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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1791

post #53701 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'd like the sketch, pretty please, Harrison...

Heh, it wasn't as simple as I had envisioned. But, I gave it a whirl. Because it took several slides and might get longer, I put it in a PDF. It's accessible here:

http://www.hkclark.com/Group Delay vs Sub Distance.pdf

I stopped short of trying to explain why group delay is undesirable (IMHO). But, that could be done in a couple of additional slides.

Let me know if there are any questions.
post #53702 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


P.S. How was your listening test for the 60 Hz dip Jerry?

Sorry, Feri, I ran out of time and didn't get to conduct this test. It's still on my to-do list.
post #53703 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

You (and others) by-passed the author's point with this needless side issue of terminology.

You're funny! After all, why bother using the right terms for things? Utterly needless! When I say 'inductance' I really mean 'resistance' and when I say 'resistance' I really mean 'capacitance'. Yes, let's try that eh? LOL!

I know I said I had posted my last word on this pointless and irrelevant topic, but your remark is so inane that I can't let it pass. I promise this really is my last word on the subject.
post #53704 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I think I understand. Group delay is a measure of "packet" amplitude that looks at signal time delays that vary with frequency, result in phase changes, and are caused by the DUT. Variable phase delay is a measure of phase change that also varies with frequency but with a constant time delay.
Both cause a phase change but by different causes.
Thanks for the explanation, I never understood the group delay vs phase delay issue since they're both interrelated.

Yes, I think you've got it. It is tricky. I think the critical thing is the "time" or "timing" that Chris K often brings up. Time and phase are two very different things and are not interchangeable.

You can compare the phase of two sine waves ..... if they are at the same frequency. For instance, you can compare the phase of an 80 Hz sine wave produced by the main and one produced by the sub. That is the essence of sub-main alignment.

But, when we talk about two different frequencies, the word "phase" is never applicable. Over time two different frequencies will never be "in phase" because they have different wavelengths. The peaks or zero crossings might line up now and then, but that's not the same as being "in phase." They have to have the same wavelength and hence the same frequency to have a phase relationship.

Group delay involves the "time" relationship of two waves of different frequencies. Whether it's a main or a sub, the group delay gets significant at lower frequencies. It does not matter whether the speaker has electronics (analog or digital) associated with it, there is group delay. It involves the enclosure. Lower frequencies are delayed in time relative to higher frequencies by as much as a wavelength of the lower frequency.

Group delay is always measured in milliseconds because it is a time issue.

I used to use a speaker cabinet design tool called WinISD that could plot group delay. I'll see if it is still available and dig up a plot if it is.

EDIT

WinISD is still out there. Here is the group delay for a 15" Dayton RSS390-HF driver in a 3.6 cu ft box with and without a port (the lower curve is for the sealed box). Even with a port the group delay isn't all that bad. My previous sub was far worse, over 25ms at 20Hz (isobaric 15" drivers in an 11 cu ft box with base extension tuning).

http://www.hkclark.com/GroupDelay.JPG
post #53705 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

Heh, it wasn't as simple as I had envisioned. But, I gave it a whirl. Because it took several slides and might get longer, I put it in a PDF. It's accessible here:

http://www.hkclark.com/Group Delay vs Sub Distance.pdf

I stopped short of trying to explain why group delay is undesirable (IMHO). But, that could be done in a couple of additional slides.

Let me know if there are any questions.

Brilliant! Amazing how much clearer things are with the diagrams to look at. Thanks, Harrison for taking the time.
post #53706 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You're funny! After all, why bother using the right terms for things? Utterly needless! When I say 'inductance' I really mean 'resistance' and when I say 'resistance' I really mean 'capacitance'. Yes, let's try that eh? LOL!

I know I said I had posted my last word on this pointless and irrelevant topic, but your remark is so inane that I can't let it pass. I promise this really is my last word on the subject.

OK, I'm taking bets on that.
post #53707 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

OK, I'm taking bets on that.

When I say 'last word' I mean 'first of many more posts' of course Terms are interchangeable for JPC so he'll surely understand.

I'd keep your money in your pocket though, Jeff. I do mean it wrt to JPC.
post #53708 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Brilliant! Amazing how much clearer things are with the diagrams to look at. Thanks, Harrison for taking the time.

I added this example of group delay to my earlier post re sub alignment and group delay. It's not a very good example; I've seen far worse group delay. Vertical axis is ms and horizontal is frequency in Hz.

http://www.hkclark.com/GroupDelay.JPG
post #53709 of 70910
Hi to All,

While reading/surfing into other threads I've recently experienced that an increasing number of members have started to complain about the Denon 4311 applying treble boost and while the "standard" calm down and read the FAQ still didn't put the issue to rest I have a feeling there is "something in the air".

