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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1732

post #51931 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Thanks. I've found that when watching a movie and switching between Dyn Vol Day and Evening - Day sounds much more louder, crisp, and clear. Maybe I'm performing the wrong tests but I definitely can hear a degradation of sound quality by going with Evening. I'll try again at near reference level.



I thought the "boosts" of Dyn Vol were directly affected by the volume your listening at.



0 being "reference level" on my receiver. So my question is, I'm listening at -15 should the RLO setting math (at -15?)

Lou, read this post and in particular, pay attention to what DEQ does, and then relate to how RLO affects it and see if this clarifies things.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...ostcount=51378


Max
post #51932 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Looks great! Excellent job Keith!


Max

Thanks Max - appreciated.
post #51933 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Totally and completely agree Keith, while in another post today I tried something like suggesting the FAQ to be comprehensive enough to be somewhere between Layman's and a PhD level, well a bit closer to Layman's, nonetheless. I think a bit of reasoning will be more than appreciated by readers of the FAQ.

Agreed.
post #51934 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It may be that the FAQ doesn't properly answer the question of course. Over time, user feedback like Lou99's will be incorporated into the FAQ. In this particular case, I personally can see the answers to his questions in the FAQ as it stands, but if he can't then it's the FAQ that is at fault, not Lou99!

Of course the FAQ isn't intended to answer every query anyone could make, nor to answer in great depth, and as you rightly say, everyone is free to ask a question if they need further elaboration. I've had another go at Lou99's questions but I am still not quite sure what he is asking.

I like the way we can hyperlink directly to the relevant question number in the FAQ - cool eh?

Hyperlink is cool as cool it can be. Like it much!

Now a bit about Q's and A's, especialy regarding DEQ and the need to use it, and why it is made the way it is. I'll try my Layman's hand here.

Let's go back a bit to human hearing principles. We already know that our human hearing is frequency dependent, typically 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz, while the upper roll-off degrads with age. OK. We also know that an amp or a speaker will be able to convey that "flat" response throughout the whole level range from threshold MV setting (say -80 dB) to Ref. level (0 dB) and even above.

Then what's this fuss with DEQ, why does DEQ need to be deployed into the signal path.

It's because of our ears' characteristics. The lower we go down with SPL the more our ears will loose their sensitivity to low and high frequencies. Why? Let's ask Mother Nature. She took care of the phenomena so that at low frequencies we will be excempt from hearing our own heart beat, while at high fequencies we will be released from hearing something called "disordered thermal motion" introduced by atomic/molecular behaviour present as high frequency noise.

Was MN careful enough? I think so! She didn't want to make us go crazy with no sound present from the ambient, only internal (in-body) stuff. Was Audyssey research team comprehensive enough to research such phenomena. I think so again!
post #51935 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Lou, read this post and in particular, pay attention to what DEQ does, and then relate to how RLO affects it and see if this clarifies things.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...ostcount=51378


Max

Max - cheekily assuming your permission, I have added this reply to the FAQ as it does help illuminate the other replies there to DEQ/DV and RLO issues. Fully credited to you of course. There is a lot of confusion over these three and I think every helpful bit of advice we can garner is useful.
post #51936 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

It's because of our ears' characteristics. The lower we go down with SPL the more our ears will loose their sensitivity to low and high frequencies. Why? Let's ask Mother Nature. She took care of the phenomena so that at low frequencies we will be excempt from hearing our own heart beat, while at high fequencies we will be released from hearing something called "disordered thermal motion" introduced by atomic/molecular behaviour present as high frequency noise.

If only Mother Nature had given us a cure for the constant 15Khz tone present in my left ear (tinnitus)! Fortunately, its SPL isn't too high and I can usually ignore it. An unfortunate byproduct of my headbanging days, many years ago
post #51937 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Max - cheekily assuming your permission, I have added this reply to the FAQ as it does help illuminate the other replies there to DEQ/DV and RLO issues. Fully credited to you of course. There is a lot of confusion over these three and I think every helpful bit of advice we can garner is useful.

Absolutely. I'm glad you decided to take the time to compile all the info in one easy to find location.


Max
post #51938 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


Then what's this fuss with DEQ, why does DEQ need to be deployed into the signal path.

