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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1723

post #51661 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

^^^ means referring to the above post, but my was beat with a post in-between...

The ^ is the Shift-6 key.

My Hungarian keyboard gives: "/" with Shift-6!! Never mind but thanks!

Edit: found it, it's: Alt Gr + 3 + Space, heck with it, it's too complicated even to remember!! ^^^
post #51662 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by veger69 View Post

Correct although it was more bad memory than typo 2809ci

Yours is a fine AVR ( my son has my old 2809) but is not Pro-capable. For most circumstances I recommend upgrading to an XT32 model (like the 4311) before investing in Pro.
post #51663 of 70884
You can enter characters/symbols not found on your keyboard using ASCII codes
post #51664 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think that the fact that there are some 52,000 posts in this thread shows that setting up Audyssey is as much an art as a science - a black art possibly . Your own setup procedure, while clearly very effective for you, is miles from what Audyssey say is needed, and again, I put that forward as evidence that it is from from 'perfect'.

Is it really far from perfect? Would most casual users know the difference? Didn't you say you know there's a difference but can't say one or the other set of mic positions is correct?

As long as the software doesn't give a bad result when following the guide I'd say it's giving a good result.

I refrained from using the seven letter word.

Harrison
post #51665 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by veger69 View Post

Thanks Harrison
I have a Denon AVR 2903ci with Audyssey MultiEq XT. I do not believe my receiver is compatible with the pro kit.

You are correct. However, though you may be limited to 8 mic locations, you still can avoid errors and maximize your results with knowledge gained from the Guide (which applies primarily to your case) and other postings here.

Harrison
post #51666 of 70884
Figured I would post this here, lot of the peoples opinions I want are in this thread LOL!!

Whats your opinion of this dual sub placement?

I just got another 15" sub and have placed them in the front soundstage instead of one in the front and one in the rear, what are your opionins on this. I have heard with 2 subs place at the same distance on the front wall and the other on the rear wall would be best....my questions are:

1. I have a laminate floor behind MLP, I know this will effect the bass but how bad?

2. I can not put a sub directly in the middle on the front wall, I can on the rear. I am using isolation pads just incase anyone asks.

3. Is the sound quality going to be that noticable.....I have to run a 30-40ft cable to do this and hope it is worth it LOL!!


Room Measurements: 25 ft wide and 27 ft deep and ceilings are 6.9"

Accoustics:(Figured I would list this in case it helps on a decision)

Bass traps: GIK Tri-traps fromm floor to ceiling in all 4 corners
Rear wall: 3 X 7.5" "monster bass trap and QRD diffussers
All other reflection points Ceiling, side walls done with 242 accoustic panels.

Pics of Room:

Current location:




I am standing where the other sub is basically so you can see the space I have behind MLP:

post #51667 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

As mentioned I tried many different mic positions, starting with a minimum of 8 and the full 32 positions. There did not seem to be anything different in the graphs after I went above 15 positions (in my room) and it really did not sound any different with more. I still did 20 just to have a good sampling of the seating area as in my diagram. At one point I actually did 15 (remove the ones not on the couch) and added another 15 in the same spots, but 5 inches above. Again, the results did not seem that different than the original 15.

Sounds like good news to me. if the results don't change much with added positions, those positions aren't picking up much in the way of significant missed problems that XT can help with.

Harrison
post #51668 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976 View Post

Figured I would post this here, lot of the peoples opinions I want are in this thread LOL!!

Whats your opinion of this dual sub placement?

I just got another 15" sub and have placed them in the front soundstage instead of one in the front and one in the rear, what are your opionins on this. I have heard with 2 subs place at the same distance on the front wall and the other on the rear wall would be best....my questions are:

. . . . . . . .

robc, do you have a pro install kit? Or a receiver that will show you the corrections that Audyssey makes? Do you have some time? If so you can run tests that will tell you how each sub is doing in the listening area. I can explain how to do that if you wish.

Harrison
post #51669 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

robc, do you have a pro install kit? Or a receiver that will show you the corrections that Audyssey makes? Do you have some time? If so you can run tests that will tell you how each sub is doing in the listening area. I can explain how to do that if you wish.

