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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 181

post #5401 of 70906
Another take from me:

I usually have the sub's volume at about 10%, then run the first position. Then I let Audyssey calculate, and check the settings.

If my distances are correct, and all looks good, I look at the speaker trims. If the sub is way lower than the rest, I turn it up a bit, and start over.
Do this until the subwoofer trim is at a few negative dB, and THEN leave it alone, do all measurements and let Audyssey work some magic in all your positions. Takes a little time, but leaves out the guesswork.
post #5402 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerHarley View Post

I thought I read that the Sub's volume should be set at 1/2 of max (1-10 scale= 5 setting)

On the 1-10 what is considered just above minimum.

Also are you saying to go into the receiver and adjust the SW setting,,,Well please explain some %#s.

I thought if you monkey around with the settings audyssey set, it would disable it or screw it up ...

Please 101 me on the SW part so I can get it right this time.

HH

I am trying to figure out the proper methodology and then adjust the text so that it is clear.

Sorry for the confusion.

Mark
post #5403 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by atledreier View Post

Another take from me:

I usually have the sub's volume at about 10%, then run the first position. Then I let Audyssey calculate, and check the settings.

If my distances are correct, and all looks good, I look at the speaker trims. If the sub is way lower than the rest, I turn it up a bit, and start over.
Do this until the subwoofer trim is at a few negative dB, and THEN leave it alone, do all measurements and let Audyssey work some magic in all your positions. Takes a little time, but leaves out the guesswork.

Thanks for your input. Your methodology makes sense to me.

Mark
post #5404 of 70906
Edit: 31 July 08: This project is ongoing. To limit confusion, I will posting the most current text on the most currrent page of the thread until we have determined that it is "sufficient" and everyone has had a chance to contribute, if so desired. FYIO: I use the default setting of 30 posts per page.

Mark
post #5405 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Thanks everyone for their input thus far. I decided to re-post the draft text on this page. I have modified the subwoofer volume setting text. Please let me know what you think. I also modified the two postings on the previous page that the subwoofer volume setting text was being modified.

Audyssey Tips & Tricks

A compilation of information from AVS Forum's Official Audyssey thread and the Audyssey web site.

I. Room Setup
A. Lower the noise floor of the room (<45dBA) by turning off the HVAC system, projector, etc.

II. Microphone Setup
A. Use the microphone that came with the unit.
B. Mount the microphone on a tripod.
C. Place the microphone at seated ear height.
D. If the seat back is higher than your head, ensure the microphone is above the seat back.
1. If the seat back is a few inches behind the microphone, this will cause additional reflections.
E. Point the microphone at the ceiling.
F. Place microphone in the primary listening position for the first measurement.
G. If your seating is within 12-18 inches of a room boundary, ensure the microphone is placed at least 2 feet from the wall.

III. Subwoofer Setup
A. Determine the optimal placement of the sub within your room. (location, location, location)
B. Defeat the low-pass filter, if possible.
1. Defeating this filter will result in more accurate subwoofer distance measurements.
2. If this filter cannot be defeated, set it to the highest frequency allowed.
C. Properly set the volume level, polarization, and phase (if applicable).
1. Set the volume level just above minimum, around 10% of the adjustment range allowed.
2. Run the calibration from the first microphone position, and let Audyssey calculate.
3. If the subwoofer distance is correct, look at the subwoofer trim levels.
4. If the subwoofer trim level is a large positive number, turn up the subwoofer volume a bit and repeat step #2
5. The goal is to obtain a subwoofer trim level close to 0 decibels.
D. Ensure the sub(s) are at least 3-5 from the wall.
1. Reverberating walls may result in inaccurate subwoofer distance measurements.
E. If the sub has an EQ system, use it to tame big peaks before running Audyssey.
1. Velodyne's SMS and JL Audio's ARO are two examples of EQ software.

IV. Dual (mono) Subwoofer Setup
A. Place the subwoofers symmetrically within the room.
B. Place the subwoofers at identical distances from the primary listening position.
1. If this is not possible, enter the average of the two distance measurements.
C. Follow the steps in subwoofer setup (above) for each subwoofer.