It's because of our ears' characteristics. The lower we go down with SPL the more our ears will loose their sensitivity to low and high frequencies. Why? Let's ask Mother Nature. She took care of the phenomena so that at low frequencies we will be excempt from hearing our own heart beat, while at high fequencies we will be released from hearing something called "disordered thermal motion" introduced by atomic/molecular behaviour present as high frequency noise.

I know that is what Audyssey's sales pitch says, but all that DEQ does for me, is make dialog harder to hear because bass and surround levels dominate the sound field. I like Audyssey Room EQ and what it has done with my sound, but its DEQ is something I want no part of.................Just because Audyssey says it, it doesn't make it so!
post #51939 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

I'm not sure why you're concerned about the L speaker not being able to 'see' the LW speaker. The LW speaker is simulating a wide reflection from the front speakers. It doesn't need to have a line of sight to them. As long as the speakers have a direct line of sight to you, that's the important part. It doesn't matter much if the speakers don't have a direct line of sight to any other speaker.
Max

The reason I wondered was:
1. Since you said you had strange sound artefacts in non sym speaker placement I figured it might be a problem for audyssey to calculate the audio for the wide speaker that is supposed to even out the left speaker room reflections since the left speaker reflections will go mostly into the oven and the wide speaker is placed further away than the oven.
Of course audyssey does not know I have an oven bouncing back the audio from the L speaker, but I guess I wanted to make sure the oven that will prevent the audio from the L spekar to reach the wall behind the WIDE speaker would not mess up the WIDE function which is removing the unvwanted room reflections for the L speaker.
But if it is not an issue its all good

Thx
Boogie
post #51940 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Since you are about to make changes anyway (new screen, new pre-pro), any possibility of turning the set-up 180 degrees (to lessen restrictions from the doors)?

Also, are you willing to re-allocate your speaker resources? Your current plan has a full 7 of your 9 speakers in front of the listener, leaving only 2 speakers to cover the entire surround field. Any possibility of using 5 speakers up front and 4 in the surround field?

I can not turn the equipment since on the other side of the wall I have two windos (drew in the window benches only in the pic) and audio wise it is best to have the short wall for the front system (and I also have windows on the right wall as u can see)

Today I have 7.1 and even though the two rears make some use according to audyssey the order of improvment is:
1. Wide
2. High
3. Extra rears

So to get the most out of the possible 9.1 (amp can not do 11.1 or I would go for that) I chose wide and high

Thx for the comment though
Boogie
post #51941 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Of course! Theory is great but putting rubber to the road is where the fun is to be had. Sometimes the measurements don't correlate well with the theory...

If you have measuring gear you could also measure the impulse response at each distance and correlate that with the Audyssey behavior.

Will do. I'm going to be away for 8 days so won't get to this until late in the month, but will do it.

I don't have measuring equipment beyond the pro kit but that will give us the basics of distance/delay and amplitude setting, at least for my zero delay subs. If two subs have equal delay the results should be similar, just at longer distances. With different subs one would need to establish the delay on each one and factor that in.

Harrison
post #51942 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

I know that is what Audyssey's sales pitch says, but all that DEQ does for me, is make dialog harder to hear because bass and surround levels dominate the sound field. I like Audyssey Room EQ and what it has done with my sound, but its DEQ is something I want no part of.................Just because Audyssey says it, it doesn't make it so!

You see, this is why you have to come to the right place D Bone. Once you change your attitude and start to think that something might be off in your own setup you will no longer think all that jazz is nothing else but Audyssey sales pitch. DEQ works pretty fine for the most of us, so why not join the bandwagon of satisfied endusers. How? With a little troubleshooting of your system.

Care to share your setup in details? Sending a couple of photos of your room setup will help members here to analyze problems you may possibly have.
post #51943 of 70910
Sorry Feri, I just don't like DEQ. Nothing wrong with my system lol. Like I said, I like Audyssey, as it has made a big impact on my system, especially in bass response, but DEQ is not for me.............. If I want boosted surrounds and sub levels, I know where the trim settings are, and I'll crank them up accordingly!
post #51944 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

I know that is what Audyssey's sales pitch says, but all that DEQ does for me, is make dialog harder to hear because bass and surround levels dominate the sound field. I like Audyssey Room EQ and what it has done with my sound, but its DEQ is something I want no part of.................Just because Audyssey says it, it doesn't make it so!

