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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1912

post #57331 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

0. 0. No. smile.gif

And the prize for the most succinct answer of the week goes to........ <drumroll> ...... biggrin.gif

post #57332 of 70896
My toast was burning. biggrin.gif
post #57333 of 70896
Thanks JD....
post #57334 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

My toast was burning. biggrin.gif

You mean it was almost, er, toast :)  Great answer though. 0. 0. No. I love it...

post #57335 of 70896
^^^^

I agree. Even I can't screw up 0.0. No

Thanks again...!

Patrick
post #57336 of 70896
Guys i have a question, what should i set the REFERENCE OFFSET for the XBOX 360? 5 , 10 or 15 ?

This is what the manual says but no mention about Xbox 360 gaming:

0 dB (Film Ref): This is the default setting and should be used when listening to movies.

15 dB: Select this setting for pop/rock music or other program material that is mixed at very high listening levels and has a compressed dynamic range.

10 dB: Select this setting for jazz or other music that has a wider dynamic range. This setting should also be selected for TV content as that is usually mixed at 10 dB below film reference.

5 dB: Select this setting for content that has a very wide dynamic range, such as classical music.

no mention about gaming tho so which would be correct for gaming?
post #57337 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa View Post

Guys i have a question, what should i set the REFERENCE OFFSET for the XBOX 360? 5 , 10 or 15 ?

This is what the manual says but no mention about Xbox 360 gaming:

0 dB (Film Ref): This is the default setting and should be used when listening to movies.

15 dB: Select this setting for pop/rock music or other program material that is mixed at very high listening levels and has a compressed dynamic range.

10 dB: Select this setting for jazz or other music that has a wider dynamic range. This setting should also be selected for TV content as that is usually mixed at 10 dB below film reference.

5 dB: Select this setting for content that has a very wide dynamic range, such as classical music.

no mention about gaming tho so which would be correct for gaming?

I am not a gamer at all, but I would expect that games are similar to rock music and have a very compressed dynamic range. If that is the case, then use 15dB. Alternatively, try the other settings and just listen - which sounds best to you?  Pay special attention to the bass and surround channels when listening.

 

g)3.   What is Reference Level Offset in Dynamic EQ?

post #57338 of 70896
Okay thanks, ill set the xbox to 10db then, that should be good right?

and for cable tv what should i set the refernce to?
post #57339 of 70896
LFE versus LFE+Mains (Denon)

Thank you to all who have commented in order to help me with my understanding regarding the correct Denon setting for the proper base management of my system; I truly appreciate the assistance.

I do not want to come across as argumentative and I respect that I have no where near the level of knowledge as the experts in this forum, however I respectfully disagree in part with the explanations provided regarding LFE and LFE+Main relative to Denon.

I understand the difference between LFE (.1) and low range frequency base signals. I also agree and understand that when you select "small" versus "large" in the speaker configuration menu that by doing so I am allowing the receiver to perform the base management thus avoiding sending those low base frequencies to the mains.

Please allow me to clarify. My Denon 4308ci allows within the speaker setup sub menu the ability to select the subwoofer mode as the Denon menu screen states "select low range signal to be reproduced by subwoofer" which there are two options; LFE and LFE+ Main.


a). When LFE is selected it states "play low range and LFE of all channels set to small"

b). When LFE + Main is selected it states "play low range and LFE signal of all channels"

I interpret this selection option to allow the user to determine simply what signal goes to the sub as follows.

a). Select LFE only and if your speakers are set to large only the .1 or LFE signal will go to
the sub.
Select LFE only and if your speakers are set to small both the .1 or LFE and the low
range will go to the sub.
b). Select LFE+Main and low range and LFE signal will go to the sub regardless of setting
the speakers to large or small.

I believe the only way to not have the main speakers play low range is to either;

a). Set the speakers to small and allow the receiver to perform the base management
and/or,
b). Set the cross over for the mains to 80 Hz.

My system (Paradigm Studio 100's and centre CC690 certainly could handle the low range however I agree wholeheartedly with the forum recommendation that this is not desirable as yes this is why you purchased a sub in the first place and secondly you want to avoid double bass.

To summarize my Denon setting I have my speakers set to "small" and by doing so I am letting the receiver perform the base management. I have also set my front right, left, centre and rear crossovers to 80Hz thus limiting low range from additionally going to the mains . Now although I have my subwoofer selected to LFE+Main which according to Denon means that the sub will play "low range and LFE signal of all channels" I select this simply to ensure that my sub is not just receiving the .1 or LFE signal only and I am confident with my other settings (small and crossover) that I am not getting low range to the mains.

