz, and smoothing..

Over driving occurs when it boosts to flatten, unless you can prove Audyssey doesnt boost and uses another method to flatten the response. My 55hz region is at least 17db higher at its center....


Would it be simpler to understand this by saying there is distortion caused by the boost at 55hz, which will turn into an over driven driver if volume is increased ?
post #50382 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Over driving occurs when it boosts to flatten, unless you can prove Audyssey doesnt boost and uses another method to flatten the response. My 55hz region is at least 17db higher at its center....

Audyssey's boost is limited to +9dB so if the dip is greater than that and the response is now flat at that frequency it is not because of Audyssey.



Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The filter boost/cut limits are set by MultEQ and they are +9 dB/-20 dB. These are used to tame the peaks and dips in the response based on the measurements.
post #50383 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Audyssey's boost is limited to +9dB so if the dip is greater than that and the response is now flat at that frequency it is not because of Audyssey.

So, boosting +9db wont cause distortion at 55hz as measured, btw they measure flat at close mic

What if my sub had a 8" driver......
post #50384 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

So, boosting +9db wont cause distortion at 55hz as measured, btw they measure flat at close mic

Correct, not from Audyssey. How can Audyssey cause distortion at 55hz by boosting it to or closer to flat? Perhaps a defective sub at that frequency, inherent distortion in whatever signal or defective measurement equipment or technique. In any case you have certainly not shown "you can over drive your sub with Audyssey".
post #50385 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Correct, not from Audyssey. How can Audyssey cause distortion at 55hz by boosting it to or closer to flat? Perhaps a defective sub at that frequency, inherent distortion in whatever signal or defective measurement equipment or technique. In any case you have certainly not shown "you can over drive your sub with Audyssey".

No, i showed it , classic forum banter, you dont see it, fine here we go again...for Pete's sake

Sub measures flat close mic. Sub measures null at LP. Audyssey creates a flat response at LP. HD measures distortion at 55hz. Sub shows a hump at 55hz after running Audyssey close mic. This seems pretty easy to figure out, my sub is now running hot at 55hz due to the correction, AT THE SUB DRIVER not the listening position, it measures flat there due to the correction. I cant be any clearer than that, simple.

Running hot at the driver is key at 55hz..... So where oh where did that mystery 5% HD come from, it wasnt there before....hmmmmm

My subs will not over extend at 55hz, but what if i had a sub with a 8" driver......my subs show about 5% HD at 55hz....just because you dont see it doesnt mean it isnt there LOL
post #50386 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post


Sub measures flat close mic. Sub measures null at LP. Audyssey creates a flat response at LP. HD measures distortion at 55hz. Sub shows a hump at 55hz after running Audyssey close mic. This seems pretty easy to figure out, my sub is now running hot at 55hz due to the correction, AT THE SUB DRIVER not the listening position, it measures flat there due to the correction. I cant be any clearer than that, simple.

Running hot at the driver is key at 55hz

Am I reading you wrong or are you running Audyssey with the mic close to the actual speaker?
post #50387 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Am I reading you wrong or are you running Audyssey with the mic close to the actual speaker?

Lol no, at the LP.
post #50388 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post


Lol no, at the LP.

Phew
post #50389 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Correct, not from Audyssey. How can Audyssey cause distortion at 55hz by boosting it to or closer to flat? Perhaps a defective sub at that frequency, inherent distortion in whatever signal or defective measurement equipment or technique. In any case you have certainly not shown "you can over drive your sub with Audyssey".



You can end up over driving a subwoofer with the use of any type of EQ. It all depends on how much headroom is available on your subwoofer system, the content that is being played and the SPL level being used.

If you have any type of limiting circuit in the subwoofer circuit, then you engage the limiting circuit instead of over driving the subwoofer.
post #50390 of 70896
Yes, of course you can overdo the sub with Audyssey, but usually it is related to the normalization process. But I suppose that if you are running close to the limits anyway, even the +9dB can do you in. My advice? Get more subs!

Jeff
post #50391 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

No, i showed it , classic forum banter, you dont see it, fine here we go again...for Pete's sake

Sub measures flat close mic. Sub measures null at LP. Audyssey creates a flat response at LP. HD measures distortion at 55hz. Sub shows a hump at 55hz after running Audyssey close mic. This seems pretty easy to figure out, my sub is now running hot at 55hz due to the correction, AT THE SUB DRIVER not the listening position, it measures flat there due to the correction. I cant be any clearer than that, simple.

Running hot at the driver is key at 55hz..... So where oh where did that mystery 5% HD come from, it wasnt there before....hmmmmm

My subs will not over extend at 55hz, but what if i had a sub with a 8" driver......my subs show about 5% HD at 55hz....just because you dont see it doesnt mean it isnt there LOL



Do you have a sweep of the subwoofer output taken direct from the preamp level subwoofer output connection on the AVR? That will tell you how much electrical boost & cut Audyssey applies to the subwoofer output circuit.
post #50392 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Yes, of course you can overdo the sub with Audyssey, but usually it is related to the normalization process. Jeff


It does not matter why it happens if it is an integrated part of the Audyssey process.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post


But I suppose that if you are running close to the limits anyway, even the +9dB can do you in. My advice? Get more subs!

