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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1890

post #56671 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by BGLeduc View Post

An Elliott Scheiner mix, no less.
Despite that, I picked it up anyway.
post #56672 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Despite that, I picked it up anyway.

not a fan of his work on In Absentia/Porcupine Tree?
post #56673 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

not a fan of his work on In Absentia/Porcupine Tree?
Not in comparison to some other mixers, like Nathaniel Kunkel. When George & Giles Martin wanted vocals to be heard at the centre of the soundstage, they mixed them to the centre channel of the Beatles' 'Love' album. Compare that mix to one of Scheiner's, where centre imaged content is mixed to the left & right channels; he doesn't seem to be able to get past his 2-channel mixing sensibilities. Fortunately I have processing on my pre-pro to overcome that.

BTW, congrats on the new projector and screen. Ivan almost picked me up on the way to your place today. Will have to check it out once you have it calibrated.
post #56674 of 70896
Did anyone ever find the solution to the Onkyo Audyssey issue that made one of the audyssey curves sound crappy? I just got an Onkyo 3009 and the "Movie" curve sounds fine, but the "music" curve sounds like someone dumped an old Sony boom box into an empty aquarium. I updated firmware when i plugged it in.
post #56675 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

I have to give mad props to Audyssey. I contacted them via the web page and they replied to me (via a human, not an auto reply) within an hour saying they would fix it shortly. A few hours later and they again emailed me saying it was fixed and thanked me for bringing the error to their attention. I just checked and they did, in fact, fix it! Such rapid response from Audyssey restores my view that there are still companies who want to do everything as perfectly as possible. smile.gif

Would you mind repeating what your issue was?
post #56676 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by textilet View Post

Did anyone ever find the solution to the Onkyo Audyssey issue that made one of the audyssey curves sound crappy? I just got an Onkyo 3009 and the "Movie" curve sounds fine, but the "music" curve sounds like someone dumped an old Sony boom box into an empty aquarium. I updated firmware when i plugged it in.

 

I think you are confusing two different things here. The problem you are referring to was one that affected x09 series after a FW update. Users reported a "tinny" sound when using the movie curve, but it was solved by switching to the music curve - the opposite of what you are finding. 

 

IIRC, Chris at Audyssey said they couldn't replicate it so they never pursued it any further than that. There were only a few reports here describing the same problem so I don't think the thread ever got to the bottom of it either. The usual suspects such as a bad mic, or poor mic technique when measuring etc etc can be ruled out because the people affected were getting a satisfactory result with the music curve, which couldn't be the case if there was a problem with the mic of technique.

 

EDIT: I remember now asking Chris a question about it - see this post:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/49511#post_21560996

 

In Onkyos, you can approximate a flat curve by selecting a THX mode and then turning Re-EQ off - but you will of course then have a THX mode enabled which is possibly not what you want.

 

If the movie curve sounds good to you, is there a problem with just leaving it in movie mode? I realise that is not an answer but it's a kludge that might be OK for now.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 9/14/12 at 2:56am
post #56677 of 70896
I also found it strange that the problem I have is the obverse of what others found with regard to "music" and "movie". However reading their posts, I am convinced it is the same problem. I had no such issue with my tx nr709. The "bad" curve sounds like all the corrections have been applied backward or something; you can hear that something is mathematically incorrect across the board.

There is in truth no problem with leaving it in "movie" mode; if I were a normal rational person it would be fine. But I'm not. This will slowly drive me insane whether I use the bad mode or not.

So I guess the only course of action is to set myself up to take measurements and make graphs of the problem, then maybe get into contact with Chris and/or Onkyo. This issue is most definitely quantifiable. It may take a couple days to gather the right gear but I will post what I find here. Thank you KBarnes for your response.
post #56678 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by textilet View Post

I also found it strange that the problem I have is the obverse of what others found with regard to "music" and "movie". However reading their posts, I am convinced it is the same problem. I had no such issue with my tx nr709. The "bad" curve sounds like all the corrections have been applied backward or something; you can hear that something is mathematically incorrect across the board.

There is in truth no problem with leaving it in "movie" mode; if I were a normal rational person it would be fine. But I'm not. This will slowly drive me insane whether I use the bad mode or not.