V. Microphone Placement (Measurement Positions)
A. Use the maximum amount of measurement positions allowed by the Audyssey version.
B. When calibrating only a primary listening position with eight measurements, use the recommended placement methodology pictured below.
1. If you are not able to see the below picture, it is located at: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...7&d=1216286791




VI. During Calibration
A. Do not make any sudden noises.
B. Do not stand in between the speaker and the microphone.
C. If a phase warning is reported, check the speaker wiring, and continue with the calibration.

VII. After Calibration
A. Modify the speaker crossover settings as desired.
1. Setting the speakers to Small with a 60Hz - 80Hz crossover is a good starting point.
B. Change the crossover of the LFE subwoofer to 120Hz, if possible.
C. Modify the speaker distance settings (excluding the subwoofer) if they were not measured accurately.
D. Do not change the distance of the subwoofer, because the subwoofer / satellite speaker blend is based on the time delay of this measurement.
1. Inaccurate subwoofer distance measurements usually occur when the subwoofer's Low-Pass Filter is not turned off; some subwoofers do not have the option to turn it off.
E. Select one of the target curves created by Audyssey.
1. The Flat curve should be used when THX post-processing is on.
2. The Reference curve should be used when THX post-processing is off.

VIII. For The Tweakers
A. Check the results with an SPL meter and calibration discs.
1. The internal test tones will not be accurate because all post-processing is bypassed.

If Chris puts his seal of approval on this then I'm gonna have to get to work.

HH
post #5406 of 70906
No, it has been consistently stated sub level should be set around halfway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

You should set the sub volume to the half-way point and the frequency knob all the way up to the highest frequency.

Chris
post #5407 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Wherever I sit.

Yup. Bass is pretty omnidirectional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronco70 View Post

Kal,

You are about to confuse people now.

I hope not.
Comment #1: The sweet spot is where the primary listener/viewer sits. In my systems, it is where I sit. I would think that the guy who asked would be able to translate that into a choice.

Comment #2: How is that confusing? The wavelengths of sub signals are so long (14feet at 80Hz and longer as you go down) that they radiate relatively unaffected by the box dimensions/surfaces.
post #5408 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

No, it has been consistently stated sub level should be set around halfway.

One thing I have learned definitively in my personal experience is that making blanket statements about sub level is unwise at best. I have a Velodyne sub, and followed the recommendation of sub level at half based on the recommendations on this board. It lead to issues with the sub (well documented on the Velodyne support thread) that nearly had me sending the sub in for unnecessary repairs. Bottom line is: Audyssey treats all subs as if they are the same, and they simply are not. This is NOT a criticism of Audyssey, nor the beginning of a flame war about sub manufacturers. It's simply a warning that telling everyone to set their sub level exactly the same before running Audyssey will lead some users down the wrong path just like it did to me.

Hope this helps somebody.
post #5409 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

No, it has been consistently stated sub level should be set around halfway.

OK, so what do you think of this modification?.

1. Set the volume control on the subwoofer at the middle of the adjustment range allowed.
2. Run the calibration from the first microphone position, and let Audyssey calculate.
3. If the subwoofer distance is correct, look at the subwoofer trim levels.
a. If the subwoofer trim level is a large positive number, turn up the subwoofer volume a bit and repeat step #2. If it is a larger negative number, turn down the subwoofer volume a bit and repeat step #2. The goal (for the perfectionist) is to obtain a subwoofer trim level close to 0 decibels.
post #5410 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradandbree View Post

One thing I have learned definitively in my personal experience is that making blanket statements about sub level is unwise at best. I have a Velodyne sub, and followed the recommendation of sub level at half based on the recommendations on this board. It lead to issues with the sub (well documented on the Velodyne support thread) that nearly had me sending the sub in for unnecessary repairs. Bottom line is: Audyssey treats all subs as if they are the same, and they simply are not. This is NOT a criticism of Audyssey, nor the beginning of a flame war about sub manufacturers. It's simply a warning that telling everyone to set their sub level exactly the same before running Audyssey will lead some users down the wrong path just like it did to me.

