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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1888

post #56611 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I wonder if perhaps the driver zero-axis is not aligned squarely with the cabinet? It is really the drivers and we are to be on-axis of. Typically, the drivers are flushed with the front baffle, but maybe some speakers are not?

Jeff

IDK, Jeff. What I do know is that it is a great feeling to have a set of speakers you are 100% happy with, without the constant wondering "what if.....?"...

post #56612 of 70896
^^^

while i am 100% happy with my speakers, i cannot lie and say that i'm not thinking "what if"? redface.gif

re: toe-in... experiment, experiment, experiment... i have found that with my setup, which requires 2 people to be happy, toeing in the mains HARD has given me results that both of us are happy with... i don't think there's any all-encompassing "right" answer for that, as it's dependent upon (primarily) the off-axis response of the speaker and the reflections from the room...
post #56613 of 70896
What if thinking for me usually involves "lottery."
post #56614 of 70896
^^^

smile.gif

i contribute one dollar a week to the "tax on the poor" on the off chance my number might come up... biggrin.gif
post #56615 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

An Onk owner will need to comment on the mics being the same.
What about your center speaker - what is it, where is it and where is it aimed?
Jeff

My center is a Kef Reference 202/2c and is set below my TV but flat. My current 205/2 and 202/2c sit where my XQ40 and XQ50c sat. See pictures I posted in the 80.3 thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1360965/integra-dhc-80-3/2940#post_22387761 I will try using my mic from my TX-NR1008 first, then if that does not resolve it should I try to widen out my measuring positions? Note that XT on the 1008 seemed to be just fine.
post #56616 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

My center is a Kef Reference 202/2c and is set below my TV but flat. My current 205/2 and 202/2c sit where my XQ40 and XQ50c sat. See pictures I posted in the 80.3 thread http://www.avsforum.com/t/1360965/integra-dhc-80-3/2940#post_22387761 I will try using my mic from my TX-NR1008 first, then if that does not resolve it should I try to widen out my measuring positions? Note that XT on the 1008 seemed to be just fine.
Try the previous mic and see what happens.

Jeff
post #56617 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There's a full breakdown of which mics go with which AVRs here, in the FAQ:

d)4.   Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro?


Basically, AFAIK his 1008 uses the ACIMH mic, as does the 80.3, so he should be OK to use the mic from the 1008 to test things.

Thanks, I will try it this weekend! smile.gif
post #56618 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi Marcus,

Let's get the LFE setting out of the way first - I think you mean the LPF of LFE when you say the 'LFE was 120Hz'. The LPF of LFE isn’t a crossover - it is a filter as the name LPF (Low Pass Filter) indicates and it should always be set to 120 Hz. More information on that is in the FAQ, here:

c)5.   What is the LPF of LFE and what should it be set to?


If you read that FAQ answer it should explain that in fact nothing happens to the information between 120 and 150 Hz as the LFE channel is an entirely separate thing - the .1 in 5.1.

On to your main issue - why Audyssey has set your front speakers as it did? Were all of the front speakers set to 150Hz? Or was it just one?  If I am thinking of the correct set of Triads,  you have very capable speakers there and I agree that 150Hz is a high setting. Audyssey simply 'listens' to the in-room frequency response of the speakers and the crossover is set based on the F3 response it hears (F3 is the point at which the response for the frequency in question is down by 3dB loudness). So in your room Audyssey heard that the speaker was performing down to 150Hz and then the AVR set the crossover which sends the rest of the range below 150Hz to your sub(s). So this makes us think that there is something about the room or the speaker setup that is causing the response to fall off at 150Hz. Usually, this problem presents itself 'the other way around' with boundary reinforcement causing a low crossover to be set - maybe 40Hz or something and the usual advice then is to raise the XO to about 80Hz to let the subs do their work. Your problem is the reverse of that and you may even be getting localisation of your sub by crossing over at 150Hz. For some general info on crossover settings, there is a whole FAQ section that deals with the issue and it may be worth your while to check it out, although I have to say that it doesn't answer this specific point (maybe it should). It is here:

[URL=]C. Crossover Settings[/URL]


So, would it be possible to post a photo of your room and the front speakers? A cellphone photo will do. That may help diagnose any placement issues etc that might be causing this issue.

