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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1923

post #57661 of 70896
BICEBW?
post #57662 of 70896
Guessing it's a typo for bicbw..."But I could be wrong"
post #57663 of 70896
I used to be fairly well versed in decoding such but lately am seeing ones that I cannot decipher.
post #57664 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

BICEBW?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Guessing it's a typo for bicbw..."But I could be wrong"

But I could easily be wrong.... :)

post #57665 of 70896
My left, center, and right front settings for "flat" and "audyssey" are almost identical...with a huge slope up at higher frequencies. My surrounds, heights, and wides, don't have the same curve. All the speakers are infinity Primus line. I thought it was because the fronts are actually three centers on the floor, well below the mic. I moved them to mic height however get the same curve. It's way to bright for me. Would it help if the speakers were way higher than the mic...like my other speakers? Need to tame the harshness.
post #57666 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

My left, center, and right front settings for "flat" and "audyssey" are almost identical...with a huge slope up at higher frequencies. My surrounds, heights, and wides, don't have the same curve. All the speakers are infinity Primus line. I thought it was because the fronts are actually three centers on the floor, well below the mic. I moved them to mic height however get the same curve. It's way to bright for me. Would it help if the speakers were way higher than the mic...like my other speakers? Need to tame the harshness.

1. What did you measure the FR with?  2. Can you post the graphs please so we can have a look. 3. Also, please describe your measuring technique - 4. what did you use to make the measurements, 5. mic position, 6. number of positions tested, 7. settings in the AVR during testing, 8. testing source material etc.

 

9. Why are you using three 'centre' speakers?  10. Can you post a link to the specs of the speakers? 11. When you say the speakers are 'on the floor' do you mean that literally?  12. They are not on stands - they are on the floor?  If so then they will probably sound pretty bad regardless of what Audyssey does. 13. Can you upload a photo of the room showing the speaker positions for all speakers?

 

Audyssey requires the tweeters to be at the same height as the mic if possible and the mic should be at ear height. If this is not possible the speakers need to be angled toward the MLP.

 

14. Can you confirm that you have run Audyssey in accordance with the Setup Guide, the '101' and the FAQ (all linked in my sig)? It is essential to use the proper practice wrt to mic positioning etc when running Audyssey. 15. Which AVR do you have and 16. what is the version of Audyssey you are using?

 

Sorry for all the questions (I have numbered them in red so you don't miss any when you reply) but without the answers it is impossible to help you.

 

Edit: 17. Have you tried turning Audyssey on and off and observing if the harshness is still there?


Edited by kbarnes701 - 11/24/12 at 3:23am
post #57667 of 70896
I'd guess MS has a Denon or clone, which have a graph for the (I assume) EQ changes.

I've had MEQ/XT/XT32, in that order. Going from MEQ to XT required a mic stand, but no other issues. With XT32, I have to be very careful with tweeter height matching and possibly near reflections (improved by positioning for tweeter height, but I also throw a blanket over the back of the couch.)

If MS has XT32, that could be the basic problem - in my room at least, you really need to play with it ... off say 2" could make a big difference.
post #57668 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

I'd guess MS has a Denon or clone, which have a graph for the (I assume) EQ changes.
 

 

Ah yes - good catch. I agree that mic positioning is important, but he shouldn't be getting all the harshness he describes. Let's see what he says to the other questions - but he might have a faulty mic. His massively off-axis speaker position (on the floor!) is also a prime suspect The FAQ answer on this issue isn't all that satisfactory as it is a very difficult problem to diagnose and solve from long range. I also forgot to ask him if the effect is the same with Audyssey off as with it on - if so, then it's not an Audyssey issue - he hasn't seen the post yet so I will edit that in.

 

a)9.   Why are my high frequencies 'bright' or 'harsh' since running Audyssey? 

post #57669 of 70896
Keith, FJ....Yes, I am referring to the graph with EQ changes my 4311 shows.

Center graph is almost the same. Two reasons I am using Primus PC351's across the front is I wanted identical speakers and the screen goes from floor to ceiling. The fronts are angled up. I am using 153's for the other 8 speakers. Here is shot of the side, surround and rear placement with accompanying graph. No issues there.

You can see the right front height below and accompanying graph. Even with it way above the mic, no issue.

I use a tripod at listening height, tight clusters evenly spaced around mlp. I pretty much clear the floor of everything when running it. Also, I remove the rug in front as well...thought being I can "trick" the program into thinking the room is "brighter' than it is. MJ, from your comment maybe I should be doing the opposite and adding treatments? When I realized I could see the graphs I then raised the three fronts up about two feet...not quite at mic level. It didn't help. I have to check if the harshness is there with it off though.
post #57670 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

Keith, FJ....Yes, I am referring to the graph with EQ changes my 4311 shows.

Center graph is almost the same. Two reasons I am using Primus PC351's across the front is I wanted identical speakers and the screen goes from floor to ceiling. The fronts are angled up. I am using 153's for the other 8 speakers. Here is shot of the side, surround and rear placement with accompanying graph. No issues there.

You can see the right front height below and accompanying graph. Even with it way above the mic, no issue.