Jeff



I suspect that at times most people are running close to the limits of their subwoofer systems.
post #50393 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Yes, of course you can overdo the sub with Audyssey, but usually it is related to the normalization process. But I suppose that if you are running close to the limits anyway, even the +9dB can do you in. My advice? Get more subs!

Jeff

Jeff, IMHO if you can over do a sub that means that sub is under spec'd. I wouldn't think Audyssey was made to over do any (capable) sub even with a +9 dB boost. Especially not causing 5% HD (harmonic distortion) as metioned by kgveteran, OMG!!! Get a better sub before getting more subs!
post #50394 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Yes, of course you can overdo the sub with Audyssey, but usually it is related to the normalization process. But I suppose that if you are running close to the limits anyway, even the +9dB can do you in. My advice? Get more subs!

Jeff

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


Jeff, IMHO if you can over do a sub that means that sub is under spec'd. I wouldn't think Audyssey was made to over do any (capable) sub even with a +9 dB boost. Especially not causing 5% HD (harmonic distortion) as metioned by kgveteran, OMG!!! Get a better sub before getting more subs!

9 dB is not exactly a small boost. Tripling power adds up quickly, particularly at sub amp wattages at or near reference. Not as big a deal at wattages of the satellites, but the fact is that Audyssey is just trying to do it's job. Room acoustics can be a bitch.
post #50395 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

9 dB is not exactly a small boost. Tripling power adds up quickly, particularly at sub amp wattages at or near reference. Not as big a deal at wattages of the satellites, but the fact is that Audyssey is just trying to do it's job. Room acoustics can be a bitch.

I don't see a real problem of wattage here Gooddoc. A 9 dB boost at a given frequency should mean a null is brought up by max. 9 dB in order to match the league of other frequencies at or around the flat(ish) level. Or in other words its not a real boost but a compensation of a null. It will surely work fine for nulls less than -9dB, but for lower nulls Audyssey will put hands up! Gotta live with it,...or buy more subs to even out the "sweet area"!!
post #50396 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

I don't see a real problem of wattage here Gooddoc. A 9 dB boost at a given frequency should mean a null is brought up by max. 9 dB in order to match the league of other frequencies at or around the flat(ish) level. Or in other words its not a real boost but a compensation of a null. It will surely work fine for nulls less than -9dB, but for lower nulls Audyssey will put hands up! Gotta live with it,...or buy more subs to even out the "sweet area"!!

But the amp and speaker are putting out 9 dB more at the relevant frequency than before they were boosted. It's not like they're correcting for an odd dip in the amp's output. Hopefully the amp is flat, and even if the driver in the box is anechoecially flat, it's -9dB or more in-room. So that's almost 10 times the power over the limited frequency band of the boost, right?
post #50397 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

But the amp and speaker are putting out 9 dB more at the relevant frequency than before they were boosted. It's not like they're correcting for an odd dip in the amp's output. Hopefully the amp is flat, and even if the driver in the box is anechoecially flat, it's -9dB or more in-room. So that's almost 10 times the power over the limited frequency band of the boost, right?

I don't think so JHaz, if a null at -9 dB is boosted by +9 dB, then the output shall/should be 0 dB, right? Where's the boost? Eaten up by the null! Where's the null, ...it's boosted by the compensation, i.e. leveled out! Our poor little null is being given a chance by Audyssey to join the league of the big boys gathering at/around the 0 db flat level. Right?
post #50398 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

I don't think so JHaz, if a null at -9 dB is boosted by +9 dB, then the output shall/should be 0 dB, right? Where's the boost? Eaten up by the null! Where's the null, ...it's boosted by the compensation, i.e. leveled out! Our poor little null is being given a chance by Audyssey to join the league of the big boys gathering at/around the 0 db flat level.

Would need to see measurement after. But generally, if you are running close to the edge with your sub, then a 9dB boost could send you over the edge.
post #50399 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Would need to see measurement after. But generally, if you are running close to the edge with your sub, then a 9dB boost could send you over the edge.

Jeff, please tell me if I'm wrong, but in my understanding that + 9 dB boost is not an eruption on the FR curve at a null frequency, but a compensation of a -9 dB suck out where the compensation will result in a flat(ish) overall response. Isn't it?
post #50400 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


I don't think so JHaz, if a null at -9 dB is boosted by +9 dB, then the output shall/should be 0 dB, right? Where's the boost? Eaten up by the null! Where's the null, ...it's boosted by the compensation, i.e. leveled out! Our poor little null is being given a chance by Audyssey to join the league of the big boys gathering at/around the 0 db flat level. Right?

Wrong. 9 dB is 9 dB, regardless of whether you boost a null or boost a flat FR
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