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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1703

post #51061 of 70905
For optimal results at the central listening position the area to be covered should eliminate local variations due to room modes. This means a sphere with an appr. radius of max. 1 foot around the center of your virtual head at ear height. A minimum distance to the surrounding walls and the seat back should be observed to preclude "coloring" of the measurement.
post #51062 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

This happens to be what I do now, simply because all the 'other' common LPs in my room are within 3.5 feet of mine (laterally only...there are no seats in front of or behind my MLP, though I still do take measurements in front and behind).

So I wonder how 'tight' one can go in the clustering and still get improvement at the MLP.

Since all of this falls under the purview of 'non-standard' recommendations, you can theoretically try a clustering as tight as you like with the qualifier that determining if the results are better or worse requires subsequent measuring with audio measurement equipment.

I found that I could get a very even response at my MLP by taking only 3 measurements. Two at the MLP and one 18" forward of the MLP. My graphs from this are posted in this thread. The problem is, it works well for me (and makes recalibration much quicker) but I wouldn't recommend anyone else do this unless they can measure the result to see how well it works in their own room.


Max
post #51063 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

About a foot.

Thanks. The other suggestions go excitingly close together. I will try a few runs when I finally get my Pro kit and FW update.
post #51064 of 70905
See below:
post #51065 of 70905
Hi Keith and others who joined in with help.

I have decided that the SVS sub and of course the tips about XO has made the largest change in my system ever.

I have had Arcam, Musical Fidelity Xdac / Xray combo Harmon Kardon etc what have i now a Sony BD 580 and the music from it is really good.

Of course this has now got me thinking about upgade on the BD player though for what i have no idea.

I just want to say again wow and thanks for the help, i may ask what some other things like spl etc are but for the moment i can hardly drag myself away from CD.

Many Many Thanks

Allan

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Do run as many Audyssey mic positions as you can when you get chance. The more you use the better the calibration.



100Hz is probably OK. Try it both ways and go with your ears. You might want to turn up the trim a few dB on the sub channel, just for fun, while you are amazing yourself with the SVS's bass performance You can turn it back to a more accurate, flat response later once you have got over the room shaking etc....



It's best to keep them identical if possible.



SVS have a European distributor (L-Sound in Norway) and they are extremely customer-focused and would help you if the sub failed. But what can fail really? There's the amp, which you could swap out yourself in about 10 minutes (SVS will supply one if needed) and there's the driver, which is very unlikely to fail, but even if it did, again you can swap it out in a few minutes. So, don't sweat it!
post #51066 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan0210 View Post

Hi Keith and others who joined in with help.

I have decided that the SVS sub and of course the tips about XO has made the largest change in my system ever.

I have had Arcam, Musical Fidelity Xdac / Xray combo Harmon Kardon etc what have i now a Sony BD 580 and the music from it is really good.

Of course this has now got me thinking about upgade on the BD player though for what i have no idea.

I just want to say again wow and thanks for the help, i may ask what some other things like spl etc are but for the moment i can hardly drag myself away from CD.

Many Many Thanks

Allan

Allan - that is great news. I am so glad it's all working out for you. Enjoy!

SPL = Sound Pressure Level - ie loudness, usually in dB.
post #51067 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

And distortion through magnetic flux modulation is another form of instantaneous compression that yields a non-linear response.

It's a problem that appears at high drive levels.

That sounds like something from Back To The Future

Cheers,
SB
post #51068 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Audyssey -

I have my center speaker mounted above my TV. If I aim it downward at the listening position at a 45degrees angle, Audyssey crosses it at 100hz. If I aim it around 40 degrees, Audyssey crosses at 60hz. The speaker is capable of 50hz@3+-db. Which setting should I retain? The one that results in a lower crossover? or the one that is aimed slightly better?

Updated my question:
post #51069 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan0210 View Post


Of course this has now got me thinking about upgade on the BD player though for what i have no idea.

You would do well to consider an Oppo. BDP-93 if you're only using HDMI, BDP-95 if you're also going to use analog.