On the issue of lowering the XOs, as you say it usually advised not to do this. The reason is that Audyssey only makes correction filters down to the F3 point, so if you lower the XO from 150Hz to, say, 80 Hz, you will have an uncorrected 'hole' between 150Hz and 80Hz. Now it may well be that this is the lesser of two evils and that the sound quality might be better by sending only bass below 80Hz to your subs and letting your satellites handle everything above 80Hz than it is by having Audyssey correction across that range. I'd suggest you try that and see how it sounds.

In the meantime, if anyone else has any suggestions I am sure they will chime in. Depending on those other suggestions, I may modify the FAQ to incorporate the issue you are having.

Please send the photo if you can and let us know what happens if you change the XOs manually to 80Hz as suggested (experimentally). 
Thanks Kbarnes,

After your explaination now it makes sense. No wonder my surround speaker are the same and Xover is 60hz. Yes, my L/C/R are Xover at 150hz. Surround sp near the wall and front speaker about 2.5 feet away from back and side wall.

BTW now I have another problem.

I have 2 x Triad Dual 10" opposite firing passive sub. Just get myself a Captivator S1. Is there any blending problem with the sub.
My S1 have no difficulty going below 20hz but my 10" sub will bottom out. Is there anyway to send only down to 30hz for the 10" sub.?
Or better off using only S1 and sell off the Triad passive sub.

BTW my pre/pro is Onlyo 886 only Multi EQ XT. My room is W10 x L18 x H 9.5'. seal. Should I put the S1 infront between C & L sp and the 2 traids at each corner in the back.

Thanks
Marcus
Edited by Marcus Gan - 9/10/12 at 6:14pm
post #56619 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

This whole toeing-in thing is fraught with potential pitfalls - some speaker makers say "don't do it", others say "you must do it", yet others say "it depends..." and some give no advice at all. Personally, I can’t see how it can ever cause any problems *unless* the manufacturer has specifically designed the speaker in such a way that listening on-axis is wrong, which I can't understand either. Why design a speaker that way?
Check out the Geddes (GedLee) speakers website. The constant directivity design with the waveguides produces an interesting polar response (and Gedlee is one of the rare manufacturers that provide polar response graphs of their speakers), but you'll see that the speakers are designed for extreme toe-in and the listener to NOT be on the speaker axis. The polar response is actually flattest several degrees off axis and the extreme toe-in produces a wider sweetspot and supposedly better imaging (due to htrf and shadowing).

I know some speakers that are supposedly designed to be pointed straight ahead, but aside from having angled drivers (any of these 'straight ahead' speakers don't have angled drivers), I've never seen too many scientifically based explanations as to why.


Max
post #56620 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Check out the Geddes (GedLee) speakers website. The constant directivity design with the waveguides produces an interesting polar response (and Gedlee is one of the rare manufacturers that provide polar response graphs of their speakers), but you'll see that the speakers are designed for extreme toe-in and the listener to NOT be on the speaker axis. The polar response is actually flattest several degrees off axis and the extreme toe-in produces a wider sweetspot and supposedly better imaging (due to htrf and shadowing).
I know some speakers that are supposedly designed to be pointed straight ahead, but aside from having angled drivers (any of these 'straight ahead' speakers don't have angled drivers), I've never seen too many scientifically based explanations as to why.
Max

A friend has JBL synthesis Array 1400s set up with extreme toe-in, crosses before the listening area and it gives him a wide sweet spot. But his listening room is quite large.
post #56621 of 70896
^^^

that would be how mine are setup (not jbl's though, and in a small room)... the left tweeter is pointed at the right seat, and vice versa...

to be honest, i was shocked when this worked out well... i would not have believed that such a severe toe-in would work before i actually tried it...

again, speaker/room dependent... a lot of variables here, not the least of which is the off-axis response of the speakers... i would "guess" that if the off-axis response drops quickly, a severe toe-in like i'm using may cause audyssey to set levels that may destroy the effect (i.e. it will set them too high)... at that point, the user might want to fiddle with the mic position on measurement 1, possibly placing the mic at the intersection of the tweeters, rather than at the mlp...

this kinda brings up something that we don't discuss much in this thread (at least when it comes to mains, we discuss it plenty for subs), which is "what should i do before running audyssey?"... i think many of us do this already, but some time should be spent experimenting with mains positioning before anything else gets done... especially for those of us who don't have a "single" listening position...

ymmv...
post #56622 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

This whole toeing-in thing is fraught with potential pitfalls - some speaker makers say "don't do it", others say "you must do it", yet others say "it depends..." and some give no advice at all. Personally, I can’t see how it can ever cause any problems *unless* the manufacturer has specifically designed the speaker in such a way that listening on-axis is wrong, which I can't understand either. Why design a speaker that way?
Check out the Geddes (GedLee) speakers website. The constant directivity design with the waveguides produces an interesting polar response (and Gedlee is one of the rare manufacturers that provide polar response graphs of their speakers), but you'll see that the speakers are designed for extreme toe-in and the listener to NOT be on the speaker axis. The polar response is actually flattest several degrees off axis and the extreme toe-in produces a wider sweetspot and supposedly better imaging (due to htrf and shadowing).