So I guess the only course of action is to set myself up to take measurements and make graphs of the problem, then maybe get into contact with Chris and/or Onkyo. This issue is most definitely quantifiable. It may take a couple days to gather the right gear but I will post what I find here. Thank you KBarnes for your response.

 

:)  I too share your OCD-like attributes and I would want it to work properly too, even if I didn't actually use the music mode. Taking measurements and graphing the results would be terrific - please share them here when you have done them as it will add to the storehouse of knowledge in the thread. Your measurements and graphs will also be of interest to Chris at Audyssey - last time this issue was raised nobody took measurements IIRC and so the issue was quickly dropped at Audyssey who could not apparently reproduce the problem.  It seems likely, or possible at least, that the problem can be resolved by a FW update; if so, I believe you may find it easier to get that to happen by pushing the issue with Audyssey and letting them push it with Onkyo, rather than trying to deal with it via Onkyo directly (who seem less responsive to customer issues). Of course, it can do no harm to involve Onkyo directly too, but don't be too surprised if you get nowhere. HST, even Onkyo may find it hard to dispute graphical evidence of the issue. Good luck with it either way. And thanks in advance for publishing your findings here.  Cheers, Keith

post #56679 of 70896
Just to double check that the problem is repeatable, I ran Audyssey again this morning. The first 5 attempts never got past the sub leveling process; the mic would register spl up to 56 db, then the dbs would go down as I continued adjusting the gain upward. I unplugged the mic, power cycled the AVR, the restarted the process. Each time the SPL reading would crest at 56 db then fall even as I continued to adjust the sub gain upward. The sixth time, this didn't happen. I leveled the subs, then proceeded taking measurements. On the 5th position, the left speaker pinged twice, then I got the message "speaker match error - retry/cancel". I retried 3 or four times, then canceled. My speakers all match (Paradigm W5's) and are working correctly. I then switched out the mic with the one from my TX NR709, and successfully completed Audyssey on the first attempt.

HOWEVER--the original problem remains:

The Audyssey "off" setting sounds normal- nice sound from the paradigms with some slight boominess/dipiness in the bass and a sense that the mids/highs from each speaker are not fully cooperating to present a united image.

The Audyssey "Movie" setting sounds improved, with better definition in the mids/highs and vastly improved quality to the bass. Imaging is improved.

The Audyssey "music" setting sounds like the Audyssey "off" setting minus the Audyssey "movie" setting, if that makes sense. it is as if only the peaks are left. Like instead of "throwing out" or reducing the problem frequencies, Audyssey threw out the "good" information and kept the trash. Its intriguing because ideally the "music" curve should just sound slightly different than the "movie". It seems like something very simple and basic is buggered in the math.

Anyway I will do as I said previously and post my findings.
post #56680 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by textilet View Post

Just to double check that the problem is repeatable, I ran Audyssey again this morning. The first 5 attempts never got past the sub leveling process; the mic would register spl up to 56 db, then the dbs would go down as I continued adjusting the gain upward. I unplugged the mic, power cycled the AVR, the restarted the process. Each time the SPL reading would crest at 56 db then fall even as I continued to adjust the sub gain upward. The sixth time, this didn't happen. I leveled the subs, then proceeded taking measurements. On the 5th position, the left speaker pinged twice, then I got the message "speaker match error - retry/cancel". I retried 3 or four times, then canceled. My speakers all match (Paradigm W5's) and are working correctly. I then switched out the mic with the one from my TX NR709, and successfully completed Audyssey on the first attempt.

HOWEVER--the original problem remains:

The Audyssey "off" setting sounds normal- nice sound from the paradigms with some slight boominess/dipiness in the bass and a sense that the mids/highs from each speaker are not fully cooperating to present a united image.

The Audyssey "Movie" setting sounds improved, with better definition in the mids/highs and vastly improved quality to the bass. Imaging is improved.

The Audyssey "music" setting sounds like the Audyssey "off" setting minus the Audyssey "movie" setting, if that makes sense. it is as if only the peaks are left. Like instead of "throwing out" or reducing the problem frequencies, Audyssey threw out the "good" information and kept the trash. Its intriguing because ideally the "music" curve should just sound slightly different than the "movie". It seems like something very simple and basic is buggered in the math.