Just MHO

Cheers,
SB
post #51070 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99
Audyssey -

I have my center speaker mounted above my TV. If I aim it downward at the listening position at a 45degrees angle, Audyssey crosses it at 100hz. If I aim it around 40 degrees, Audyssey crosses at 60hz. The speaker is capable of 50hz@3+-db. Which setting should I retain? The one that results in a lower crossover? or the one that is aimed slightly better?
Updated my question:


I'd suggest using the angle that directs the speaker closest to ear level at your main listening position, and then use the recommended crossover.
post #51071 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

For continuous levels of high volume, it's about thermal compression.

Some pro audio mfgr's like JBL and 18Sound publish power compression data.

As an example, the spec's for the 18Sound 12ND710 woofers in my mains are

Power Compression @-10dB 0,6 dB
Power Compression @-3dB 2 dB
Power Compression @Full Power 2,8 dB
post #51072 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan0210 View Post

I have had Arcam, Musical Fidelity Xdac / Xray combo Harmon Kardon etc what have i now a Sony BD 580 and the music from it is really good.

Of course this has now got me thinking about upgade on the BD player though for what i have no idea.

I would guess that since you are likely using an HDMI connection to your receiver, you won't get any significant improvement by spending MUCH more on another player. Save your shekels for more music and movie purchases!
post #51073 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

I would guess that since you are likely using an HDMI connection to your receiver, you won't get any significant improvement by spending MUCH more on another player. Save your shekels for more music and movie purchases!

+1. I can't comment on music, but for movies Blu-ray is Blu-ray and all players are pretty much the same in terms of PQ when sending 1080p 24Hz to a display. Of course, there is pride of ownership, build quality, reliability and manufacturer support to factor in as well. That pretty much points to Oppo. I have been using one of the higher-end Pioneers for years now and until it breaks it will not be upgraded. If it broke tomorrow, I'd probably go with Oppo.

I can't see the point of analogue either as it entails totally bypassing Audyssey. Audyssey will do more the sound of a system than any tiny difference in DACs will ever do.
post #51074 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


I can't see the point of analogue either as it entails totally bypassing Audyssey. Audyssey will do more the sound of a system than any tiny difference in DACs will ever do.

Keith,

Not all enthusiasts have the luxury of two seperate rooms, one for their HT, the other for music only stereo. An Oppo BDP-95 (or the older BDP-83SE) allows the user to enjoy movies through an HDMI connection and the tremendous advantage of Audyssey RC side-by-side with analog "purist" two channel music utilizing a stereo preamp via the HT Bypass feature found on many AVR's and AVP's. Use Oppo's HDMI output for HT and for music the top quality DAC's from the analog outputs found on on either of these Oppo's for the best of both worlds.

You don't have Audyssey in your two-channel music only room, do ya?

Just askin'

Cheers,
SB
post #51075 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Some pro audio mfgr's like JBL and 18Sound publish power compression data.

As an example, the spec's for the 18Sound 12ND710 woofers in my mains are

Power Compression @-10dB 0,6 dB
Power Compression @-3dB 2 dB
Power Compression @Full Power 2,8 dB

Cool to see. Just for grins, I looked up the speaker. It's pretty sensitive at 101 dB, and rated not to explode with 450 watts.

As I understand it, the compression figures mean, theoretically, that at 45 watts (-10 dB), when the speaker would be expected to put out a little over 115 dB at one meter, it could be expected to be at about 114.4 instead.

Now for my purposes, in my current room at the levels I listen, this means the driver would not ever compress (I am a -20 dB from reference person generally).

But for those who sit farther away and listen louder, the -3 dB spec means that when the driver is receiving 225 watts, and could be expected to be outputting a bit over 123 dB at one meter, it'll be at something more like 121. FWIW, that means, if it were linear up to 100 watts, that extra hundred watts generates the additional output that an extra 25 watts should. (AIUI, a 25% power increase is about 1 dB)

And that last 225 watts, getting you to 0 dB at 450 watts input, which theoretically should get you a bit over 126 dB, would actually yield only 123.2 dB. So it takes about 450 watts to yield the output that 225 watts would produce if the system were linear out to 450 watts.