Interesting. DEQ shouldn't really be boosting the bass and surrounds so much that it drowns out your centre channel. It suggests there's something amiss somewhere. It also suggests that if you turned the MV up to reference (0dB) you wouldn't be able to hear dialogue properly either, because at reference DEQ doesn't apply any boost at all. Have you tried a Reference Level Offset to tame the boost to bass and surrounds? I am assuming you're not also using Dynamic Volume or Dolby Volume etc as well?

Problems with dialogue clarity are mentioned in the FAQ - does anything there sound like it could apply to your room?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...count=51803#22
post #51945 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Interesting. DEQ shouldn't really be boosting the bass and surrounds so much that it drowns out your centre channel. It suggests there's something amiss somewhere. It also suggests that if you turned the MV up to reference (0dB) you wouldn't be able to hear dialogue properly either, because at reference DEQ doesn’t apply any boost at all. Have you tried a Reference Level Offset to tame the boost to bass and surrounds? I am assuming you're not also using Dynamic Volume or Dolby Volume etc as well?

Problems with dialogue clarity are mentioned in the FAQ - does anything there sound like it could apply to your room?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...count=51803#22


My system is on 100% of the time for TV, BD, DVD & Xbox. When we watch TV at -25dbish with DEQ engaged, the dialog stays the same, but the sub and surrounds are raised making for a very unbalanced feel. The closer I get to 0db, the better it sounds as the surrounds and sub come back into balance, but since we watch TV at much lower levels, this is when it bothers me.
post #51946 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

Sorry Feri, I just don't like DEQ. Nothing wrong with my system lol. Like I said, I like Audyssey, as it has made a big impact on my system, especially in bass response, but DEQ is not for me.............. If I want boosted surrounds and sub levels, I know where the trim settings are, and I'll crank them up accordingly!

D Bone, you're not gonna get away from DEQ that easily. Whaddaya mean by saying you want boosted surrounds and sub levels? At what MV setting are to trying to satisfy your dislike of Audyssey DEQ. I feel some unintended use of Audyssey features on your side. Cranking up trims seems to me to be another case of "unintended use".

Be with it! If you're satisfied then you need not come to spread news on such activity. This theard is not about unintended use.

Take care and enjoy "as is"!
post #51947 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

My system is on 100% of the time for TV, BD, DVD & Xbox. When we watch TV at -25dbish with DEQ engaged, the dialog stays the same, but the sub and surrounds are raised making for a very unbalanced feel. The closer I get to 0db, the better it sounds as the surrounds and sub come back into balance, but since we watch TV at much lower levels, this is when it bothers me.

You're supposed to use a RLO of 10dB for TV content as that is usually mixed at 10 dB below film reference.. See the FAQ: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...count=51803#25
post #51948 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

D Bone, you're not gonna get away from DEQ that easily. Whaddaya mean by saying you want boosted surrounds and sub levels? At what MV setting are to trying to satisfy your dislike of Audyssey. I feel some unintended use of Audyssey features on your side. Cranking up trims seems to me to be another case of "unintended use".

Be with it! If you're satisfied then you need not come to spread news on such activity. This theard is not about unintended use.

Take care and enjoy "as is"!


^^^^Check out my reply above you. -25dbish is where it does too much boosting, and becomes out of balance.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You're supposed to use a RLO of 10dB for TV content. See the FAQ: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...count=51803#25

I know, but I still just don't think it sounds as good as defeated.
post #51949 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Absolutely. I'm glad you decided to take the time to compile all the info in one easy to find location.

Max

Thanks Max. I intend to make it as easy as possible to use the FAQ as time goes on. At some stage, when it is a lot more mature, I'll rearrange the FAQs into proper groups - mic placement, DEQ etc, room issues, sub issues etc, all hyperlinked from the top of the page by group first and then topic within the group. I realised today that it was essential to hyperlink the questions, even when there were only 20 or so, as it was getting difficult to find the right Q and A easily.
post #51950 of 70910
hello all! i've just jumped in and ordered an svs sb13-plus (sealed sub with 13-inch driver) and am pumped about getting it and setting it up. i'm currently using a hsu vtf3-HO (about five years old now), and wanted to try out a sealed sub. i have a descent-sized room (22x19x9, open on one side to an even larger kitchen and eating area) and may need to add another one, but figured i'd just try one and if i overall don't like it, then the return shipping won't be as bad (although i'm really thinking i'm going to love it!). anyway, the set-up seems a little more involved than what i'm used to. i was searching for some thoughts on where to start with the set-up. this sub is smaller and more attractive and i may have better placement options, so i do understand the importance of that, but mostly wondering about the peq and such. i'm running paradigm studio 60v5 fronts, cc-590 center, studio 10 rears off of an integra 70.2 and using the audyssey xt32. do i bother w/ anything on the sub besides the gain/volume and phase, and let xt32 do it' job? or do i peq with the sub (although unsure how to do this) and then run audyssey? thanks for any help/advice. posting here b/c you know audyssey the best, but may also post in svs forum.
post #51951 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by rushwj View Post