Harrison

I have a 4311ci but I dont have the pro-kit (still kicking my self for not having it yet) LOL! My 4311ci when I had 1 sub would NEVER get the distance setting...it woyld say it was 0.7ft away when it was 12 ft so I always set it to exactly what it was....had to do this with 2 subs here to.
post #51670 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976 View Post


Whats your opinion of this dual sub placement?

It looks nice. However, rarely is a dual sub placement like this the best placement. Midwall front/rear or midwall left/right is the best as it smooths out the room's moes.

edit: gotta watch those moes ...
post #51671 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976 View Post

Figured I would post this here, lot of the peoples opinions I want are in this thread LOL!!

Hi Rob,

I would most probably take those subs out of the front corners of the room and would put them on the sidewalls a tad bit in a line above the couch but lower than the side towers. And then would re-run Audyssey. Try to experiment!

Nice pix, BTW!
post #51672 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976 View Post

I have a 4311ci but I dont have the pro-kit (still kicking my self for not having it yet) LOL! My 4311ci when I had 1 sub would NEVER get the distance setting...it woyld say it was 0.7ft away when it was 12 ft so I always set it to exactly what it was....had to do this with 2 subs here to.

The 4311 like it's predecessors will show you a graph of the filter magnitude correction that is being applied. You can run a single mic location test at each of three or four head positions across the sofa with just one sub connected and look at that display to see what corrections Audyssey would need to make. Do this for each of the two subs. If it shows problems that Audyssey can't handle, one or both subs need to be moved.

If you have REW, it will do this job with less effort, but the job can be done with the built-in Audyssey software.

What you want to see from the tests is minimum sub correction requirements and corrections on the two subs that are at different frequencies or that are offsetting. A correction that goes beyond 10 db is to be avoided. Large corrections at the same frequency on both subs are to be avoided. If one sub has a peak and the other has a dip at the same frequency, that is okay.

If the 4311 insists on some minimum number of measurements, run all of them without moving the mic. I'd use a digital camera to record the results of each test run.

Corner sub performance depends heavily on what's in the diagonally opposite corner. A trap there or other absorbing item will be helpful. The second best locations is 1/3 of the way across a wall. That excites room modes less at lower frequencies. In my own case the two locations are the left corner and 1/3 of the way in from the right corner, behind or just to the left or your right main. These two locations may be highly complementary in terms of the ups and downs in the frequency response across the sofa. If the opposite corner is better for the right corner sub, leave it and move the left one in to the 1/3 point.

However, do check both subs as outlined above before moving either of them. You might luck out with two corner subs. Like Pepar said, that often doesn't work, but it's worth a try. If it works for even just one sub, you are ahead of the game in that that strengthens the direct wave significantly and gives you more sub SPL for your money.

My experience with sidewall subs was disastrous. Putting them 1/3 of the way across the wall is best but if that's anywhere near the left or right side of the sofa, you may find a huge dip that runs fore and aft at the frequency where the direct wave and the reflection coming back off of the far wall meet. The frequency where that occurs is different for each position on the sofa. This dip is very high Q and may be very deep (20 db or more) so might be beyond Audyssey's capability to correct. Your room treatments may help deal with this but I'd say it's likely not ideal.

Hope this is helpful. You are sure to get other inputs.

Harrison
post #51673 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

It looks nice. However, rarely is a dual sub placement like this the best placement. Midwall front/rear or midwall left/right is the best as it smooths out the room's moes.

edit: gotta watch those moes ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi Rob,

I would most probably take those subs out of the front corners of the room and would put them on the sidewalls a tad bit in a line above the couch but lower than the side towers. And then would re-run Audyssey. Try to experiment!

Nice pix, BTW!

Like this guys?? This would be much easier since I wouldn't have to run a 30 ft sub cable in the ceiling LOL!! The panels behind the sub I will raise up a bit.



Will this cause a reflection with my wide speaker....I really do not want to move it foward but will if I have to...I have OCD about that stuff LOL!!

post #51674 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I agree with you, Keith. One of the challenges we face in this thread is to assess a poster's level of expertise and target the response accordingly. If we were to somehow be able to assemble the incredible amount of knowledge in this thread into an Audyssey FAQ, then both the basic and advanced aspects of a topic could be presented. I continue to respect the valuable advice that you provide to the new thread participants!