Overall, impressive (to my eyes) performance.

If my little Studio 10s performed similarly, I think I'd be looking at 95.6ish dB at -10 (max power is specified at 90 watts, but I'm using 100 because I'm lazy and it's less than a dB difference). If it's only .6 dB down, it's pretty close to linear and louder (with ten whole watts) than I'm likely ever to need them to be at my listening levels and distance. My WAG is that the Studio 10s would not hold up in the low end (relatively speaking) as well as the 18 Ssounds at -3 dB, and certainly not at full rated power. I also suspect that I'd increase distortion from the speakers significantly as I push them into compression. Luckily for me I don't have to (I think/hope/guess) although one day I'll probably get Studio 60s for the fronts just to have a little more air movin' capability.
post #51076 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post


That sounds like something from Back To The Future

I had the same thought, and I don't understand it either.

But the point is that there are several phenomena that will create a nonlinear response, such that turning up the volume does not yield the same frequency response that you have at low drive levels.

And Audessey cannot fix this, as it can only ask of speakers that which is within their capabilities.

Just like you can't EQ a sub to have unlimited output at any frequency, due to running into driver or amp limits.
post #51077 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

I had the same thought, and I don't understand it either.

I just wanted a ride in that Delorean with the magnetic flux capacitor

Cheers,
SB
post #51078 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Cool to see. ...

For those interested, there was a discussion on AVS here recently about the effects of compression on peaks.

I made a Google spreadsheet showing compression data for three JBL Pro drivers and one JBL studio monitor. I should add your 18Sounds to that list.

Not only does one deal with reduced output due to thermal compression, but also a changed frequency response, due to the impedance change. For some people, that might be more of a concern?

Wouldn't it be nice if Audessey in its setup could detect the onset of power compression and make note of that? Kind of like a clip light on an amp, but in this instance it could indicate maximum values before distortion goes up more dramatically, etc. Help people to set good levels and know where their system's limitations are at.
post #51079 of 70905
This thread is epic and searching does not help much when trying to figure out my problem. So, at the risk of being a bit rude I ask:

I'm looking at the Denon 1712 and 1912, and Marantz NR1402 and 1602. The Denon 1712 is the only one with MultEQ XT whereas the others are speced at normal everyday MultEQ. The difference according to the Audyssey site is a 2x vs 16x Filter Resolution on the satellites, but they fail to ever explain what that actually means. Simply put, is MultEQ XT enough of an improvement to fret over when compared to vanilla MultEQ?

Thanks all!
post #51080 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

This thread is epic and searching does not help much when trying to figure out my problem. So, at the risk of being a bit rude I ask:

I'm looking at the Denon 1712 and 1912, and Marantz NR1402 and 1602. The Denon 1712 is the only one with MultEQ XT whereas the others are speced at normal everyday MultEQ. The difference according to the Audyssey site is a 2x vs 16x Filter Resolution on the satellites, but they fail to ever explain what that actually means. Simply put, is MultEQ XT enough of an improvement to fret over when compared to vanilla MultEQ?

Thanks all!

Simply put, yes.
post #51081 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

Keith,

Not all enthusiasts have the luxury of two seperate rooms, one for their HT, the other for music only stereo.

You are, of course, right, SB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

An Oppo BDP-95 (or the older BDP-83SE) allows the user to enjoy movies through an HDMI connection and the tremendous advantage of Audyssey RC side-by-side with analog "purist" two channel music utilizing a stereo preamp via the HT Bypass feature found on many AVR's and AVP's.
Use Oppo's HDMI output for HT and for music the top quality DAC's from the analog outputs found on on either of these Oppo's for the best of both worlds.

I just can't see the point of that. If someone is set up in one room with an AVR, connected via HDMI, then it seems to me that it's best to use HDMI for everything and thus gain the considerable benefits of Audyssey. The difference in the DACs on the Oppo and on a top flight AVR/AVP will be negligible and certainly not as noticeable as the absence of room correction. IMO. Not to mention the delights of M/CH music either!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

You don't have Audyssey in your two-channel music only room, do ya?