I believe with Denon the LFE versus LFE+Mains is not a base management utility and as stated simply determines what signal is sent to the subwoofer. With Denon the way to ensure base management of the mains is to select speakers to small and adjust crossovers for mains to 80Hz or higher.

Respectfully Cobra
Edited by cobravenomous - 11/3/12 at 2:27pm
post #57340 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamonsasa View Post

Okay thanks, ill set the xbox to 10db then, that should be good right?
and for cable tv what should i set the refernce to?

Yes. 10db as well.
post #57341 of 70896
Okay thank u very much, i set both my cable tv and xbox 360 to reference level 10db,

one more quesiton, i have auddysey set to MOVIE for the xbox 360 source ,thats most likely right yea? Music doesn't seem like a correct choice for gaming..
post #57342 of 70896
Again, it's your setup, settings should be based on your personal preference. Adjust them and use the one that you prefer, after all they're your ears. smile.gif
post #57343 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobravenomous View Post

LFE versus LFE+Mains (Denon)

I do not want to come across as argumentative and I respect that I have no where near the level of knowledge as the experts in this forum, however I respectfully disagree in part with the explanations provided regarding LFE and LFE+Main relative to Denon.

I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make. Bottom line is: if you set your speakers to small, then whether you select LFE or LFE+Main makes absolutely no difference.
post #57344 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make. Bottom line is: if you set your speakers to small, then whether you select LFE or LFE+Main makes absolutely no difference.

That was exactly the point that I was trying to make. I was advised earlier never to select LFE+Main, and to only select the LFE sub setting. However as you have confirmed by selecting the speakers to "small", which then allows the Denon receiver to control base management, it is irrelevant then whether you select LFE or LFE+Main for the sub setting as both selections will send low range and LFE only to the subwoofer.

Thanks Cobra
post #57345 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobravenomous View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make. Bottom line is: if you set your speakers to small, then whether you select LFE or LFE+Main makes absolutely no difference.

That was exactly the point that I was trying to make. I was advised earlier never to select LFE+Main, and to only select the LFE sub setting. However as you have confirmed by selecting the speakers to "small", which then allows the Denon receiver to control base management, it is irrelevant then whether you select LFE or LFE+Main for the sub setting as both selections will send low range and LFE only to the subwoofer.

Thanks Cobra

 

Does the Denon allow LFE+Main to be set even if the speakers are set to small?  That is strange because LFE+Main requires the main speakers to be set to Large for obvious reasons. Have you actually tried to set LFE+Main without setting the speakers to Large?  Does it allow it? Does it automatically change the speakers to Large when you set LFE+Main?  It sounds like an odd thing to let you do - to set LFE+Main with speakers set to Small because LFE+Main can't work if the speakers are set to Small.  Bottom line is still this: you do NOT want to use LFE+Main if you value your sound quality.

post #57346 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Does the Denon allow LFE+Main to be set even if the speakers are set to small?  That is strange because LFE+Main requires the main speakers to be set to Large for obvious reasons. Have you actually tried to set LFE+Main without setting the speakers to Large?  Does it allow it? Does it automatically change the speakers to Large when you set LFE+Main?  It sounds like an odd thing to let you do - to set LFE+Main with speakers set to Small because LFE+Main can't work if the speakers are set to Small.  Bottom line is still this: you do NOT want to use LFE+Main if you value your sound quality.

Yes, Keith, the Denon allows for LFE+Main to be selected if the speakers are set to small. That may not make any sense, but it also does no harm.
post #57347 of 70896
Had this discussion in the Denon 4308CI thread related to Denon LFE +Main Dec-2011, http://www.avsforum.com/t/881446/the-official-denon-4308ci-owners-thread/4830#post_21367728:
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I did a search on "LFE +Main" here, but my Q seemed to be answered not exactly, so I ask here with images.

(not clear from me re-reading my manual either)


1) Upon running Audyssey I get this result for my 7.1 set-up:

My mains came back as large, I changed them to small:




2) I set the 7 speaker crossovers to 80hz, meaning below that will route to the subwoofer.

The Front was large, changing that to small gave a default of 40hz, I changed to 80hz.

The center was small but had a 40hz measurement (the -3db cut), I changed that to 80hz.

All surrounds came back as 80hz, so left them.

I also set the "LFE + Main" to 120hz, meaning I want all bass as "low pass filter" 120hz/below to go to the sub, and there will be a blend of 80hz-120hz for bass in that region for the 7 speakers, this is my Q below.