Hope this helps somebody.

Maybe I should add some kind of warning that this may not work for all subs.

Mark
post #5411 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradandbree View Post

Bottom line is: Audyssey treats all subs as if they are the same

If that were true they could use a pre-set for the sub and skip it.
post #5412 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

OK, so what do you think of this modification?.

1. Set the volume control on the subwoofer at the middle of the adjustment range allowed.
2. Run the calibration from the first microphone position, and let Audyssey calculate.
3. If the subwoofer distance is correct, look at the subwoofer trim levels.
a. If the subwoofer trim level is a large positive number, turn up the subwoofer volume a bit and repeat step #2. If it is a larger negative number, turn down the subwoofer volume a bit and repeat step #2. The goal (for the perfectionist) is to obtain a subwoofer trim level close to 0 decibels.

Mark,

This looks better and is what I had to do (putting my trim level at only 1/4 the volume). Many subs out there will have such high output as compared to the mains (due to receiver output and speaker efficiency differences) creating a large difference in trim levels between the mains and the sub.
post #5413 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

Maybe I should add some kind of warning that this may not work for all subs.

If you intend your well-thought-out document to be used by a general audience, I think adding that note would be a good idea. Did you notice that I stopped short of giving suggestions on how that might be worded? It wasn't an oversight; I wouldn't know where to begin with the particular recommendations.

Thanks for making this document -- it will be helpful to many people.
post #5414 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Mark,

This looks better and is what I had to do (putting my trim level at only 1/4 the volume). Many subs out there will have such high output as compared to the mains (due to receiver output and speaker efficiency differences) creating a large difference in trim levels between the mains and the sub.

When I think about the subs that I have owned, most of them had very sensitive volume controls, and turning it up only a little bit (rarely past four out of ten) was sufficient for calibrating with a Rat Shack meter. Admittedly, that meter is not very accurate for low frequencies.

We definitely don't want people blowing their subs.

Mark
post #5415 of 70906
I can't say I have read every post here but I need clarification on a few
questions and I am sorry if this has been explained before...

1. If the seat back, any other furniture or back wall gives sound reflections
during normal playback, shouldn't you run Audyssey with the same reflections
in place and not try to avoid them?

2. During normal playback, the couch might be full of people watching/listening.
Will not these people's bodies absorb sound or dampen certain frequencies?
And therefore, shouldn't Audyssey be run with people sitting in their places
or at least try to mimic their bodies with cushions/blankets/sleeping bags?

3. Is the following correct, that the mic should need changing direction
if the surround speakers are aimed downwards towards the mic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordo View Post

My understanding of reading virtually all of Chris's posts, is that the mic must receive grazing sound from each speaker. Chris (I believe) has tried to generalise in stating that the mic must point to the ceiling. This assumes all speakers fire horizontally, or nearly horizontally. However, if you have surround speakers mounted in the ceiling facing down, then, in theory, the mic should be swung around to receive grazing sound from them.
post #5416 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

I can't say I have read every post here but I need clarification on a few
questions and I am sorry if this has been explained before...

1. If the seat back, any other furniture or back wall gives sound reflections
during normal playback, shouldn't you run Audyssey with the same reflections
in place and not try to avoid them?

2. During normal playback, the couch might be full of people watching/listening.
Will not these people's bodies absorb sound or dampen certain frequencies?
And therefore, shouldn't Audyssey be run with people sitting in their places
or at least try to mimic their bodies with cushions/blankets/sleeping bags?

That's a reasonable argument but these effects are too variable since they are of very short distances which one changes all the time by moving one's head. So, you might correct for one head position and suffer if you moved. What Audyssey is doing is creating a general solution for the listening area and correcting the major and fixed problems.

Quote:
3. Is the following correct, that the mic should need changing direction if the surround speakers are aimed downwards towards the mic?

Yes, if the angle is pretty steep.
post #5417 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerHarley View Post

If Chris puts his seal of approval on this then I'm gonna have to get to work.