Thanks AJ. Yes, if a FAQ were possible it would be fantastic. But it would be a huge undertaking for someone and I doubt if anyone has the time (or indeed inclination). Meanwhile, we all soldier on, doing our bit when we can I guess And so the thread gets bigger... and bigger... and bigger...
post #51675 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Keith, ...or as another option we can use our own ears as well. I've just recently come to the conclusion how superb microphones our ears can be when it comes to tweaking such delicate issues like the XO splice. Warning: deep water, swimmers only!

The problem with relying on our ears for adjusting the sub distance/splice is that it would take for ever and be so time consuming nobody would want to undertake it. And that is assuming that our ears are reliable enough and our incredibly brief auditory memory is up to the job. I think it would be very difficult to remember the way it sounded in between tests, the tests taking at the very least a few minutes to undertake.

The beauty of using OmniMic is that you can see in a few minutes exactly what difference you have made by adjusting the sub distance by +0.5 feet, +1 foot, + 1.5 feet etc etc etc and then -0.5 feet, -1 foot etc etc etc. In fact when I tried it I only needed to do two or three runs and I could see the difference clearly. I am sure I would have found it very difficult to remember the differences and would have had to repeat the tests ad infinitum before I had confidence in the results.
post #51676 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

Is it really far from perfect? Would most casual users know the difference? Didn't you say you know there's a difference but can't say one or the other set of mic positions is correct?

I did. That's why I think it's not perfect though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

As long as the software doesn't give a bad result when following the guide I'd say it's giving a good result.

Oh I heartily agree - a great result even.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

I refrained from using the seven letter word.

So you did Shall we agree that the horse, if not dead, is thoroughly exhausted and in need of a good rest?
post #51677 of 70884
Robc1976: Awesome room that is SCREAMING for a screen at least 10 feet wide.

Very nice. Very!!!!!
post #51678 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976 View Post


Like this guys?? This would be much easier since I wouldn't have to run a 30 ft sub cable in the ceiling LOL!! The panels behind the sub I will raise up a bit.

Will this cause a reflection with my wide speaker....I really do not want to move it foward but will if I have to...I have OCD about that stuff LOL!!

If you don't have measurement gear to help show which is better for response, I would try the original corner location and then like you have pictured now. One third along the front wall looks to be about where your mains are so probably won't work fo you. So run audyssey with both setups and see which you prefer. I run mine both along the front wall at 1/3 points.
post #51679 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Robc1976: Awesome room that is SCREAMING for a screen at least 10 feet wide.

Very nice. Very!!!!!

Thanks man!!! Lot of work and a lot of great advice from people in this thread made it possible!
post #51680 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks AJ. Yes, if a FAQ were possible it would be fantastic. But it would be a huge undertaking for someone and I doubt if anyone has the time (or indeed inclination). Meanwhile, we all soldier on, doing our bit when we can I guess And so the thread gets bigger... and bigger... and bigger...

I sure wouldn't want to go back and catalog all of the good points made in the 1700 pages, but a lot of the issues come up time and again. If we just started collecting the wisdom going forward, it would mount up fairly quickly.

Also, sometimes it's easier to start over than to edit older material into a new format.

If we started with an outline of the topics to be covered we could add pieces as they come along.

Harrison
post #51681 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I did. That's why I think it's not perfect though.

Trying to salvage something from the poor horse here. Just wondering what you would do to the design to solve the problem of different mic placements giving different results?

My only thought is the aforementioned increase in the number of mic positions within the mic'd area. I.e., maybe raise the 8 to 16?

Harrison
post #51682 of 70884
Step 8 under setting the subwoofer volume:

8.A suggestion for tweakers is to set the subwoofer trim level in the range of ±3 dB.

What is the +/-3 dB referring too? Is it between +3 to -3 or +/-3dB of some other number?
post #51683 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by hey!steve! View Post

Step 8 under setting the subwoofer volume:

8.A suggestion for tweakers is to set the subwoofer trim level in the range of ±3 dB.

What is the +/-3 dB referring too? Is it between +3 to -3 or +/-3dB of some other number?

It means when you have finished the calibration and you go to the part of your AVR menu where you can see the trim levels for each speaker, the sub should ideally be set at somewhere between -3dB and +3dB. It doesn't matter too much if the levels are outside this range so long as they do not 'hit the stops' and show up as -15dB or +15dB because in that case you would have no way of knowing if Audyssey would have adjusted them further if it had been able to. But you don't need to sweat it if your final setting after calibration is, say, -5dB.