3) Now, my 2 Q's: Bass management using "LFE" vs "LFE + Main"

a) LFE




vs

b) LFE + Main




Q1: In this instance, since I'm all small speakers, then "LFE" = "LFE + Main", this is a true statement, correct?


Q2: As shown in 2) above, I am routing 80hz - 120hz as a "blend" among the 7 speakers and the subwoofer, in other words as a low pass filter, correct?

>>All 7 speakers will play 80hz and up, the IB subwoofer will play the LFE plus the content 120hz/below of all 7 speakers.


I read that LFE specific content is spec'd to go up to 120hz, and some movie mixes do that, so if you put the LPF at 80hz will lose some 80hz-120hz content that was intended to be played thru your subwoofer, so I want to avoid that.

(I can't seem to find that mixing spec, would like it for reference as my knowledge base and sharing of info)


Similar threads here, but I wanted specific answer based on my A/V bass management method

-"Subwoofer setting on 80hz or 120hz?" http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1325883

-"LPF setting??" http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1317413


I appreciate feedback and clarification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjgarrison View Post

Set LFE. to 120

Leave your crossover @ 80

Set your sub to LFE, not LFE + MAIN.


At LFE + MAINS your mains AND your sub will double up on everything below 80 which is where you have your mains crossover set.


Thx kjgarrison, I've seen you around the avs forums.

I clearly understand having my 7 speakers at 80hz crossover, where that filters the signal below 80hz at some -db/slope to each speaker and re-routes that portion of the signal to the subwoofer seemlessly so no signal is lost..


Guess what confuses me is Denon uses the term "crossover" for subwoofer, where it should be "low pass filter", correct?

(they did not want to add a seperate screen just for subwoofer "low pass filter" I guess)


Just semantics here, but since all my speakers are set to "small", it should not matter if I choose LFE or LFE + MAIN, but I'll flip that back to LFE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

fwiw, I posted same Q (Bass management using "LFE" vs "LFE + Main") to DenonUSA facebook page, here http://www.facebook.com/denonusa


and got this "official" response on December 23 at 9:33am:
Quote:
Yes, setting the crossover sets a LPF and HPF. Since your speakers are set to small then essentially you will end up with the same result for LFE and LFE+MAIN.


It's true that LFE specific content can sometimes reach up to 120 Hz. Your LFE range will not be effected by the crossover setting, they are independent of each other.


so, the .1 LFE channel is always sent to the subwoofer, and there is NO filtering ever applied to it.


The LPF of the main RH/LH content that is routed to the subwoofer then is specified by the crossover screen LFE or LFE + Main amount that the user sets.

As stated earlier mine is set at 120 Hz currently

I could experiment with different LPF settings of 80hz and up to 120hz, if I wanted to see the different blending that Audyssey does.

Probably more a post for the DIY sub section, as those guys do this all the time.....

Edited by mtbdudex - 11/4/12 at 5:22am
post #57348 of 70896
Hey tricky question maybe!

I redid my scan and setup for 4311

Have 2nd set of speakers connected to height and have the appropriate setting in amp setup as "B".

Now main reason to do audyssey again was to see what it did with the better B set of speakers just out of curiosity ( I really only listen to these speakers for pure stereo/direct or dedicated enjoyable music listening until I get a 2ch amp etc and or experiment with front audyssey bypass and the sub implementation levels etc.

Once it was all done I checked the the eq audyssey and there was no front b eq!?

Is this correct? Why hasn't audyssey done them? To be honest I don't remember it doing them either..
Should I have "told" amp and set it to normal before swapping over to "b" ??

One other thing is with audyssey on I presume it's using speaker A's curve which would be all wrong for these very different b speakers...
Confused and interested!
post #57349 of 70896
Prior to running Audyssey, you must set the Front speaker selection (p. 64 step #11) to either A, B, or A+B and the EQ will be done based on your selection. There is no dedicated Front B EQ when your primary speakers are your Front A speakers.
post #57350 of 70896
Ahhhh
ok I just figured that because a set of speakers were/are connected it would do a test/sweep and check whats connected...

Just gotta now do it all again!

Sweet ta mate.
post #57351 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Had this discussion in the Denon 4308CI thread related to Denon LFE +Main Dec-2011, http://www.avsforum.com/t/881446/the-official-denon-4308ci-owners-thread/4830#post_21367728:

Thank you to all who have assisted in my understanding of LFE and LFE+Main as it pertains to Denon.

