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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1906

post #57151 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Very odd indeed, looks like you are getting some sort of cancellation going on only when eq is engaged. Can you plot just the sub and then just the main speaker response?
Also, if you are setting levels based on receiver test tones those do not run through audyssey. I'd recommend leaving them as they are at least for now, and if you change them used a calibration disc for the tones.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

 

You say "... if you are setting levels based on receiver test tones those do not run through audyssey".  The Audyssey calibration actually sets the speaker trims, and the level of the test tones is indeed affected by these trim settings.  So, what exactly do you mean?

post #57152 of 70910
Sicnt EQ changes by the Audyssey setup could affect the readings when playing test noise. The receiver's test tones don't "pass through" Audyssey, AFAIK. So there's a potential for discrepancy.
post #57153 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

This is an interesting case, and I'm sure that you can get some better results by working with us here.

Reminds me my problem (http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/57000#post_22490759)
Similar crazy dip around 70 Hz after applying Audyssey. I do not have proper SPL meter so all measurements made by the Audyssey mic itself, but comparison with/without Audyssey are interesting. Solved by rerunning Audyssey calibration a lot of times and switching Audyssey and DynamicEQ options on/off many times, after some switch curve just changed to something meaningful...

I have changed the speaker placements since then and need to recalibrate again, hopefully I will not get to this strange Audyssey behavior again. BTW, this is with Onkyo TX-NR818 in my case.
post #57154 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Sicnt EQ changes by the Audyssey setup could affect the readings when playing test noise. The receiver's test tones don't "pass through" Audyssey, AFAIK. So there's a potential for discrepancy.

 

I agree, the test tones aren't subject to the filters, but they are affected by the trim settings.  IMO, when using the test tones following an Audyssey calibration, the important thing to look for is the relative levels, not the absolute levels.  And unless the test tone measurements reveal something significantly wrong, I would always recommend to trust the levels set by Audyssey.

post #57155 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Sicnt EQ changes by the Audyssey setup could affect the readings when playing test noise. The receiver's test tones don't "pass through" Audyssey, AFAIK. So there's a potential for discrepancy.

 

I agree, the test tones aren't subject to the filters, but they are affected by the trim settings.  IMO, when using the test tones following an Audyssey calibration, the important thing to look for is the relative levels, not the absolute levels.  And unless the test tone measurements reveal something significantly wrong, I would always recommend to trust the levels set by Audyssey.

Yes the receiver tones are affected by the trim levels,  But I disagree they can be used for relative levels.  One speaker may have a huge peak at 1khz that Audyssey is correcting.  So using raw receiver test tones you will set that speaker level too low.  If you are going to adjust trim levels after running Audyssey it needs to be done with a source other than the receiver tones.

post #57156 of 70910
Thanks for the suggestions AustinJerry. I just got new theater seats delivered this morning and they are much wider and taller than my previous loveseat, not to mention made of leather as opposed to fabric. This change in furniture warrants a complete re-running of Audyssey anyway so I will try to do that this evening and post up some new measurements and more explanation as you described.
post #57157 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Yes the receiver tones are affected by the trim levels,  But I disagree they can be used for relative levels.  One speaker may have a huge peak at 1khz that Audyssey is correcting.  So using raw receiver test tones you will set that speaker level too low.  If you are going to adjust trim levels after running Audyssey it needs to be done with a source other than the receiver tones.

Huge peaks (and dips) usually only happen below the Schroeder Frequency where room modes dominate. Typically, that is below 400Hz - 500Hz. You do make a valid point though, but I believe it goes more to the vagaries of measuring SPL with a handheld meter than to corrected/uncorrected differences. Beyond that, the test signals are pink noise and not a single frequency that could skew the measurement; in pink noise I think it all averages out.

Jeff
post #57158 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Very odd indeed, looks like you are getting some sort of cancellation going on only when eq is engaged. Can you plot just the sub and then just the main speaker response?
Also, if you are setting levels based on receiver test tones those do not run through audyssey. I'd recommend leaving them as they are at least for now, and if you change them used a calibration disc for the tones.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

 

You say "... if you are setting levels based on receiver test tones those do not run through audyssey".  The Audyssey calibration actually sets the speaker trims, and the level of the test tones is indeed affected by these trim settings.  So, what exactly do you mean?