If you are concerned that your sub is too far away from the 'ideal', then adjust the volume on the sub itself in the required direction and run Audyssey again. IOW, if your sub shows -11dB you want to lower the volume on the sub prior to re-running Audyssey - if it shows +11dB you want to raise the sub volume. Do not touch the sub volume control after you have run Audyssey.

The latest versions of MultEQ have a level setting feature that you use prior to doing the multiple measurements. If you have this, then set the sub volume control so that it reads 75dB on your screen and you are good to go. If your AVR does not have this feature, then just use the starting point you already have. If this is your first ever Audyssey run, then set the sub volume control to about the 10 o'clock position and try that - then rinse and repeat as above until you are happy.

Tip: just for setting the sub volume control with Audyssey you don't need to run all 8 positions. Set the mic at the normal main listening position (MLP) and do the first three (the minimum) all from that one mic position, then see what your sub trim is set at. If you need to adjust, repeat. When you are happy with the sub volume control setting and the reported trim, then you can run Audyssey for the 'real' calibration using all the mic positions your version of MultEQ allows. Please read and follow the Setup Guide to get the very best possible result.

If you have any other problems with it, come back and ask again. Good luck.
post #51684 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

I sure wouldn't want to go back and catalog all of the good points made in the 1700 pages, but a lot of the issues come up time and again. If we just started collecting the wisdom going forward, it would mount up fairly quickly.

Also, sometimes it's easier to start over than to edit older material into a new format.

If we started with an outline of the topics to be covered we could add pieces as they come along.

Harrison

Agreed, Harrison. I have one or two of the FAQs on macros already. Topics I can think of right away that come up repeatedly: small or large for speakers, what should the XO setting be, what is LPF of LFE and where should I set it, what mic positions should I use, should I use all mic positions, why do I need to measure in places nobody sits, where has my bass gone, how do I connect two subs, screen says ambient noise too high, I can't hear dialogue properly, and many more I can't think of right now.

Some of the above are in the Setup Guide of course. I have to admit that it is some time since I read the Setup Guide - I will have a look at it asap. A lot of novices still don't bother to read the Guide and I guess our answer should always be, when something is covered in the Guide, RTFG!

One small issue - the Thread Starter doesn't seem very interested in helping us amend the content of the first post or two, or indeed the thread title, so we would have to rely on the Mods to change things for us or we'd need to host a separate FAQ elsewhere and link to it.

All of this has been discussed before (it should be one of the FAQs!) but it never flies. I guess it's the commitment of time from someone to actually get it done that is the hard part.
post #51685 of 70884
Thanks Keith, big help. I just got a new BIC PL-200 and after running Audyssey it came out to -12 dB so I will lower the volume and rerun it again. Is getting to -3db better then let's say -6dB? I don't mind tinkering with it so I rather it be spot on it. My Audyssey is 2EQ (TX-NR609) if it helps.
post #51686 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

Trying to salvage something from the poor horse here. Just wondering what you would do to the design to solve the problem of different mic placements giving different results?

Harrison - do you mean how could it be improved? But you can't improve on perfection surely?! LOL, sorry... couldn't resist it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

My only thought is the aforementioned increase in the number of mic positions within the mic'd area. I.e., maybe raise the 8 to 16?

Harrison

Yep - that may, er, not improve, er.... change it for the better, er....

TBH, I think you said it before - the differences, when following the instructions, are not large and quite likely only affect the OCD element of this thread (almost all of the 'regulars that would be then...).
post #51687 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by hey!steve! View Post

Thanks Keith, big help. I just got a new BIC PL-200 and after running Audyssey it came out to -12 dB so I will lower the volume and rerun it again. Is getting to -3db better then let's say -6dB? I don't mind tinkering with it so I rather it be spot on it. My Audyssey is 2EQ (TX-NR609) if it helps.