Myself is not an owner of a 4311, so I need to ask. Was there a recent firmware upgrade for this Denon model you might have downloaded? We all know such updates are there to address and fix known problems, while sometimes it can happen that other unknown problems are introduced by the same firmware upgrade that are to be next addressed by another firmware update afterward, yet once revealed.

Since this is the official Audyssey thread it might be worth to collect same or similar experiences of 4311 owners and then jointly make a report to Audyssey officials asking them to investigate the case.

Chime in please if you are a party to the case.
post #53710 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi to All,

While reading/surfing into other threads I've recently experienced that an increasing number of members have started to complain about the Denon 4311 applying treble boost and while the "standard" calm down and read the FAQ still didn't put the issue to rest I have a feeling there is "something in the air".

Myself is not an owner of a 4311, so I need to ask. Was there a recent firmware upgrade for this Denon model you might have downloaded? We all know such updates are there to address and fix known problems, while sometimes it can happen that other unknown problems are introduced by the same firmware upgrade that are to be next addressed by another firmware update afterward, yet once revealed.

Since this is the official Audyssey thread it might be worth to collect same or similar experiences of 4311 owners and then jointly make a report to Audyssey officials asking them to investigate the case.

Chime in please if you are a party to the case.

I haven't noticed a problem with my 4311. I did a firmware update about two months ago, but that was right after I got it so that might not have been a recently issued firmware update.

There used to be a thread that tracked Denon updates. I wonder if it's still being maintained.
post #53711 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi to All,

While reading/surfing into other threads I've recently experienced that an increasing number of members have started to complain about the Denon 4311 applying treble boost and while the "standard" calm down and read the FAQ still didn't put the issue to rest I have a feeling there is "something in the air".

Myself is not an owner of a 4311, so I need to ask. Was there a recent firmware upgrade for this Denon model you might have downloaded? We all know such updates are there to address and fix known problems, while sometimes it can happen that other unknown problems are introduced by the same firmware upgrade that are to be next addressed by another firmware update afterward, yet once revealed.

Since this is the official Audyssey thread it might be worth to collect same or similar experiences of 4311 owners and then jointly make a report to Audyssey officials asking them to investigate the case.

Chime in please if you are a party to the case.

Feri, there have been a few posters that have reported this issue, but the number is quite low. The overwhelming majority of 4311 owners are not reporting this issue. There have been no firmware updates for quite some time, so firmware is not to likely the cause. I suspect other factors are at play here, and we attempt to help posters reporting the issue to isolate root cause. I don't see any cause for alarm.
post #53712 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

No - the first position is the most important because Audyssey sets levels and distances from that. I suggest you read the Audyssey 101 in the FAQ:

** First Time Audyssey User? Follow This Audyssey 101! **



There are several parts of the FAQ that may help you. This particular issue is covered here:

3. Where should I position the mic for best results? (click here)




Were your rear surrounds positioned properly? Side surrounds are best at 90 degrees to 110 degrees from the MLP and rear surrounds directly behind with some distance between the MLP and the speakers. On both Dolby and Audyssey's websites there are charts showing ideal speaker locations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

Most of the time you aren't really supposed to notice them.



I wouldn't want to be without mine, which are effective and only disturbing when they are supposed to be.

Thanks for help fellas. I guess I just got a bit confused reading the pdf version and the Audyssey 101. I'll just start at the listening position and go from there.

I already took away the surround back speakers, and the wife already vetoed trying them again.
post #53713 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi to All,

While reading/surfing into other threads I've recently experienced that an increasing number of members have started to complain about the Denon 4311 applying treble boost and while the "standard" calm down and read the FAQ still didn't put the issue to rest I have a feeling there is "something in the air".

Myself is not an owner of a 4311, so I need to ask. Was there a recent firmware upgrade for this Denon model you might have downloaded? We all know such updates are there to address and fix known problems, while sometimes it can happen that other unknown problems are introduced by the same firmware upgrade that are to be next addressed by another firmware update afterward, yet once revealed.

Since this is the official Audyssey thread it might be worth to collect same or similar experiences of 4311 owners and then jointly make a report to Audyssey officials asking them to investigate the case.

Chime in please if you are a party to the case.

I have the boosted highs with my 4311. I have been through troubleshooting with Audyssey some time ago and Chris does not feel its a problem with Audyssey or the 4311. That's the official verdict, no sense in dredging it up again. I have my own theory, but it is backed up by only one data point - me. So I'll just leave it there.

I just don't enable Audyssey anymore when I listen to movies at reference and until Audyssey Pro enables a way to select an upper frequency range to cutoff correction, that's how it will stay.
post #53714 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

When I say 'last word' I mean 'first of many more posts' of course Terms are interchangeable for JPC so he'll surely understand.

I'd keep your money in your pocket though, Jeff. I do mean it wrt to JPC.