Anyway I will do as I said previously and post my findings.

 

Interesting about the mic - you're the third person recently who's reported mic problems. I wonder if they have a bad batch?

 

Yes, your comments about the music curve make sense to me and I look forward to seeing your measurements in due course.

post #56681 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Interesting about the mic - you're the third person recently who's reported mic problems. I wonder if they have a bad batch?

Might be time to bring this to Chris' attention ....
post #56682 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReneV View Post

Would you mind repeating what your issue was?

The Audyssey website where you look up which receivers have what Ausyssey techonolgis in them was incorrect...it did not list the new Onkyo 5010, 3010 and 1010 properly. Here is the site, they did not have list the 5010 and 3010 as having SubEQ HT and did not list the 1010 as having MultiEQ XT32. It was a VERY fast fix when I mentioned it to them...same day I emailed them!

http://www.audyssey.com/products?pid=All&ptype=All&=Search+Products
post #56683 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by textilet View Post

Just to double check that the problem is repeatable, I ran Audyssey again this morning. The first 5 attempts never got past the sub leveling process; the mic would register spl up to 56 db, then the dbs would go down as I continued adjusting the gain upward. I unplugged the mic, power cycled the AVR, the restarted the process. Each time the SPL reading would crest at 56 db then fall even as I continued to adjust the sub gain upward. The sixth time, this didn't happen. I leveled the subs, then proceeded taking measurements. On the 5th position, the left speaker pinged twice, then I got the message "speaker match error - retry/cancel". I retried 3 or four times, then canceled. My speakers all match (Paradigm W5's) and are working correctly. I then switched out the mic with the one from my TX NR709, and successfully completed Audyssey on the first attempt.
HOWEVER--the original problem remains:

The Audyssey "off" setting sounds normal- nice sound from the paradigms with some slight boominess/dipiness in the bass and a sense that the mids/highs from each speaker are not fully cooperating to present a united image.
The Audyssey "Movie" setting sounds improved, with better definition in the mids/highs and vastly improved quality to the bass. Imaging is improved.
The Audyssey "music" setting sounds like the Audyssey "off" setting minus the Audyssey "movie" setting, if that makes sense. it is as if only the peaks are left. Like instead of "throwing out" or reducing the problem frequencies, Audyssey threw out the "good" information and kept the trash. Its intriguing because ideally the "music" curve should just sound slightly different than the "movie". It seems like something very simple and basic is buggered in the math.
Anyway I will do as I said previously and post my findings.

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but did you check for a firmware update and did you do a factory reset before initially setting up the Onkyo? I had to do both with my 3010 and I read (somewhere, cannot remember where) that it is highly advisable to factory reset all Onkyo's before setting them up the first time even new out of the box from the factory. No idea why.

Until I did the factory reset (and my update - do not know which was the fix), my Audyssey would not recognize my front heights. It passed a VERY VERY faint sound through it, but the microphone could not pick it up.
post #56684 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Not in comparison to some other mixers, like Nathaniel Kunkel. When George & Giles Martin wanted vocals to be heard at the centre of the soundstage, they mixed them to the centre channel of the Beatles' 'Love' album. Compare that mix to one of Scheiner's, where centre imaged content is mixed to the left & right channels; he doesn't seem to be able to get past his 2-channel mixing sensibilities. Fortunately I have processing on my pre-pro to overcome that.
BTW, congrats on the new projector and screen. Ivan almost picked me up on the way to your place today. Will have to check it out once you have it calibrated.

Hey thanks-you guys are welcome to visit anytime. I'll have to give Beatles' Love another spin. I recall enjoying the SQ although I'm not the biggest Beatles fan.
post #56685 of 70896
I did update the firmware first thing; I did not do the reset prior to the update. Would a factory reset remove the firmware and allow me to re-update?
post #56686 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Interesting about the mic - you're the third person recently who's reported mic problems. I wonder if they have a bad batch?

Might be time to bring this to Chris' attention ....

 

I'll drop him a note....

post #56687 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by textilet View Post

I did update the firmware first thing; I did not do the reset prior to the update. Would a factory reset remove the firmware and allow me to re-update?