Just askin'

No - nothing at all. Nothing has changed in my music setup for at least 20 years. It's just a class A two channel amp, two speakers and a CD player. No room correction of any sort but the room is 'lightly treated' just by soft furnishings, furniture, carpets, drapes and so on. IOW, a normal sitting room. Over the years I believe I have learned to 'listen through' the room. Despite having the flagship Onkyo 5509 and XT32 etc, I still prefer music on my old stereo system. There is probably no good, logical reason for this - I guess it is just what I am used to. I like keeping the HT for movies and the sitting room for music and I'd feel odd sitting down in what is essentially a small cinema to listen to music. It's just me - take no notice

But if I was going to use my HT for music, I'd definitely use HDMI and Audyssey LOL!
post #51082 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomez81 View Post

attached are some ht photos. No, don't have the "ip" models.

The mlp to wall is 13 feet. Little less with center since not in wall. I have a square Ottoman 3x3 , in between the mlp and front soundstage.

Hi. I forgot to attach the guide last time, here it is.

I believe your CC is 24" wide so my guess is that your front in-walls are about 9' apart. So ideally you should be seated about 8-9' away from the front wall. That would place FR/L close to 30 degrees off midline (see illustration below). Where the MLP is now, the FR/L are only about 20 degrees off midline. This narrows your front soundstage and decreases the effective "surround bubble" immersion effect, especially without Audyssey DSX wides. In addition, that bookcase on the left is causing significant assymmetry and likely problem reflections for FL. I'd push it further L if I could. I can't say more without more pics and a layout.

ps you neeed a bigger display for 13' viewing distance!
LL
post #51083 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by darklordjames View Post

This thread is epic and searching does not help much when trying to figure out my problem. So, at the risk of being a bit rude I ask:

I'm looking at the Denon 1712 and 1912, and Marantz NR1402 and 1602. The Denon 1712 is the only one with MultEQ XT whereas the others are speced at normal everyday MultEQ. The difference according to the Audyssey site is a 2x vs 16x Filter Resolution on the satellites, but they fail to ever explain what that actually means. Simply put, is MultEQ XT enough of an improvement to fret over when compared to vanilla MultEQ?

Thanks all!

Absolutely. And if you could run to XT32, that's a step up yet again.
post #51084 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post

... An Oppo BDP-95 (or the older BDP-83SE) allows the user to enjoy movies through an HDMI connection and the tremendous advantage of Audyssey RC side-by-side with analog "purist" two channel music utilizing a stereo preamp via the HT Bypass feature found on many AVR's and AVP's. Use Oppo's HDMI output for HT and for music the top quality DAC's from the analog outputs found on on either of these Oppo's for the best of both worlds...

Not so fast, Bill. The question for the fellow with an "analog 'purist' two channel music utilizing a stereo preamp via the HT Bypass feature" is thus:

If your SQ benefits from Audyssey for HiRes MC why would your stereo music not benefit as well?

I spent considerable time, $ and effort on this question, as recorded here in my HT bypass analog preamp thread. This was with an XT-equipped AVR4310. Regardless of superior dedicated stereo DACs in the Oppo DBP 83SE and the cleaner preamp sections, the room nastiness smudged it up. Now with the AVR A100/4311 with XT32, DSP RC wins even more handily. And the Pro kit kicks it up another notch from there. So any "path" that bypasses Audyssey is the wrong path for me!
post #51085 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post




No - nothing at all. Nothing has changed in my music setup for at least 20 years. It's just a class A two channel amp, two speakers and a CD player. No room correction of any sort but the room is 'lightly treated' just by soft furnishings, furniture, carpets, drapes and so on. IOW, a normal sitting room. Over the years I believe I have learned to 'listen through' the room. Despite having the flagship Onkyo 5509 and XT32 etc, I still prefer music on my old stereo system. There is probably no good, logical reason for this - I guess it is just what I am used to. I like keeping the HT for movies and the sitting room for music and I'd feel odd sitting down in what is essentially a small cinema to listen to music. It's just me - take no notice

But if I was going to use my HT for music, I'd definitely use HDMI and Audyssey LOL!