The original topic that got sidetracked by the children here is that the LFE channel "crossover" setting may be properly set anywhere in the 80 to 120 Hz area. There seems to be some evidence that THX recommends an 80 Hz setting for the LFE channel filter.
post #53715 of 70910
Is there anything special about a mic stand? Or can I use a different stand?
post #53716 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi to All,

While reading/surfing into other threads I've recently experienced that an increasing number of members have started to complain about the Denon 4311 applying treble boost and while the "standard" calm down and read the FAQ still didn't put the issue to rest I have a feeling there is "something in the air".

Chime in please if you are a party to the case.


I've owned a 4311 since late 2010, and had problems with the "boosted highs" when I first ran Audyssey. After communicating with Chris at Audyssey, he sent me a new mic. That solved the problem. I imagine I've had just about every version of the Denon firmware on my 4311. None affected Audyssey calibrations, so I don't believe there is any intrinsic issue with the 4311 and "boosted highs."

Bad microphones just may be more prevalent than people think. The mic may also be more fragile (susceptible to static electricity, humidity, or other factors) than people think. If the mic isn't bad, then any "boosted highs" after an Audyssey calibration with a 4311 probably are due to not following the calibration process properly.
post #53717 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRS3 View Post

If the mic isn't bad, then any "boosted highs" after an Audyssey calibration with a 4311 probably are due to not following the calibration process properly.

True in many instances, but not all. Although I do understand the tendency to blame any problems on user error. Bottom line, however, is that I don't believe my issue is intrinsic to the 4311. Could be, but I guess I won't know until I get a new AVR.
post #53718 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

Is there anything special about a mic stand? Or can I use a different stand?

The FAQ has some useful information about mic stands, and some useful links:

1. Do I really need to put the Audyssey mic on a tripod or stand? (click here)
post #53719 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The FAQ has some useful information about mic stands, and some useful links:

1. Do I really need to put the Audyssey mic on a tripod or stand? (click here)

I wasn't planning on just putting it on my chair or on a desk or something like that.

What I was thinking about using was a tripod that has and extended arm, and heck the mic actually screws right into it. I already have it, otherwise I am waiting on my friend to borrow the mic stand from. Maybe I will try it with what I have then when I get the stand try it with that.
post #53720 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


True in many instances, but not all. Although I do understand the tendency to blame any problems on user error. Bottom line, however, is that I don't believe my issue is intrinsic to the 4311. Could be, but I guess I won't know until I get a new AVR.

I agree with you; many on this thread are quick to blame the user. I had very harsh HF with my 4311 the first few times I ran auto setup. My speaker placement may be less than ideal, so I think I have to trick audyssey by raising the mic position well above ear height and closer to tweeter height. The tweeters on my mains are a few inches higher, tweeters on surrounds are a few feet higher than ear height. I am much happier with the HF now.
post #53721 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

I wasn't planning on just putting it on my chair or on a desk or something like that.

What I was thinking about using was a tripod that has and extended arm, and heck the mic actually screws right into it. I already have it, otherwise I am waiting on my friend to borrow the mic stand from. Maybe I will try it with what I have then when I get the stand try it with that.

A tripod is Ok, but usually a lot more difficult to use, and usually entails at least one leg being on a chair at some stage. But if yours has an extended arm, you are probably good to go. It's not ideal to have a large platform (head) under the mic though as it can cause spurious reflections. My personal view has always been that as a decent boom mic stand costs only around $20, why not use one? It's probably going to be the cheapest component in your entire system And it will last a lifetime - you'll never get upgradeitis on a mic stand LOL!
post #53722 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by niualaals94 View Post

i did a search but couldn't find a difinitive answer,does anyone know for sure if on my onkyo 805 when listening to music in pure audio is audyssey being used.its sounds like it but im not sure,i also didnt think to check led till right now.

pure mode - no audyssey and bass management
post #53723 of 70910
Audyssey success story:

After reading thru some of this thread and the FAQs, it turned out that I had done everything wrong before. I had set the mic on a pillow, changed levels, had sub turned all the way up, only used 3 positions, etc.

I have an Onkyo 706, so it let me do 6 positions total. I did everything right this time(at least as much as I've read). I used a tripod, used all 6 positions, turned the sub to down and didn't change any of it's settings (not even cross overs at this point which I will probably leave alone as well). So far it sounds even clearer than it did before. It seems that the surround separation and panning is even better. Basically, I can hear even more of the little things and it just sounds better all around. Thanks everyone for the info.
post #53724 of 70910
Hi all, I have a Onkyo 818 with XT32 on pre-order. I have never used Audyssey before but I hear about people having issues with the high frequencies being boosted.