I believe it is safe to say now that with Denon; if the speakers are set to small then there is no difference between the Subwoofer Mode setting of LFE and LFE+Main.

Using the previous posters images in the quote above which describe what information is sent to the sub when selecting LFE or LFE+Main, if the speakers are set to large is it correct then to understand;

"Speakers set to Large"

1). If subwoofer selection is LFE only then the subwoofer would only receive the LFE signal
information and no low range signal information.

2). If subwoofer selection is LFR+Main then the subwoofer would receive both the LFE and
low range signal of all channels. I would also believe that this setting would provide the
double base which has been referred to as unwanted.

I am leaving my speaker setting to small to allow base management, but asked the question only to see if I am comprehending the fundamentals.

Again thanks Cobra
Edited by cobravenomous - 11/4/12 at 6:49am
post #57352 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Does the Denon allow LFE+Main to be set even if the speakers are set to small?  That is strange because LFE+Main requires the main speakers to be set to Large for obvious reasons. Have you actually tried to set LFE+Main without setting the speakers to Large?  Does it allow it? Does it automatically change the speakers to Large when you set LFE+Main?  It sounds like an odd thing to let you do - to set LFE+Main with speakers set to Small because LFE+Main can't work if the speakers are set to Small.  Bottom line is still this: you do NOT want to use LFE+Main if you value your sound quality.

Yes, Keith, the Denon allows for LFE+Main to be selected if the speakers are set to small. That may not make any sense, but it also does no harm.

It definitely makes no sense :)

post #57353 of 70896

WOOT!!  My pair of Submersive F2s will be here a week tomorrow, 12 November!

 

I wonder if my room treatments will arrive before then so I can get the room ready before the F2s arrive... hope so.

 

It will be interesting to see how Audyssey Pro result is affected (for the better) by the addition of some GIK tri-corner bass traps and some wall treatments (and possibly a ceiling treatment too).

 

I will keep the thread informed of course....

post #57354 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

WOOT!!  My pair of Submersive F2s will be here a week tomorrow, 12 November!

 

I wonder if my room treatments will arrive before then so I can get the room ready before the F2s arrive... hope so.

 

It will be interesting to see how Audyssey Pro result is affected (for the better) by the addition of some GIK tri-corner bass traps and some wall treatments (and possibly a ceiling treatment too).

 

I will keep the thread informed of course....

 

In my most recent round of adding room treatments, bass traps improved the impulse response and the waterfall graph.  Based on this, I suspect the Pro calibration results were improved as well. You can check out my results here:  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1432713/using-waterfall-and-etc-graphs-to-analyze-room-response/150#post_22551641

post #57355 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

WOOT!!  My pair of Submersive F2s will be here a week tomorrow, 12 November!

 

I wonder if my room treatments will arrive before then so I can get the room ready before the F2s arrive... hope so.

 

It will be interesting to see how Audyssey Pro result is affected (for the better) by the addition of some GIK tri-corner bass traps and some wall treatments (and possibly a ceiling treatment too).

 

I will keep the thread informed of course....

 

In my most recent round of adding room treatments, bass traps improved the impulse response and the waterfall graph.  Based on this, I suspect the Pro calibration results were improved as well. You can check out my results here:  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1432713/using-waterfall-and-etc-graphs-to-analyze-room-response/150#post_22551641

 

 

Thanks Jerry. This will be my first attempt at treating any room. I am concentrating my efforts on the bass (initially at least) as this is where I think I will benefit most. Audyssey Pro is doing a nice job for the upper frequencies I think (and for the bass as well, but traps can only help). I am going to use some 'superchunks' in the corners and then a couple of regular traps elsewhere - depending on what I can fit in, into this small awkward room of mine. I am still researching traps. And they are easy to move around too prior to finalising their location with the aid of OmniMic and ears so I can experiment some too. I'm hoping the traps will arrive by next weekend so I can do some work before the F2s arrive on Monday week.

 

EDIT:  I just skimmed your thread - great job! I couldn’t tell from your photos but did you treat the ceiling at all?  If so, what did you use and where?


Edited by kbarnes701 - 11/4/12 at 2:01pm
post #57356 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by virre View Post

Hi all!
Bellow is a drawing of my living room.
I just joined the Denon family with a 5.1 Dali setup.
But before I start calibrating my brand new system I would like to know if it matters in which direction my subwoofer is facing.
This is how everything is placed (and must be placed) at the moment and in which directions they are facing:

Any suggestions?
Thanks!