He means that when you play the AVR's own test tones, they do not have Audyssey EQ applied to them - they 'bypass' Audyssey. The test tones are not affected by the Audyssey EQ - so playing the test tones generated by the AVR doesn't correlate properly to the post-cal results.

 

EDIT: Just saw your reply - yes the test tones are of course affected by the trims (otherwise there'd be no point to the trims) but the EQ applied in the Audyssey calibration may boost (or reduce) certain frequencies in the tones and this could affect the overall SPL from the tones. But I concur that this is unlikely to be relevant to the issue at hand.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 10/22/12 at 10:37am
post #57159 of 70910
On the new Denon XX13 models, the ability to change individual speaker volume has been removed from the remote control (a feature on all previous models going back at least 5 years) and can now only be accomplished using the manual setup "test tone". The starting point for the speaker adjustment (-12db to +12db) is the level the AVR set the speaker to after running Audyssey.
post #57160 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

He means that when you play the AVR's own test tones, they do not have Audyssey EQ applied to them - they 'bypass' Audyssey. The test tones are not affected by the Audyssey EQ - so playing the test tones generated by the AVR doesn't correlate properly to the post-cal results.

 

Never mind....

post #57161 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Sicnt EQ changes by the Audyssey setup could affect the readings when playing test noise. The receiver's test tones don't "pass through" Audyssey, AFAIK. So there's a potential for discrepancy.

 

I agree, the test tones aren't subject to the filters, but they are affected by the trim settings.  IMO, when using the test tones following an Audyssey calibration, the important thing to look for is the relative levels, not the absolute levels.  And unless the test tone measurements reveal something significantly wrong, I would always recommend to trust the levels set by Audyssey.

+1. Especially if using a ratshack SPL meter. Omnimic is much more reliable though thanks to the far superior, calibrated mic. FWIW, my OM and my Audyssey readings are pretty much identical (using the Pro mic for Audyssey).

post #57162 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

He means that when you play the AVR's own test tones, they do not have Audyssey EQ applied to them - they 'bypass' Audyssey. The test tones are not affected by the Audyssey EQ - so playing the test tones generated by the AVR doesn't correlate properly to the post-cal results.

 

Never mind....

I edited...

post #57163 of 70910
just for grins I went here http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/calculadores_en.htm and did some cipherin'. Assuming 7 octaves of pink noise (from about 80 hz to about 10K), each octave equal at 60 dB on average, you'd get a total SPL of 68.5 (non-coherent - - 76.9 for coherent wsources but I don't see how they could be considered coherent because they don't overlap in frequency - - I could be wrong). If there were one octave wide peak at 70 dB, the total noncoherent SPL is 72, ond total coherent is 79.2. So an octave's worth of 10 dB peak nets a difference of a bit over 3 dB in a 7 octave limited bandwidth pink noise test, I think. A litttle more than I might've guessed . . .
post #57164 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

just for grins I went here http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/calculadores_en.htm and did some cipherin'. Assuming 7 octaves of pink noise (from about 80 hz to about 10K), each octave equal at 60 dB on average, you'd get a total SPL of 68.5 (non-coherent - - 76.9 for coherent wsources but I don't see how they could be considered coherent because they don't overlap in frequency - - I could be wrong). If there were one octave wide peak at 70 dB, the total noncoherent SPL is 72, ond total coherent is 79.2. So an octave's worth of 10 dB peak nets a difference of a bit over 3 dB in a 7 octave limited bandwidth pink noise test, I think. A litttle more than I might've guessed . . .

Now that is cool... cool.gif

post #57165 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

just for grins I went here http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/calculadores_en.htm and did some cipherin'. Assuming 7 octaves of pink noise (from about 80 hz to about 10K), each octave equal at 60 dB on average, you'd get a total SPL of 68.5 (non-coherent - - 76.9 for coherent wsources but I don't see how they could be considered coherent because they don't overlap in frequency - - I could be wrong). If there were one octave wide peak at 70 dB, the total noncoherent SPL is 72, ond total coherent is 79.2. So an octave's worth of 10 dB peak nets a difference of a bit over 3 dB in a 7 octave limited bandwidth pink noise test, I think. A litttle more than I might've guessed . . .

I'd think that a room peak would be more like 1/3 of an octave. What effect would that have on a broadband SPL reading?
post #57166 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I'd think that a room peak would be more like 1/3 of an octave. What effect would that have on a broadband SPL reading?