My question is, after Audyssey is done, can I tweak the EQ or sub settings?
post #53725 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNICRON-WMD View Post

Hi all, I have a Onkyo 818 with XT32 on pre-order. I have never used Audyssey before but I hear about people having issues with the high frequencies being boosted.

My question is, after Audyssey is done, can I tweak the EQ or sub settings?

You can but do not worry about it. This with Denon units and the issue seems be very infrequent. Xt 32 is very good . Enjoy your unit
post #53726 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post


I have the boosted highs with my 4311. I have been through troubleshooting with Audyssey some time ago and Chris does not feel its a problem with Audyssey or the 4311. That's the official verdict, no sense in dredging it up again. I have my own theory, but it is backed up by only one data point - me. So I'll just leave it there.

I just don't enable Audyssey anymore when I listen to movies at reference and until Audyssey Pro enables a way to select an upper frequency range to cutoff correction, that's how it will stay.

What is your theory as to why it's occurring?

You haven't been able to tame the harshness even with Pro? Does that imply its not a frequency response problem but something else? Does it only occur at reference, or at all volumes?

Agree with being able to limit corrections above a chosen frequency, or at least some greater intelligence about EQing HF beyond a reasonable threshold (ie -3db point), like is done on the low side of the spectrum. They clearly have that exclusion logic available.

Those of us who weren't around the first time are interested in the dredging.
post #53727 of 70910
Could it be a mic issue or a mic calibration file issue . This happened in a onkyo firmware update that was subsequently fixed. Kal reported on it in stereophile.
post #53728 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by timofree View Post

...many on this thread are quick to blame the user.

It's not a matter of "blaming the user." It's just that it seems, more often than not, that the user has made a mistake in setting up his/her system, unknowingly has one or more burned out tweeters, or isn't fully following the Audyssey setup instructions.

Everyone makes mistakes with their audio-video systems. I've certainly made my share of them. I don't think that makes me less of a man.

"User error" is good, because it usually can be easily fixed by the user himself. Especially, with all the great people on this thread who are more than willing to help you chase down your problem. User error sure beats "my firmware is bad," or "my receiver is broken," or "my microphone is defective." In those cases (when they're correct), you're dependent on your receiver manufacturer or Audyssey to fix your problem. You can straighten things out a lot faster with "user error."

So, embrace user error. It can be a good thing.
post #53729 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by LRS3 View Post

It's not a matter of "blaming the user." It's just that it seems, more often than not, that the user has made a mistake in setting up his/her system, unknowingly has one or more burned out tweeters, or isn't fully following the Audyssey setup instructions.

Everyone makes mistakes with their audio-video systems. I've certainly made my share of them. I don't think that makes me less of a man.

"User error" is good, because it usually can be easily fixed by the user himself. Especially, with all the great people on this thread who are more than willing to help you chase down your problem. User error sure beats "my firmware is bad," or "my receiver is broken," or "my microphone is defective." In those cases (when they're correct), you're dependent on your receiver manufacturer or Audyssey to fix your problem. You can straighten things out a lot faster with "user error."

So, embrace user error. It can be a good thing.

Had the new mic sent by Audyssey not fixed your boosted highs, would you still feel this way?

A very small percentage of folks are having this issue despite new mics, following the guide, etc. I was one of them, but luckily for me it was "user error" in the sense I thought Audyssey was a one-target-curve-fits-all solution when it turns out it isn't. Until I discovered that, I was getting pretty frustrated with well-intentioned folks telling me that I was doing something wrong in my setup when I was not. Especially when 99% of the folks here rave about how great Audyssey sounds, and you so badly want it to sound great too, but for some unknown reason it just won't. Can you understand how that would get frustrating after awhile? ;-)

A bad mic is no-brainer solution #2 (behind follow-the-setup-guide-to-the-letter which is solution #1). Once those two options are exhausted, along with ruling out faulty A/V equipment, that's where the *real* troubleshooting adventures begin! I think that's the point of the posters, is that once you get past the fairly obvious answers, the available help really drops off, from the forum or from Audyssey itself. In those cases, a rehash of solution #1 over and over becomes counterproductive and outside the box solutions are what's really sought... ;-)

Otherwise, AVRs get returned like we just saw on the 4311ci owner's thread a few days ago for this very reason. "Incompatibility" was cited, and may very well exist with certain loudspeaker performance characteristics. We will never know, however, for the reasons cited above. Another chance to "improve" the algorithm through a real-world use case lost forever. :-(
post #53730 of 70910
Well, it's unfortunate that you feel that neither Chris nor the folks on this thread have been able to help you. From my personal experience and observing the experiences of many on this thread, Chris spends an amazing amount of time helping out individual users with their Audyssey problems. It's really quite extraordinary that a man in his position does this. Based on the equipment I've owned, the only two A/V companies that provide anything close to this level of individual customer service are Sonos and Oppo.

Maybe you should give us another try?
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