I have pretty much the same layout (except it is mirrored). The table actually is not the main concern here. You can always move it away and move back when you want, or cover with something soft and absorbing. The most problematic is the walls above the TV and main listening position. As the walls are parallel and have no furniture they are very reflective and some acoustical treatment is needed. At the back wall absorbing material is also required as you sit very close to it.
post #57357 of 70896
^^^

ummm....
post #57358 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by virre View Post

Hi all!
Bellow is a drawing of my living room.
I just joined the Denon family with a 5.1 Dali setup.
But before I start calibrating my brand new system I would like to know if it matters in which direction my subwoofer is facing.
This is how everything is placed (and must be placed) at the moment and in which directions they are facing:

Any suggestions?
Thanks!

I have pretty much the same layout (except it is mirrored). The table actually is not the main concern here. You can always move it away and move back when you want, or cover with something soft and absorbing. The most problematic is the walls above the TV and main listening position. As the walls are parallel and have no furniture they are very reflective and some acoustical treatment is needed. At the back wall absorbing material is also required as you sit very close to it.

Note that if you move the table out of the way for listening, then you need to have it moved out of the way for the Audyssey calibration too. Same goes for covering it with absorbent material - if the material is there for the calibration, it needs to be there for listening and  vice-versa.

 

b)3.   Should I move anything out of the room before running Audyssey?

 

I doubt if many people will go to the trouble of moving furniture every time they want to use their system though.

 

Room treatments etc are always a good idea, but I'm not sure what all this has to do with the OP's question about which way his sub should face ;)

post #57359 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Room treatments etc are always a good idea, but I'm not sure what all this has to do with the OP's question about which way his sub should face wink.gif

Heh.. In my room this placement (as shown on picture) didn't work well and I moved the sub just under TV. It works there much better. The general response is lower by few decibels in new location, but the bass is more flat now. But this is for my room and for his room there might be totally different structure of resonances. On sub channel this is really best to try different positions.

As for the Audyssey calibration and the table - works pretty well calibrating without a table and then bringing the table doesn't really change much. And coffee tables are really a part of furniture that just doesn't sit in place but moved then and there frequently (mine is even with the wheels). Anyway the practice shown that the table is not the problem in this layout, the resonances between walls is and they are just crazy! So I am sharing what to expect. Until this problem is solved - none of the options will be sounding good. I don't know if he have treatments already, but this was nowhere mentioned and there is nothing in a plan.
post #57360 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Room treatments etc are always a good idea, but I'm not sure what all this has to do with the OP's question about which way his sub should face wink.gif

Heh.. In my room this placement (as shown on picture) didn't work well and I moved the sub just under TV. It works there much better. The general response is lower by few decibels in new location, but the bass is more flat now. But this is for my room and for his room there might be totally different structure of resonances. On sub channel this is really best to try different positions.

 

 

Absolutely.

 

Quote:
As for the Audyssey calibration and the table - works pretty well calibrating without a table and then bringing the table doesn't really change much

 

That is really bad practice and should be avoided. The calibration needs to be done with the room in the same state as it will be when listening. A coffee table is a big reflective surface in almost the worst place imaginable. 

 

 

And coffee tables are really a part of furniture that just doesn't sit in place but moved then and there frequently (mine is even with the wheels).

 

I would say that is very unusual and doesn't apply to many people. Best advice is to get rid of the coffee table altogether. Second best advice is that if you can't, then calibrate with it in position but try to dampen down the reflections with books etc (but the books must be there during listening too). Poor dialogue intelligibility is often caused by a coffee table between the centre channel speaker and the MLP.

 

Anyway the practice shown that the table is not the problem in this layout, the resonances between walls is and they are just crazy! So I am sharing what to expect. 

 

I am not sure how you have come to this conclusion as the diagram doesn't show anything of his walls, whether he has treatments or whatever... I’d need to see some measurements and resulting graphs to be able to make that categoric statement you make.  The table is certainly not a problem wrt to the way the OP's sub faces, which was his question ;) But removing it will more than likely improve the SQ.

 

 

Quote:
Until this problem is solved - none of the options will be sounding good. I don't know if he have treatments already, but this was nowhere mentioned and there is nothing in a plan.

 

Again, how do you know it doesn't 'sound good'?  Audyssey is excellent at taming rooms and many (most?) people do not have dedicated rooms and/or rooms with treatments and traps yet they still manage to achieve a good result. Clearly the result will be better with the use of properly used treatments/traps but the OP has already said he cannot change the room (WAF probably) so there's not a lot of mileage in suggesting he starts applying acres of treatments to the walls. 

 

Which version of Audyssey MultEQ are you using?

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