Here's a measurement from a friend's room. He has a huge 20 dB peak that covers a full octave from 31.5 Hz to 65 Hz:



Knocking down that peak with a wide Q band of a parametric EQ caused the subwoofer trim to be raised 9 dB.

Craig
post #57167 of 70910
That looks like it might be a confluence of modes, but yes, point well made.

That's not a main channel, is it? I thought the context was main channels and uncorrected room modes interferring with using a SLM and internal test noise to verify channel balance. Could there be an octave wide, 10dB-20dB peak in a main between 100Hz and 400Hz-500Hz? I.E. 100Hz to 200Hz, or 150 to 300? Etc?

Jeff
Edited by pepar - 10/22/12 at 3:58pm
post #57168 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

That looks like it might be a confluence of modes, but yes, point well made.
That's not a main channel, is it? I thought the context was main channels and uncorrected room modes interferring with using a SLM and internal test noise to verify channel balance. Could there be an octave wide, 10dB-20dB peak in a main between 100Hz and 400Hz-500Hz? I.E. 100Hz to 200Hz, or 150 to 300? Etc?
Jeff
I thought Brady84's cancellation was in the subwoofer range?
post #57169 of 70910
He has a huge suckout in the sub frequency range from 30Hz to 80Hz, but it was primetimeguy whose #57160 post I was addressing.

Jeff
Edited by pepar - 10/22/12 at 5:05pm
post #57170 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

He has a huge suckout in the sub frequency range from 30Hz to 80Hz, but it was primetimeguy whose #57160 post I was addressing.
Jeff

Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Yes the receiver tones are affected by the trim levels,  But I disagree they can be used for relative levels.  One speaker may have a huge peak at 1khz that Audyssey is correcting.  So using raw receiver test tones you will set that speaker level too low.  If you are going to adjust trim levels after running Audyssey it needs to be done with a source other than the receiver tones.

I agree with his recommendation to use a source other than the receiver's test tones to check the level trims. The internal test tones are not exposed to the EQ and the *cumulative* effects of the boosts and cuts can certainly impact the average levels. In addition, the volume normalization process can impact the levels. An "outside" source would be exposed to both of those aspects. If one wants to verify the level trims post-Audyssey EQ, it's better to do so with a signal that actually goes through the EQ.

OTOH, changing the trims is probably not advisable, no matter source of the test signal. Audyssey's trim settings are based on the entire range of the signal and all of the measurement positions, not just the limited bandwidth of the test tones and one measurement position.

Craig
post #57171 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

OTOH, changing the trims is probably not advisable, no matter source of the test signal. Audyssey's trim settings are based on the entire range of the signal and all of the measurement positions, not just the limited bandwidth of the test tones and one measurement position.
Craig

Bingo! The entire discussion about how to check channel levels is pointless because Audyssey's sophisticated technology can't be second guessed with any other means we have available.

If someone *wants* a more front-centric soundstage or more rear surround presentation, then manual tweaks can be done. But that's a preference issue not that Audyssey "got it wrong."

Jeff
post #57172 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

On the new Denon XX13 models, the ability to change individual speaker volume has been removed from the remote control (a feature on all previous models going back at least 5 years) and can now only be accomplished using the manual setup "test tone". The starting point for the speaker adjustment (-12db to +12db) is the level the AVR set the speaker to after running Audyssey.
Onkyo for years only had center and subs or sub trim level on the fly.. All trims on the fly WAS one denons better points over onkyo, to bad, makes you think that denon is just lucky when they get it right the first time... I always found all channel trim on the fly tobe very useful.....Sorry to see it go...
Edited by joehonest - 10/22/12 at 7:24pm
post #57173 of 70910
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by amill94 View Post

Hey guys, hoping I can get some help with my subwoofer issue and my Onkyo 3007. Had the receiver since launch in 2009. I've been running it with Martin Logan Source fronts, Martin Logan Matinee center, ML Abyss sub and some Athena bookshelfs for rears. I finally upgraded my subwoofer to a HSU VTF-15H. I ran through the Audyssey and the receiver set the fronts to full band which enabled double bass. I changed them to 80hz along wtih the rest of the speakers and noticed I was lacking mid bass for music and somewhat during movies. The sub crossover is turned off on the sub and the receiver lpf of lfe was set to 100 or 120hz. I set the fronts to full band and turned on double bass and noticed mid bass had returned. AFter reading through the faq here I noticed you aren't supposed to use double bass. I was under the impression that double bass on the onkyo units acted like lfe+main on denon and yamaha receivers.