HH





The messurments on the Sofa picture are:
There are 2 feet (60 cm) between: 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 2-5 , 3-6, 4-5 & 4-6
There are 2 feet 9.4645 inches (85 cm) between 1 - 5, 1 - 6, 2 - 4 & 3 - 4
There are 1 foot 4.7322 inches (42,5 cm) between 1,2,5,4 - 7 & 1,3,4,6 - 8

Hope my drawings help


PerS
LL
LL
post #5418 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

I can't say I have read every post here but I need clarification on a few
questions and I am sorry if this has been explained before...

1. If the seat back, any other furniture or back wall gives sound reflections
during normal playback, shouldn't you run Audyssey with the same reflections
in place and not try to avoid them?

2. During normal playback, the couch might be full of people watching/listening.
Will not these people's bodies absorb sound or dampen certain frequencies?
And therefore, shouldn't Audyssey be run with people sitting in their places
or at least try to mimic their bodies with cushions/blankets/sleeping bags?

3. Is the following correct, that the mic should need changing direction
if the surround speakers are aimed downwards towards the mic?

I have often wondered these points as well, and keep meaning to ask Chris about them.

Using your logic (same as mind), where high-backed seats are involved, then the first test should have the mic 1 to 2" above the back of the seat. This is critical, as the mic has to "see" all the speakers free of close (loud) reflections and shielding when determining distances and trims. However, for the other test positions, it makes sense to keep them at ear level, so that the EQing is taking the interference and shielding of the high back seats into account.

But I can't remember Chris ever saying this.

Chris?
post #5419 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by pers1 View Post

Hope my drawings help

Yes but the scale is poor. Given the numbers, your head is too big and the sofa is quite small.
post #5420 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

OK, so what do you think of this modification?.

1. Set the volume control on the subwoofer at the middle of the adjustment range allowed.
2. Run the calibration from the first microphone position, and let Audyssey calculate.
3. If the subwoofer distance is correct, look at the subwoofer trim levels.
a. If the subwoofer trim level is a large positive number, turn up the subwoofer volume a bit and repeat step #2. If it is a larger negative number, turn down the subwoofer volume a bit and repeat step #2. The goal (for the perfectionist) is to obtain a subwoofer trim level close to 0 decibels.

In my case the trim levels for the main speakers is -12 dB and the trim level for the sub is -6 db. So should the volume control on the sub be decreased to give an approximately 0 dB trim, or should they be increased to match the trims on the main speakers? In either case, why?
post #5421 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post


Regards,
Chris

The above is what Chris suggested back in post 1162. This is counter to the advice below for subwoofer setup:

Quote:
Originally Posted by giomania View Post

III. Subwoofer Setup
C. Properly set the volume level, polarization, and phase (if applicable).

I have a standing wave at about 63Hz that can be considerably alleviated by setting the phase to 120 degrees. I had initially thought I should adjust the phase to address the standing wave issue the best I could before running Audyssey. However I have not done so based on Chris' advice to leave the phase control at zero. Could Chris please advise with respect to a situation such as mine?
post #5422 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradandbree View Post

One thing I have learned definitively in my personal experience is that making blanket statements about sub level is unwise at best. I have a Velodyne sub, and followed the recommendation of sub level at half based on the recommendations on this board. It lead to issues with the sub (well documented on the Velodyne support thread) that nearly had me sending the sub in for unnecessary repairs. Bottom line is: Audyssey treats all subs as if they are the same, and they simply are not. This is NOT a criticism of Audyssey, nor the beginning of a flame war about sub manufacturers. It's simply a warning that telling everyone to set their sub level exactly the same before running Audyssey will lead some users down the wrong path just like it did to me.

Hope this helps somebody.

I agree that blanket statements aren't going to be universally true, but Audyssey doesn't "treats all subs as if they are the same". It measures them in the same way.

The reason for suggesting that the sub's gain setting be set midway is to avoid the problems that occur if it is set too high. If the gain is too high, in real life use the sub will be driven into distortion when peak volume levels occur. Setting the gain midway avoids that, and also probably works reasonably well as a setting for many subs, and reasonably well as a setting for most people who simply want to do a "set and forget" setup.