Interesting position for such an Audyssey advocate, Keith. Have you ever listened to music in the HT room to see what it sounds like with Audyssey?
post #51086 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post


Hi. I forgot to attach the guide last time, here it is.

I believe your CC is 24" wide so my guess is that your front in-walls are about 9' apart. So ideally you should be seated about 8-9' away from the front wall. That would place FR/L close to 30 degrees off midline (see illustration below). Where the MLP is now, the FR/L are only about 20 degrees off midline. This narrows your front soundstage and decreases the effective "surround bubble" immersion effect, especially without Audyssey DSX wides. In addition, that bookcase on the left is causing significant assymmetry and likely problem reflections for FL. I'd push it further L if I could. I can't say more without more pics and a layout.

ps you neeed a bigger display for 13' viewing distance!

first off thanks. Yes, need new tv. Should be getting a new bigger one by September. Current is 47 inches.

I am moving book shelve, per waf, this week. I agree with reflections. I will get more photos and distances to here tomorrow. The fronts and center are fixed. The couch will not be moving from back wall, per wife.


I do feel my sound stage is small and narrow.
post #51087 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Interesting position for such an Audyssey advocate, Keith. Have you ever listened to music in the HT room to see what it sounds like with Audyssey?

Keith, I'm equally curious to know if you've ever hooked up XT32 in the music room and used it with the setup there just to see how it sounds.


Max
post #51088 of 70905
Hi Keith

Do you think that with the amp sorting out my speakers except my changing the xo would an spl meter be of any use to me please. I have located a site that i could get a meter for about £60 shipped if it would make a big change.

Thanks

Allan

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Allan - that is great news. I am so glad it's all working out for you. Enjoy!

SPL = Sound Pressure Level - ie loudness, usually in dB.
post #51089 of 70905
I don't think the important issue is loss of level, but change in driver parameters.

The compression is because the voice coil is hot and its resistance higher, which directly affects Qe.

This will have a much bigger affect on a ported box than sealed, but perhaps insignificant in either case if the respective Fb and Fc hipassed sufficiently above these freq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Cool to see. Just for grins, I looked up the speaker. It's pretty sensitive at 101 dB, and rated not to explode with 450 watts.

As I understand it, the compression figures mean, theoretically, that at 45 watts (-10 dB), when the speaker would be expected to put out a little over 115 dB at one meter, it could be expected to be at about 114.4 instead.

Now for my purposes, in my current room at the levels I listen, this means the driver would not ever compress (I am a -20 dB from reference person generally).

But for those who sit farther away and listen louder, the -3 dB spec means that when the driver is receiving 225 watts, and could be expected to be outputting a bit over 123 dB at one meter, it'll be at something more like 121. FWIW, that means, if it were linear up to 100 watts, that extra hundred watts generates the additional output that an extra 25 watts should. (AIUI, a 25% power increase is about 1 dB)

And that last 225 watts, getting you to 0 dB at 450 watts input, which theoretically should get you a bit over 126 dB, would actually yield only 123.2 dB. So it takes about 450 watts to yield the output that 225 watts would produce if the system were linear out to 450 watts.

Overall, impressive (to my eyes) performance.
post #51090 of 70905
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Not so fast, Bill. The question for the fellow with an "analog 'purist' two channel music utilizing a stereo preamp via the HT Bypass feature" is thus:

If your SQ benefits from Audyssey for HiRes MC why would your stereo music not benefit as well?

I spent considerable time, $ and effort on this question, as recorded here in my HT bypass analog preamp thread. This was with an XT-equipped AVR4310. Regardless of superior dedicated stereo DACs in the Oppo DBP 83SE and the cleaner preamp sections, the room nastiness smudged it up. Now with the AVR A100/4311 with XT32, DSP RC wins even more handily. And the Pro kit kicks it up another notch from there. So any "path" that bypasses Audyssey is the wrong path for me!

That is exactly what I was getting at, from a theoretical POV. You have added a *practical* POV to that, having extensively tested the theory. I am convinced that your way is the best.
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