I decided to start over and factory reset the receiver. Re ran audyssey and got the following settings which were different than the last time I ran it.
These were the audyssey results and db reading by my radioshack 33-2055

FR: -6.5 = 66db
FL: -6.5 = 66
C: -4.0 = 66
SR: -10.5 = 67db
SL: -7.0 = 67db
SUB: +0.5 = 67-68db

I adjusted them all to read 75db so they ended up like this.

FR +2.5
FL +2.5
C +5
SR/SL = -3.0

Sub: +1.5. I needed to get it up around +3.5 or slightly higher to get it to hit 78-80db. instead I settled at bumping the gain on the sub to 9o'clock and the avr gain to +1.5. I'm only hitting about 77db this way though. IS there any negative effects to running the avr gain @ +3 or +4?

Fronts were crossed over @ 40hz
Center @ 60hz and Surrounds @ 90hz.
Double bass was set to off.


Is it normal to have such a large variation between what the receiver sets the speakers to and what 75db actually is? Also, I adjusted the speaker's xo to 120hz and played musical content to make sure the sub would produce midrange, and it did. However, if I drop the xo below 100hz I lose a lot of midbass. Any other thoughts on settings I could try. I posted in the thread for this sub and it seems like the receiver settings are my last hope. In the Audyssey submenu, Audyssey is set to on, dynamic volume is off and soundstage is set to reference. It's grayed out though, so I can't change it to anything but reference.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

 

 

Hi -  what is important really for the trim levels is that they are consistent rather than they measure at exactly 75dB when using an external SPL meter. Yours show remarkably good consistency, albeit 9dB down. The ratshack meter isn't especially reliable for absolute measurements although it's pretty good for relative measurements, as you have seen. The Audyssey mic has a tolerance of +/- 2dB and the ratshack mic might also have something similar, so if they are both erring in the same direction you could have a 4dB discrepancy very easily, although that is still a long way off the 8 or 9dB you are seeing. There is also the issue of making sure the ratshack meter was in the precise same spot as the Audyssey mic was for position 1 when you took the follow-up measurements.

 

Personally, I would trust Audyssey more than the ratshack meter and I would have probably left the measurements where they were - as I say, it is the relative readings rather than the absolute that matter. If your levels are set relatively correctly, then all that will happen is an adjustment of the MCV to hit the desired 85dB average for reference, although it will throw off Dynamic EQ to some extent.

 

Check out this FAQ answer:

 

e)3.   Why does my My Sound Pressure Level meter give a different result to Audyssey?

 

There is also the possibility of a defective Audyssey mic. If you have access to a different mic of the same type as the one supplied with your AVR, you may care to calibrate again and see if the results differ.  Check out the FAQ answer below for more info on mic types.

 

d)4.   Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro?

 

You need to turn Dynamic EQ to ON if you are listening at less than reference level (0dB). The commonest reason for lack of bass is listening below reference level and you cannot evaluate correct bass performance at lower than reference level unless you turn on Dynamic EQ. I suggest you do that and listen again.

 

You definitely do NOT want to use double bass as this will give you bloated and non-reference bass (you heard the bass 'come back' when you tried this, but I would guess you were listening well below reference and I know you had DEQ off, so this would explain it). But you need to turn double bass off and to set a crossover. 80Hz is a good starting point as your sub will without question be far, far more capable of handling frequencies below 80Hz than your main speakers are. I would raise the front speaker XOs to 80Hz from the 40Hz that the 3007 (not Audyssey) set.

 

Check out these FAQ answers for detailed reasoning:

 

f)7.   What is ‘LFE + Main’ or ‘Double Bass’ and should I use it?

 

f)5.   Since I ran Audyssey everything sounds great - but where has my bass gone?

 

 

There is no negative effect to running the sub trim at +3dB/+4dB. 

 

I think all the tweaking you have done to Audyssey's settings may well have resulted in a bit of a mess. I would run Audyssey again, following the setup procedures in the Audyssey 101 (linked in my sig) and this time, leave the trims alone (but set the XOs as suggested above and turn off double bass etc and turn ON Dynamic EQ - DEQ is set to ON by default after running Audyssey so you must have turned it off). When you have done this, do a listening test - leave the ratshack meter in the drawer - and see what it sounds like.