You don't need to get it spot on. The Guide suggests -3dB to +3dB probably because it allows some adjustment and tweaking to preference later. For example, you may want to run your sub a little 'hot' as many do. This entails turning up the volume in the trim settings after you have calibrated. So if your trim was set by Audyssey to +9, and you wanted to add +4, then you are getting close to the limits. There is also the possibility of overdriving the sub if the input from the preamp is fairly low and you have to wind it up on the sub amp to compensate. Similarly, the reverse is true and you don't want a very low setting for the sub volume control because this will mean 'winding up' the signal from the preamp and this may cause it go into clipping. Personally, I would shoot for -5dB to +5dB but if you prefer to stay within the Guide's suggestion then tinker with it until you get there.

But if you are slightly outside it then don't worry. FWIW, I don't think my subs have ever been in that range - currently they are both set at -5dB and it is no cause for concern in the least.

I am assuming you are happy with the trim settings for your other speakers?

Incidentally, a point which came up the other day - if the distance reported for your sub is greater than the physical distance in the room, that is normal too. Audyssey accounts for internal processing in the sub when it sets the sub distance. ('Distance' is actually 'delay' in reality).

One final point I should have mentioned before - on your sub you will need to set the internal sub XO to Off or Bypass or Defeat or whatever they might call it. If it doesn't have a switch for that, then turn it up to its highest setting - often something like 150Hz. Doing that gets it out of the way for Audyssey. Also, make sure that the phase control on the sub is set to 0.
post #51688 of 70884
I've search bat pig guide and the forum but I was not able to find what I'm looking for. I have a Denon AVR-1712 and when I set my system using audyssey auto calibration the sound level is way too low. I always have to raise all channel level by at least 5db. Am I doing something wrong???
post #51689 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You don't need to get it spot on. The Guide suggests -3dB to +3dB probably because it allows some adjustment and tweaking to preference later. For example, you may want to run your sub a little 'hot' as many do. This entails turning up the volume in the trim settings after you have calibrated. So if your trim was set by Audyssey to +9, and you wanted to add +4, then you are getting close to the limits. There is also the possibility of overdriving the sub if the input from the preamp is fairly low and you have to wind it up on the sub amp to compensate. Similarly, the reverse is true and you don't want a very low setting for the sub volume control because this will mean 'winding up' the signal from the preamp and this may cause it go into clipping. Personally, I would shoot for -5dB to +5dB but if you prefer to stay within the Guide's suggestion then tinker with it until you get there.

But if you are slightly outside it then don't worry. FWIW, I don't think my subs have ever been in that range - currently they are both set at -5dB and it is no cause for concern in the least.

I am assuming you are happy with the trim settings for your other speakers?

Incidentally, a point which came up the other day - if the distance reported for your sub is greater than the physical distance in the room, that is normal too. Audyssey accounts for internal processing in the sub when it sets the sub distance. ('Distance' is actually 'delay' in reality).

One final point I should have mentioned before - on your sub you will need to set the internal sub XO to Off or Bypass or Defeat or whatever they might call it. If it doesn't have a switch for that, then turn it up to its highest setting - often something like 150Hz. Doing that gets it out of the way for Audyssey. Also, make sure that the phase control on the sub is set to 0.

When I first ran Audyssey with the new sub it went out to -12dB and I pumped it up to -9dB so that is probably going to work out great if I shoot for -5dB. The crossover was going to be my next question because I was reading conflicting material regarding that. I read that you should set the the XO to the middle along with the volume. But you are saying that I should just turn the XO all the way to the max and the 2eq Audyssey will do the rest?

I do like the trim on the speakers, I tried tuning the speakers using an SPL meter and the settings were completely different then Audyssey, but I think Audyssey sounds better. I only have two concerns regarding the trim, my front and center channel speakers are off on the measurement by a foot each. Should I correct this or just leave it alone? Also the surround and surround back speakers are the same speakers, should the XO's set by Audyssey be the same? Currently Audyssey sets the surrounds at 70 and the rears at 90.

Once again thanks a lot, I have my first movie night in my new house with friends coming up and I would love to have the system calibrated correctly.
post #51690 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by fbrault View Post

I've search bat pig guide and the forum but I was not able to find what I'm looking for. I have a Denon AVR-1712 and when I set my system using audyssey auto calibration the sound level is way too low. I always have to raise all channel level by at least 5db. Am I doing something wrong???

What do you mean by too low? There's a volume control to get the level in room to wherever you want it. Raising each channel level by 5 dB is no different from turning up the volume by 5 dB, escept it may impact DynamicEQ and Dynamic Volume, if the receiver has them.
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