The average user isn't like many of us here who obsess about getting the absolute best results we can and who really want to push for the limits of what we can get in results from Audyssey. Your point about running Audyssey, checking the results, then adjusting the gain again is a good point if you're really pushing to get the most out of things as many of us are, but the standard Audyssey recommendation of setting the gain midway is going to work fine for the majority of Audyssey users.
post #5423 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradandbree View Post

One thing I have learned definitively in my personal experience is that making blanket statements about sub level is unwise at best. I have a Velodyne sub, and followed the recommendation of sub level at half based on the recommendations on this board. It lead to issues with the sub (well documented on the Velodyne support thread) that nearly had me sending the sub in for unnecessary repairs. Bottom line is: Audyssey treats all subs as if they are the same, and they simply are not. This is NOT a criticism of Audyssey, nor the beginning of a flame war about sub manufacturers. It's simply a warning that telling everyone to set their sub level exactly the same before running Audyssey will lead some users down the wrong path just like it did to me.

Hope this helps somebody.

I agree with this. All subs have different sensitivities, amplifiers, and volume control ranges. The purpose of saying "set it around 12 o'clock" is to let people know that it should not be set too high. In fact, most of the time it makes no difference where you set it. MultEQ will measure it and make the adjustment in the digital trim in the AVR. The only time it makes a difference is when you have it set so high (or so low) that the reported MultEQ trim is near the end of the allowed range in the AVR (usually ±12 dB). In that case, simply adjust the knob on the back of the sub and run MultEQ again. I don't think this is a really big issue that warrants in-depth discussion. It's a practical consideration given that there is a control on the back of the sub that the measurement system doesn't know where it is set.

Chris
post #5424 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuristix View Post

The above is what Chris suggested back in post 1162. This is counter to the advice below for subwoofer setup:



I have a standing wave at about 63Hz that can be considerably alleviated by setting the phase to 120 degrees. I had initially thought I should adjust the phase to address the standing wave issue the best I could before running Audyssey. However I have not done so based on Chris' advice to leave the phase control at zero. Could Chris please advise with respect to a situation such as mine?

Phase controls on the back of subs are basically useless. They apply "delay" at one frequency rather than the needed group delay that is frequency dependent. So, it's best to just leave them at 0.

Chris
post #5425 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuristix View Post

In my case the trim levels for the main speakers is -12 dB and the trim level for the sub is -6 db. So should the volume control on the sub be decreased to give an approximately 0 dB trim, or should they be increased to match the trims on the main speakers? In either case, why?

As noted, it is for the perfectionist, and you should probably call it a day. However, you would decrease the volume control on your sub, with the goal of obtaining a 0 dB trim in the processor. I don't know the answer as to why, but I have always preferred to raise the volume on my subwoofer as high as possible. It could just be in my head.

Mark
post #5426 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Phase controls on the back of subs are basically useless. They apply "delay" at one frequency rather than the needed group delay that is frequency dependent. So, it's best to just leave them at 0.

Chris

Chris, is this true even with 2 subs? I thought that you should blend the phase controls of the subs to achieve the flattest response, and then run Audyssey.
post #5427 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by streetsmart88 View Post

Chris, is this true even with 2 subs? I thought that you should blend the phase controls of the subs to achieve the flattest response, and then run Audyssey.

If the two subs are driven as one unit, then you need to adjust time delay (or, equivalently, the distance) between subs so that they are aligned to each other. This is not really the same as what the phase control gives you on the back of the sub. With the proper measurement equipment, it is possible in some cases to make this work OK with the phase control. But, in most cases you end up making things worse so it's best to leave them at 0.

Chris
post #5428 of 70906
giomania - great writeup. Thank you!
post #5429 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

giomania - great writeup. Thank you!

Thanks, but it is not quite done yet. I have some more changes to make based on more great input. To be continued (and updated) tomorrow.

Mark
post #5430 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post


Yes, if the angle is pretty steep.

I have a small room and high surrounds, it would be a 45 degree angle from my head up to the speakers. The speakers are angled downward about 20 degrees so they are aimed at a point about a foot above my head. I hope all that makes sense. How should i angle the mic?

Hakka.
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