 

EDIT: see Craig John's post a few above this one about the value or otherwise of using the test tones in the AVR to check levels. The general point is that the AVR test tones do not go through Audyssey's EQ so measuring them is probably pointless once you have run Audyssey.

post #57174 of 70910

If I could add one more comment to what Keith has posted it would be this:  if you are concerned that the overall level of your speakers is too low, then rather than adjust them using the RS SPL, simply raise the trim level of each speaker in the AVR by the same amount.  This preserves the relative level between the speakers, which is likely more accurate than your SPL readings. 

post #57175 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


Hi -  what is important really for the trim levels is that they are consistent rather than they measure at exactly 75dB when using an external SPL meter. Yours show remarkably good consistency, albeit 9dB down. The ratshack meter isn't especially reliable for absolute measurements although it's pretty good for relative measurements, as you have seen. The Audyssey mic has a tolerance of +/- 2dB and the ratshack mic might also have something similar, so if they are both erring in the same direction you could have a 4dB discrepancy very easily, although that is still a long way off the 8 or 9dB you are seeing. There is also the issue of making sure the ratshack meter was in the precise same spot as the Audyssey mic was for position 1 when you took the follow-up measurements.

Personally, I would trust Audyssey more than the ratshack meter and I would have probably left the measurements where they were - as I say, it is the relative readings rather than the absolute that matter. If your levels are set relatively correctly, then all that will happen is an adjustment of the MCV to hit the desired 85dB average for reference, although it will throw off Dynamic EQ to some extent.

Check out this FAQ answer:

e)3.   Why does my My Sound Pressure Level meter give a different result to Audyssey?


There is also the possibility of a defective Audyssey mic. If you have access to a different mic of the same type as the one supplied with your AVR, you may care to calibrate again and see if the results differ.  Check out the FAQ answer below for more info on mic types.

d)4.   Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro?


You need to turn Dynamic EQ to ON if you are listening at less than reference level (0dB). The commonest reason for lack of bass is listening below reference level and you cannot evaluate correct bass performance at lower than reference level unless you turn on Dynamic EQ. I suggest you do that and listen again.

You definitely do NOT want to use double bass as this will give you bloated and non-reference bass (you heard the bass 'come back' when you tried this, but I would guess you were listening well below reference and I know you had DEQ off, so this would explain it). But you need to turn double bass off and to set a crossover. 80Hz is a good starting point as your sub will without question be far, far more capable of handling frequencies below 80Hz than your main speakers are. I would raise the front speaker XOs to 80Hz from the 40Hz that the 3007 (not Audyssey) set.

Check out these FAQ answers for detailed reasoning:

f)7.   What is ‘LFE + Main’ or ‘Double Bass’ and should I use it?


f)5.   Since I ran Audyssey everything sounds great - but where has my bass gone?



There is no negative effect to running the sub trim at +3dB/+4dB. 

I think all the tweaking you have done to Audyssey's settings may well have resulted in a bit of a mess. I would run Audyssey again, following the setup procedures in the Audyssey 101 (linked in my sig) and this time, leave the trims alone (but set the XOs as suggested above and turn off double bass etc and turn ON Dynamic EQ - DEQ is set to ON by default after running Audyssey so you must have turned it off). When you have done this, do a listening test - leave the ratshack meter in the drawer - and see what it sounds like.

EDIT: see Craig John's post a few above this one about the value or otherwise of using the test tones in the AVR to check levels. The general point is that the AVR test tones do not go through Audyssey's EQ so measuring them is probably pointless once you have run Audyssey.

Thank you for this reply. This single post gave me more information than I have found over the past few days. Regarding Dynnamic EQ, I do have that turned on. I have dynamic volume turned off. I must have confused the two. I'm going to factory reset the receiver today and re-run audyssey. I'll leave the speaker gain settings where audyssey places them. Then adjust xo's to 80hz for the speakers. Should I set the lpf of the lfe to 80hz as well or max it out @ 120hz on the avr?

Since audyssey sets the speaker levels in the receiver lower, is there any issue with keeping the volume on the recevier up near 0? Most tv watching is done between -20 and -30db. BD movies is usually around -12-18. I'm assuming I'll be in the low single digits now keeping the audyssey settings.