It won't remove the FW. It is a good idea to do the reset on a new unit - I don't know why but I too had an initial problem with Audyssey not recognising all my speakers when I first got my last AVR - the reset sorted it.

 

In case you are unaware of the procedure:

 

 

RESET Onkyo to Factory
 
To reset the AV receiver to its factory defaults, turn it on and, while holding down the [VCR/DVR] button, press the [ON/STANDBY] button. "Clear" will appear on the display and the AV receiver will enter Standby mode.
 
All controls referred to are on the unit not the remote.
post #56688 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It won't remove the FW. It is a good idea to do the reset on a new unit - I don't know why but I too had an initial problem with Audyssey not recognising all my speakers when I first got my last AVR - the reset sorted it.

In case you are unaware of the procedure:


RESET Onkyo to Factory
 
To reset the AV receiver to its factory defaults, turn it on and, while holding down the [VCR/DVR] button, press the [ON/STANDBY] button. "Clear" will appear on the display and the AV receiver will enter Standby mode.
 
All controls referred to are on the unit not the remote.

Thank you. I will try that when I get home, it couldn't hurt.
post #56689 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by textilet View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It won't remove the FW. It is a good idea to do the reset on a new unit - I don't know why but I too had an initial problem with Audyssey not recognising all my speakers when I first got my last AVR - the reset sorted it.

In case you are unaware of the procedure:


RESET Onkyo to Factory
 
To reset the AV receiver to its factory defaults, turn it on and, while holding down the [VCR/DVR] button, press the [ON/STANDBY] button. "Clear" will appear on the display and the AV receiver will enter Standby mode.
 
All controls referred to are on the unit not the remote.

Thank you. I will try that when I get home, it couldn't hurt.

 

Sure. Do be aware that you will lose all your settings (including Audyssey) so it might be useful to make a note of any settings you want to go back to. You'll need to run Audyssey again, but that's something you'd want to do anyway in the circs.

 

Just for info, I long ago stopped writing down settings for all my gear and have for some time just used the camera in my mobile phone to take pics of the settings screens. Much faster and no bits of paper to lose. 

post #56690 of 70896

FAQ Update!

 

I've added this question to the FAQ:

 

a)11. Where can I find help with the Audyssey Pro Kit?

 

Currently the answer just points to the Pro thread started by SoM. I could expand on the answer or even create a new section of the FAQ to bring together the various hints and tips so far contained in the Pro thread. Or I could leave it as it is now.

 

Anyone got any views on this, especially SoM as I don't want to appear to be treading on the toes of the Pro thread in any way?  As you probably know, the FAQ already has three sections - the FAQ itself, the '101' and a brief Glossary of common terms. It would be easy enough to add a 4th section for 'Audyssey Pro Users'. If anyone thinks this would be a good (or a bad) idea, please let me know. I will go with the flow...

post #56691 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

FAQ Update!

I've added this question to the FAQ:

a)11. Where can I find help with the Audyssey Pro Kit?


Currently the answer just points to the Pro thread started by SoM. I could expand on the answer or even create a new section of the FAQ to bring together the various hints and tips so far contained in the Pro thread. Or I could leave it as it is now.

Anyone got any views on this, especially SoM as I don't want to appear to be treading on the toes of the Pro thread in any way?  As you probably know, the FAQ already has three sections - the FAQ itself, the '101' and a brief Glossary of common terms. It would be easy enough to add a 4th section for 'Audyssey Pro Users'. If anyone thinks this would be a good (or a bad) idea, please let me know. I will go with the flow...

Well, Keith, the effort you have expended in creating the current FAQ has certainly been worthwhile for many on this thread, and I'm sure we don't thank you often enough. Adding a section for Pro users would certainly do no harm. I would be willing to assist in any way.
post #56692 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

FAQ Update!

I've added this question to the FAQ:

a)11. Where can I find help with the Audyssey Pro Kit?


Currently the answer just points to the Pro thread started by SoM. I could expand on the answer or even create a new section of the FAQ to bring together the various hints and tips so far contained in the Pro thread. Or I could leave it as it is now.

Anyone got any views on this, especially SoM as I don't want to appear to be treading on the toes of the Pro thread in any way?  As you probably know, the FAQ already has three sections - the FAQ itself, the '101' and a brief Glossary of common terms. It would be easy enough to add a 4th section for 'Audyssey Pro Users'. If anyone thinks this would be a good (or a bad) idea, please let me know. I will go with the flow...