I know some speakers that are supposedly designed to be pointed straight ahead, but aside from having angled drivers (any of these 'straight ahead' speakers don't have angled drivers), I've never seen too many scientifically based explanations as to why.


Max

Thanks Max. Interesting website that one...

post #56623 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Gan View Post

BTW now I have another problem.

I have 2 x Triad Dual 10" opposite firing passive sub. Just get myself a Captivator S1. Is there any blending problem with the sub.
My S1 have no difficulty going below 20hz but my 10" sub will bottom out. Is there anyway to send only down to 30hz for the 10" sub.?
Or better off using only S1 and sell off the Triad passive sub.

BTW my pre/pro is Onlyo 886 only Multi EQ XT. My room is W10 x L18 x H 9.5'. seal. Should I put the S1 infront between C & L sp and the 2 traids at each corner in the back.

Thanks
Marcus

 

Hi Marcus - I am far from an expert on multi-sub setups so I will let others who are more knowledgeable chime in here. In general, I think it is always going to be easier to set up identical subs (I use two identical models) but I know there are guys in the thread who use non-identical multiple subs. There are definite benefits to using more than one sub so I wouldn't dismiss a multi-sub setup. As far as Audyssey goes, it is advisable to use identical subs or at least subs with similar specs because Audyssey will only correct down to the lowest frequency of the least capable sub, so you risk 'wasting' some of the performance of the better sub.

 

Until someone chimes in with more specific advice, these two sections of the FAQ might be worth reading:

 

f)2.   How do I connect and set up two subwoofers?

 

 

f)8.   How does Audyssey handle complex multiple subwoofer setups?

post #56624 of 70896

My receiver has only one sub out, and my subs are connected in parallel.

 

i use 16Hz on my smaller sub and 11Hz on the larger one;
plus the smaller sub output is set to 4 dB less than the larger one, to account
for the capabilities of each sub.

also, the subs are run 3 dB hot.


setup this way, i have no problems playing movies like Super 8 or WOTW at Reference Level.
integration with the mains is seamless to my ears and the sound from the subs has excellent definition.


Edited by Gellidius - 9/11/12 at 9:23am
post #56625 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

Thanks, I will try it this weekend! smile.gif

You might also put on some content with high frequencies and walk from speaker to speaker placing your ear right at each TWEETER. Something has changed from before to now and this - a blown tweeter - should be eliminated as part of the troubleshooting process.

Jeff
post #56626 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

You might also put on some content with high frequencies and walk from speaker to speaker placing your ear right at each TWEETER. Something has changed from before to now and this - a blown tweeter - should be eliminated as part of the troubleshooting process.
Jeff

I will check but I doubt it is a tweeter as it is not an issue in Direct mode.

Jim
post #56627 of 70896
Posted in the Denon AVR-4311CI thread, I'll post this here also in case someone knows something to help:

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamiraa View Post

I have a strange issue going on.
When I activate the Audyssey DSX (height and wides on) the on screen display and receiver both start FAST pulsing:
"LFE 0dB
and D.Comp : OFF"

Over and Over and OVER, never ending.

The only way to get it to stop is deactivate the Audyssey DSX button until it turns that technology off, and just run Dolby (or any of the other modes, Stereo, Direct, etc)

I'm on the most current firmware (according to the Denon). Updating to Apple Airplay now to see if that firmware fixed anything.
Anyone have this issue?
I'm running a 9.1 right now (height and wides).

Sent out to Denon, was there an entire month.

Hooked it back up with all new speakers (upgraded while it was at Denon for a month), and re-ran Audyssey. I pulled all the banana plugs, and checked everything. Here is a video I sent to Denon with the issue.

They said it was fine after testing it. . . . . . doing it constantly. Back to Denon it goes?

VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnyDb2P-jfg

ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS?
post #56628 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I will check but I doubt it is a tweeter as it is not an issue in Direct mode.
Jim

Good point. sorry, I missed that.