Thanks again.
post #57176 of 70910
Good point. I think for now I'll keep the settings as is after I run audyssey. I may bump the sub a bit depending on what it sounds like. After a few days of listening if I feel the need to bump them, I'll give it a shot. Thanks.
post #57177 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by amill94 View Post

AFter reading through the faq here I noticed you aren't supposed to use double bass. I was under the impression that double bass on the onkyo units acted like lfe+main on denon and yamaha receivers.
I decided to start over and factory reset the receiver.

It is the same as LFE+Main on the Denon AVRs, and as noted, not recommended. Note also you don't have to reset the receiver just to rerun Audyssey as the settings are simply reset when Audyssey is rerun.
post #57178 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by amill94 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


Hi -  what is important really for the trim levels is that they are consistent rather than they measure at exactly 75dB when using an external SPL meter. Yours show remarkably good consistency, albeit 9dB down. The ratshack meter isn't especially reliable for absolute measurements although it's pretty good for relative measurements, as you have seen. The Audyssey mic has a tolerance of +/- 2dB and the ratshack mic might also have something similar, so if they are both erring in the same direction you could have a 4dB discrepancy very easily, although that is still a long way off the 8 or 9dB you are seeing. There is also the issue of making sure the ratshack meter was in the precise same spot as the Audyssey mic was for position 1 when you took the follow-up measurements.

Personally, I would trust Audyssey more than the ratshack meter and I would have probably left the measurements where they were - as I say, it is the relative readings rather than the absolute that matter. If your levels are set relatively correctly, then all that will happen is an adjustment of the MCV to hit the desired 85dB average for reference, although it will throw off Dynamic EQ to some extent.

Check out this FAQ answer:

e)3.   Why does my My Sound Pressure Level meter give a different result to Audyssey?


There is also the possibility of a defective Audyssey mic. If you have access to a different mic of the same type as the one supplied with your AVR, you may care to calibrate again and see if the results differ.  Check out the FAQ answer below for more info on mic types.

d)4.   Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro?


You need to turn Dynamic EQ to ON if you are listening at less than reference level (0dB). The commonest reason for lack of bass is listening below reference level and you cannot evaluate correct bass performance at lower than reference level unless you turn on Dynamic EQ. I suggest you do that and listen again.

You definitely do NOT want to use double bass as this will give you bloated and non-reference bass (you heard the bass 'come back' when you tried this, but I would guess you were listening well below reference and I know you had DEQ off, so this would explain it). But you need to turn double bass off and to set a crossover. 80Hz is a good starting point as your sub will without question be far, far more capable of handling frequencies below 80Hz than your main speakers are. I would raise the front speaker XOs to 80Hz from the 40Hz that the 3007 (not Audyssey) set.

Check out these FAQ answers for detailed reasoning:

f)7.   What is ‘LFE + Main’ or ‘Double Bass’ and should I use it?


f)5.   Since I ran Audyssey everything sounds great - but where has my bass gone?



There is no negative effect to running the sub trim at +3dB/+4dB. 

I think all the tweaking you have done to Audyssey's settings may well have resulted in a bit of a mess. I would run Audyssey again, following the setup procedures in the Audyssey 101 (linked in my sig) and this time, leave the trims alone (but set the XOs as suggested above and turn off double bass etc and turn ON Dynamic EQ - DEQ is set to ON by default after running Audyssey so you must have turned it off). When you have done this, do a listening test - leave the ratshack meter in the drawer - and see what it sounds like.

EDIT: see Craig John's post a few above this one about the value or otherwise of using the test tones in the AVR to check levels. The general point is that the AVR test tones do not go through Audyssey's EQ so measuring them is probably pointless once you have run Audyssey.

Thank you for this reply. This single post gave me more information than I have found over the past few days. Regarding Dynnamic EQ, I do have that turned on. I have dynamic volume turned off. I must have confused the two. I'm going to factory reset the receiver today and re-run audyssey. I'll leave the speaker gain settings where audyssey places them. Then adjust xo's to 80hz for the speakers. Should I set the lpf of the lfe to 80hz as well or max it out @ 120hz on the avr?

Since audyssey sets the speaker levels in the receiver lower, is there any issue with keeping the volume on the recevier up near 0? Most tv watching is done between -20 and -30db. BD movies is usually around -12-18. I'm assuming I'll be in the low single digits now keeping the audyssey settings.

Thanks again.

Hi Amill,

 

Have you tried different sub placements?  You might have a room mode contributing to your lack of midbass punch.  That is the only argument for running mains full range that I have ever really agreed with.  Running mains full range(if they are capable down low) will help cancel room modes, think multiple subwoofers.  I'm not suggesting you do that, but it could explain why your seeing what you are seeing.