hello all! i've just jumped in and ordered an svs sb13-plus (sealed sub with 13-inch driver) and am pumped about getting it and setting it up. i'm currently using a hsu vtf3-HO (about five years old now), and wanted to try out a sealed sub. i have a descent-sized room (22x19x9, open on one side to an even larger kitchen and eating area) and may need to add another one, but figured i'd just try one and if i overall don't like it, then the return shipping won't be as bad (although i'm really thinking i'm going to love it!). anyway, the set-up seems a little more involved than what i'm used to. i was searching for some thoughts on where to start with the set-up. this sub is smaller and more attractive and i may have better placement options, so i do understand the importance of that, but mostly wondering about the peq and such. i'm running paradigm studio 60v5 fronts, cc-590 center, studio 10 rears off of an integra 70.2 and using the audyssey xt32. do i bother w/ anything on the sub besides the gain/volume and phase, and let xt32 do it' job? or do i peq with the sub (although unsure how to do this) and then run audyssey? thanks for any help/advice. posting here b/c you know audyssey the best, but may also post in svs forum.

This is dealt with in the Audyssey FAQ Linked Here

See these specific posts:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...count=51803#f3

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...count=51803#f4

If you are thinking of running two subs, see here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...count=51803#f2
post #51952 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Bone View Post

I know, but I still just don't think it sounds as good as defeated.

If you are happy with the sound when DEQ is defeated, then you are good to go. Case closed
post #51953 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks Max. I intend to make it as easy as possible to use the FAQ as time goes on. At some stage, when it is a lot more mature, I'll rearrange the FAQs into proper groups - mic placement, DEQ etc, room issues, sub issues etc, all hyperlinked from the top of the page by group first and then topic within the group. I realised today that it was essential to hyperlink the questions, even when there were only 20 or so, as it was getting difficult to find the right Q and A easily.

Yes, the hyperlinks make it much neater and easier for the users.


Max
post #51954 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

FAQ updated. Now with hyperlinks.

Jumpto!
post #51955 of 70910
That is awesome Keith! It's great to see the FAQ in action. Just read the hyperlinks and the info is spot on!
post #51956 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

That is awesome Keith! It's great to see the FAQ in action. Just read the hyperlinks and the info is spot on!

Thanks Gooddoc. I'm quite hopeful that it will prove to be a useful asset to the thread. There's a lot to do to it still, and a lot more questions to add, but I think we may well have something that is pretty useable by this time next week. And, with feedback from the reactions of the users it helps (or doesn't help as the case may be) it should gradually evolve into a quite sophisticated aide, I hope. We shall see.
post #51957 of 70910
Keith,

The FAQ is really coming through. AWESOME work!!!


edit: Hope you don't mind me adding it to my sig...
post #51958 of 70910
Read the faq but just wanna be sure. I have a glass table in front of my mlp. Should it be removed before I run audyssey?
post #51959 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Read the faq but just wanna be sure. I have a glass table in front of my mlp. Should it be removed before I run audyssey?



Good question and one that I will add to the FAQ. The general advice is that anything that will be in the room when listening should be in the room when measuring. As you've read, glass tables between the speakers and the MLP can cause problems. You might want to cover the table with a thick towel or blanket during measuring. Then once your calibration is complete try listening with the blanket still in place and then with it removed and evaluate any difference it makes. If you're lucky, the difference will be slight. If not, then you will know what problems the table is causing and can decide what to do about it, WAF permitting.

EDIT: This question, plus one related one, now added to FAQ: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...count=51803#a5
post #51960 of 70910
MAJOR FAQ UPDATE.

Now created sections to group relevant issues together. All fully hyperlinked.

This should make the FAQ much easier to navigate and for people to find the information they are looking for quickly and easily.

I have checked the hyperlinks but please report any broken ones.


EDIT: three new questions also added (two in section A, 1 in Section E).
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