Jeff
post #56629 of 70896
Since the Onkyo 3010 and 5010 both have Sub EQ HT, how do we go about getting the Audyssey website updated to actually say they do?
post #56630 of 70896
Just send them an email ... that's what I did to get them to indicate the Denon 5308CI/AVP upgrade to XT32 and they updated the site the same day. smile.gif
Edited by jdsmoothie - 9/13/12 at 3:15am
post #56631 of 70896
I Just upgraded to an Onkyo 1010 with XT32, my previous receiver was an 809 with XT. I use the receivers as pre/pros with Adcom amps in a 7.1 config with SVS 20-39 sub. After just swapping out the receivers in the rack and the starting to run the full XT32 audyssey cal. first thing I noticed was that the sub level was detected right at 75dB just where I had set it when I did XT on the 809, so this was good, it at least showed consistency with mics.

I then continued the full 8 position calibration, using my tripod in various positions around the main seating area just as I did before with the old 809. One thing I noticed right away during the calibration is that the Audyssey "ping" eminating from the sub was much quieter than the sub test tone from my 809, I thought this was a little funny but continued with the setup. After completion and looking over the calculated settings I compared them to the settings that my 809 gave me and they were nearly identical, give or take .5dB here and there, so again I was impressed with the consistency. Now after running Audyssey I went into the settings and raised my crossovers to 80Hz and disabled every form of post processing except for dynamic EQ which I set at "Movie".

Now to test my system I use the pawn shop/car chase scene from Drive. I am very familiar with this very "visceral" scene with the gun shots, loud exhaust tone of the Mustang and the impacts of the cars bumping together. Well unfortunately I was underwhelmed to say the least, my sound was very thin. My go to "demo" scene was neutered to say the least. It was laughable how much this scene had changed for the worst. I tried a few more scenes and blu's I am familiar with and confirmed that in fact I was certainaly not impressed with XT32.

Initial setup was only a few days ago, and since then I have experimented with different mic positions and that really didn't help much, so far the best solution has been to run with the minimum amount of test positions, which is four I think, and this has helped me get some of the "impact" back. The only positive I noticed so far is the integration of my surrounds is definately more seemless, but overall XT32 has made my sound very thin.

Is this a trait of XT32 or is there something else I can try?
post #56632 of 70896
Its hard to tell, if it has changed to the better or worse, not knowing your individual setup and room situation, but most systems usually have to much bass to start with because of the influences of room acoustics .
XT32 is supposed to improve much on this, a lot more than the prior XT. Unfortunately, taking out the effects of room modes and other ill effects usually will leave you with a much cleaner and more natural sounding bass, but to the dislike of many owners, who prefer the bloated and inflated bass they had before.
Now that XT32 has created the "reference" curve after calibration no one hinders you to turn up the bass to your linking as much as you want to. This is then called "preference" or personal taste because it represents your personal subjective settings instead of the more neutral "reference" settings of the original calibration.
Just go ahead, it's your system, and "tune" it to your liking afterwards using the treble and bass adjustements.
post #56633 of 70896
flyingshane,

Have you considered using audio spectrum analyzer software (like REW) to measure the low frequency sound levels? There's a "Bass Lovers" thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/t/1333462/the-new-master-list-of-bass-in-movies-with-frequency-charts ) which includes such measurements. That might help to determine if it's a preference you've developed or if something actually is going wrong.
post #56634 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

Its hard to tell, if it has changed to the better or worse, not knowing your individual setup and room situation, but most systems usually have to much bass to start with because of the influences of room acoustics .
XT32 is supposed to improve much on this, a lot more than the prior XT. Unfortunately, taking out the effects of room modes and other ill effects usually will leave you with a much cleaner and more natural sounding bass, but to the dislike of many owners, who prefer the bloated and inflated bass they had before.
Now that XT32 has created the "reference" curve after calibration no one hinders you to turn up the bass to your linking as much as you want to. This is then called "preference" or personal taste because it represents your personal subjective settings instead of the more neutral "reference" settings of the original calibration.
Just go ahead, it's your system, and "tune" it to your liking afterwards using the treble and bass adjustements.