 

Where do you sit in the room?

 

You have a rat shack meter.  Do some FR plotting and see if you have a midbass cancellation issue.  Plot both ways with mains full range and with set to small.  See what you get.

 

FWIW, for music I use the Audio- subwoofer bass setting and turn my bass all the way up.  If your looking for that kick in the chest from the kick drum, thats the best way I've found to get it and easily switch back to flat calibrated bass for movies.  I do have quite a bit of headroom and my system can accomodate this bass-boost so start with a couple dbs bass boost on the sub and see how you like it.  That concert sound we're all used to from live shows is not a flat FR, it normally has quite a midbass boost for punch.

 

As far as the AVR calibrating to 75db.  Mine normally calibrates a few dbs short of 75, but I wouldn't worry too much about the number.  Your speakers will likely be complaining before you hit reference at listening position which would be "0,"  Remember 75 is just a number and each system has its own capabilities/weaknesses.  99.99999% of HT systems can't do Reference without ear piercing distortion, Mine included.

post #57179 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by amill94 View Post

Thank you for this reply.

 

 

You are very welcome.

 

Quote:
This single post gave me more information than I have found over the past few days. Regarding Dynnamic EQ, I do have that turned on. I have dynamic volume turned off. I must have confused the two. I'm going to factory reset the receiver today and re-run audyssey.

 

OK - yes, leave DEQ on and DV off. Good idea to factory reset and rerun Audyssey.

 

 

Quote:
I'll leave the speaker gain settings where audyssey places them. Then adjust xo's to 80hz for the speakers. Should I set the lpf of the lfe to 80hz as well or max it out @ 120hz on the avr?

Set the LPF of LFE to 120Hz. There can be content in the LFE channel (the .1 channel) up to 120Hz so it's best set to that.

 

 

 

Quote:
Since audyssey sets the speaker levels in the receiver lower, is there any issue with keeping the volume on the recevier up near 0? Most tv watching is done between -20 and -30db. BD movies is usually around -12-18. I'm assuming I'll be in the low single digits now keeping the audyssey settings.

It's fine to run the AVR near 0. After you have done your testing with the new Audyssey calibration, if you want to have the MV running a little lower, Jerry's suggestion above is a good one - raise all the trims by the same amount (a few dB will do) - that preserves the result of the calibration.

 

Don't hesitate to come back with more questions if you need to. 

post #57180 of 70910
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Hi Amill,

Have you tried different sub placements?  You might have a room mode contributing to your lack of midbass punch.  That is the only argument for running mains full range that I have ever really agreed with.  Running mains full range(if they are capable down low) will help cancel room modes, think multiple subwoofers.  I'm not suggesting you do that, but it could explain why your seeing what you are seeing.

Where do you sit in the room?

You have a rat shack meter.  Do some FR plotting and see if you have a midbass cancellation issue.  Plot both ways with mains full range and with set to small.  See what you get.

FWIW, for music I use the Audio- subwoofer bass setting and turn my bass all the way up.  If your looking for that kick in the chest from the kick drum, thats the best way I've found to get it and easily switch back to flat calibrated bass for movies.  I do have quite a bit of headroom and my system can accomodate this bass-boost so start with a couple dbs bass boost on the sub and see how you like it.  That concert sound we're all used to from live shows is not a flat FR, it normally has quite a midbass boost for punch.

As far as the AVR calibrating to 75db.  Mine normally calibrates a few dbs short of 75, but I wouldn't worry too much about the number.  Your speakers will likely be complaining before you hit reference at listening position which would be "0,"  Remember 75 is just a number and each system has its own capabilities/weaknesses.  99.99999% of HT systems can't do Reference without ear piercing distortion, Mine included.

I can only place the sub in the front left corner of the room. It's a 2 story living room. The right side of the room is open to a hallway that runs parallel to the room. The back of the room is open to the kitchen. No half wall or anything, just columns.

IMG_1534.jpg

20120925_174900.jpg

When you say "audio- subwoofer bass" what do you mean exactly? Is that a setting on the receiver or dsp mode? After I run audyssey I'll run through the test tone cd that came with my HSU sub. Basically 16hz-125hz should be enough correct? I'm just looking for large dips in output levels on the meter at various frequencies correct?
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