Well, Keith, the effort you have expended in creating the current FAQ has certainly been worthwhile for many on this thread, and I'm sure we don't thank you often enough. Adding a section for Pro users would certainly do no harm. I would be willing to assist in any way.

 

Thanks for the kind words, Jerry. I'll wait to hear SoM's view (and anyone else who cares to comment of course) and if they think as you do I will create a Pro section in some way. Thanks for the offer of assistance - I will take you up on it because I am in no way an expert on Pro (although I do seem to get good results). Perhaps you could double-check the section's content before I post it? I will create it offline in Word and then transfer it to the FAQ post afterwards).

post #56693 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks for the kind words, Jerry. I'll wait to hear SoM's view (and anyone else who cares to comment of course) and if they think as you do I will create a Pro section in some way. Thanks for the offer of assistance - I will take you up on it because I am in no way an expert on Pro (although I do seem to get good results). Perhaps you could double-check the section's content before I post it? I will create it offline in Word and then transfer it to the FAQ post afterwards).

I'd propose the first question to be something like "What are the differences/improvements that a Pro calibration will bring to my system?" Beyond that I'd suggest identifying the differences between the consumer and Pro versions ... things done differently and things done in addition to and build on the consumer process ... and have the questions go to those. Example of the latter would be something like "Do I measure in different locations with Pro than with the consumer version?"

Let the suggestions begin!

Jeff
post #56694 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks for the kind words, Jerry. I'll wait to hear SoM's view (and anyone else who cares to comment of course) and if they think as you do I will create a Pro section in some way. Thanks for the offer of assistance - I will take you up on it because I am in no way an expert on Pro (although I do seem to get good results). Perhaps you could double-check the section's content before I post it? I will create it offline in Word and then transfer it to the FAQ post afterwards).

I'd propose the first question to be something like "What are the differences/improvements that a Pro calibration will bring to my system?" Beyond that I'd suggest identifying the differences between the consumer and Pro versions ... things done differently and things done in addition to and build on the consumer process ... and have the questions go to those. Example of the latter would be something like "Do I measure in different locations with Pro than with the consumer version?"

Let the suggestions begin!

Jeff

 

Good points, Jeff. I may have spawned a monster.... ;)

post #56695 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks for the kind words, Jerry. I'll wait to hear SoM's view (and anyone else who cares to comment of course) and if they think as you do I will create a Pro Perhaps you could double-check the section's content before I post it? I will create it offline in Word and then transfer it to the FAQ post afterwards).

More than happy to do so, Keith!
post #56696 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Thanks for the kind words, Jerry. I'll wait to hear SoM's view (and anyone else who cares to comment of course) and if they think as you do I will create a Pro Perhaps you could double-check the section's content before I post it? I will create it offline in Word and then transfer it to the FAQ post afterwards).

More than happy to do so, Keith!

 

Thanks Jerry. If the consensus is a 'go' I will start work on it next week. I just got a new pattern generator and the latest version of Calman (5.0) which will give me a measure of automation for screen calibrations now, so that will probably take up the first day or two of next week as I start on the way up a new learning curve ;)  But after that I will be free...

post #56697 of 70896
^^^

downloaded calman 5 this morning, and on the surface, appears to be mucho better than 4... we'll find out later on today, i'm pretty psyched to try out the new 3d lut... smile.gif

sorry for the ot... redface.gif
post #56698 of 70896
Well I ran Audyssey on my DHC80.3 with the mic from my TX-NR1008 and big difference. Levels went from -9 dB range for L/R to around -4 dB with the TX mic. Listened to Alanis Morrissette and not harsh. Also switched from Audyssey Music to off and very little difference. Obvious issue with mic I got with the 80.3. Maybe I will eventually like the 80.3 and XT32.
Edited by jima4a - 9/15/12 at 6:12pm
post #56699 of 70896
Is anyone keeping track of how many seemingly bad mics have been reported with the 80.3? Three or four?
post #56700 of 70896
I have a bad mic with my onkyo tx nr 3009. Obviously not an integra but apropos i think.
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