Well my bass response is definately smoother, almost so smooth that the LFE channel is mush now. I wouldn't say XT ever had bloated bass, XT just seems that it had a more sharply defined LFE channel. It seems I've gone backwards with XT32. I'm not going to give up, I'm going to tweak a bit and try upping the LFE 3.0dB and see if I like that. So far integration of the center and surrounds are a real plus with XT32. Maybe I'll try the mic from the 809 and see if that makes a difference.
post #56635 of 70896
Here is an EXCELLENT tutorial video on REW put together by GIK Acoustics.

http://www.gikacoustics.com/video_rew_room_eq_wizard_tutorial.html
Edited by pepar - 9/13/12 at 5:42am
post #56636 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingshane View Post

Well my bass response is definately smoother, almost so smooth that the LFE channel is mush now. I wouldn't say XT ever had bloated bass, XT just seems that it had a more sharply defined LFE channel. It seems I've gone backwards with XT32. I'm not going to give up, I'm going to tweak a bit and try upping the LFE 3.0dB and see if I like that. So far integration of the center and surrounds are a real plus with XT32. Maybe I'll try the mic from the 809 and see if that makes a difference.

Honestly, this could be a perception issue. Most people hearing truly flat (and accurate!) bass for the first time think it is limp. This is because they have become accustomed to "lumpy" bass where fortuitous room peaks have coincided with a bass drum in the case of music or explosions in the case of movies. When the lumps are removed, things sound dead. It takes a while - and careful listening is initially needed - to notice that everything is still there but more evenly distributed. Also, cleaning up the boomy overhang makes EVERYTHING sound cleaner and clearer.

Jeff
post #56637 of 70896

my system, which consists of one PC12-Plus (Bash) and one PC13-Ultra (Sledge) are connected through a y adapter at the sub output of my Marantz SR5005 and calibrated with MultEQ.

 

the smaller sub is tuned to 16 Hz and the larger one to 10 Hz and, to take into account the different output capabilities of the 2 subs,

the smaller one has been adjusted to 4 dB less output than the larger sub with the same input signal.

the subs run 3 dB hot.

 

I have run a sine wave signal, Hertz by Hertz, from 10 to 40  to see how it does.

i then used P-EQ on the larger sub to neutralize a depression at 35 Hz.

i would have liked to do some adjustments at 26-27 Hz, but the sub's EQ can't do it.

 

what do you guys think; any comments or suggestions that would permit me to get still better results ?

 

Note: "flat" on the graph means the SPL meter showed flat measurements, no weighting.

 

 


Edited by Gellidius - 9/12/12 at 9:50am
post #56638 of 70896
Just did a calibration on my 1010 using the old mic from my 809, both mics are ACM1H's but the one that came with the 1010 is black and is designated ACM1HB, I'm assuming the B just means that it's black instead of silver.

Anyways, after Audyssey setup with the old mic everything is much, much better, my LFE is performing like it should, thin tinny sound and anemic bass is completely gone. I'll have to do a little more listening but XT32 is definately showing its superiority over XT now. I must have gotten a bad mic with my 1010, thankfully I had a different mic to try out, after spending double what the 809 cost me on the 1010 I was getting a little upset that XT32 was a bust.
post #56639 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingshane View Post

Just did a calibration on my 1010 using the old mic from my 809, both mics are ACM1H's but the one that came with the 1010 is black and is designated ACM1HB, I'm assuming the B just means that it's black instead of silver.
Anyways, after Audyssey setup with the old mic everything is much, much better, my LFE is performing like it should, thin tinny sound and anemic bass is completely gone. I'll have to do a little more listening but XT32 is definately showing its superiority over XT now. I must have gotten a bad mic with my 1010, thankfully I had a different mic to try out, after spending double what the 809 cost me on the 1010 I was getting a little upset that XT32 was a bust.

Good news indeed!

Contact your dealer or the manufacturer and get them to replace the new mic.
post #56640 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gellidius View Post

my system, which consists of one PC12-Plus (Bash) and one PC13-Ultra (Sledge) are connected through a y adapter at the sub output of my Marantz SR5005 and calibrated with MultEQ.

the smaller sub is tuned to 16 Hz and the larger one to 10 Hz and, to take into account the different output capabilities of the 2 subs,
the smaller one has been adjusted to 4 dB less output than the larger sub with the same input signal.
the subs run 3 dB hot.

I have run a sine wave signal, Hertz by Hertz, from 10 to 40  to see how it does.
i then used PEQ on the larger sub to neutralize a depression at 35 Hz.
i would have liked to do some adjustments at 26-27 Hz, but the sub's EQ can't do it.

what do you guys think; any comments or suggestions that would permit me to get still better results ?

Note: "flat" on the graph means the SPL meter showed flat measurements, no weighting.

These are the pre-Audyssey set up tweaks you have done?
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