I use a tripod at listening height, tight clusters evenly spaced around mlp. I pretty much clear the floor of everything when running it. Also, I remove the rug in front as well...thought being I can "trick" the program into thinking the room is "brighter' than it is. MJ, from your comment maybe I should be doing the opposite and adding treatments? When I realized I could see the graphs I then raised the three fronts up about two feet...not quite at mic level. It didn't help. I have to check if the harshness is there with it off though.

 

Hi Michael - thanks for the additional information. Assuming the front speakers have a reasonable off-axis response, they should be OK even low down. My S150s are mounted low down (aimed at the MLP) and I get no harshness. On thought that occurs is wrt to the response pattern of the main speakers as they are all dedicated centre speakers from what I gather. Are these speakers purpose-designed as centre speakers and may therefore have a different axial response to 'normal' L&R speakers?  What it is about them that makes the manufacturer describe them as 'centre speakers'?  I am not sure it matters, but it would be useful to know. Best practice is for everything that is in the room for listening, to be in the room for measuring. Your room does look as thought it might be a bit 'lively' but even so, it should not cause harshness from the Audyssey calibration.

 

Is this the first Audyssey cal you have done with the same gear in the same room?  I am trying to see if you have ever gotten a good result and suddenly it has changed. Also, when did you buy the Denon?  Was it in the summer?  If so, see the last paragraph of the FAQ answer linked above. You may have a faulty mic.

 

Finally, for now, try the system with Audyssey turned off in the main menu - does it still sound harsh? We need to be sure Audyssey is actually inducing the harshness. If the harshness is there without Audyssey, then it may be the room or something with the speakers themselves.

post #57671 of 70896
Do I need to worry about the mic supplied with the 4311CI that I just ordered?
post #57672 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Do I need to worry about the mic supplied with the 4311CI that I just ordered?

If by "worry", you mean what is the probability that it is defective, I think the odds are extremely low. There have not been that many owners who have reported problems that turned out to be a defective mic. And, IIRC, there have been more defective Onkyo mic's than Denon mic's, BICBW. After your first calibration, if there is a defective mic, it will reveal itself immediately.
post #57673 of 70896
Thank you for the kind reply. That's a relief!
post #57674 of 70896
@ Michaelscott73,

There is definitely something peculiar with the graph for the LR speakers. I have a Denon as well, and my calibrations always result in graphs that show a tapering off of the high frequencies, consistent with the Audyssey target curve. Having the highs increased at the top end is an indication that something is amiss. BTW, as Keith says, you should never alter a room's contents for a calibration. Moving furniture, and especially removing the rug, is a bad practice.

I am not familiar with the type of surround speakers you have, but I assume that they are not "center channel" speakers. To test if the front LR speakers are causing the issue with high frequencies, replace them temporarily with two of the surrounds placed high enough that the tweeters are at the same height as your ears, and re-run the calibration. If the HF frequency response is more normal, then you have isolated the problem, and may need to re-think your choice of front speakers.
post #57675 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Do I need to worry about the mic supplied with the 4311CI that I just ordered?

 

I don't think so, Theresa. The reported problem, as outlined in the FAQ, was due to the extremely hot temperatures the USA enjoyed/endured this summer and the understanding was that this type of mic can be damaged if it is exposed to high temperatures for too long, as they might be, for example, when sitting in the back of a truck for a day or so, in the middle of a heatwave. I am not even sure if this is more of a theory than anything else, but certainly there was a small spate of damaged mics over the summer than one might expect to be typical. I think the chances of this affecting you are very small, and in any case, the mic for your Denon is the same as the mic for the Onkyo is it not?  (Please check the FAQ for more info on that, as I am not sure myself without checking). So if it is, and you suspect a problem, then you can interchange the mics.

 

d)4.   Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro?

post #57676 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

@ Michaelscott73,

There is definitely something peculiar with the graph for the LR speakers. I have a Denon as well, and my calibrations always result in graphs that show a tapering off of the high frequencies, consistent with the Audyssey target curve. Having the highs increased at the top end is an indication that something is amiss. BTW, as Keith says, you should never alter a room's contents for a calibration. Moving furniture, and especially removing the rug, is a bad practice.

I am not familiar with the type of surround speakers you have, but I assume that they are not "center channel" speakers. To test if the front LR speakers are causing the issue with high frequencies, replace them temporarily with two of the surrounds placed high enough that the tweeters are at the same height as your ears, and re-run the calibration. If the HF frequency response is more normal, then you have isolated the problem, and may need to re-think your choice of front speakers.

 

Good call, Jerry. I am also thinking that the prime suspect so far is the use of three 'centre' speakers. I've had a look at the manufacturer's website and the centre speaker in Michael's setup is very different to the L&R speakers of the same set. Using this speaker as a Left and a Right may be the problem and your suggested test may well show it to be so. I am also interested to learn if the harshness is still present even with Audyssey switched off.

post #57677 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't think so, Theresa. The reported problem, as outlined in the FAQ, was due to the extremely hot temperatures the USA enjoyed/endured this summer and the understanding was that this type of mic can be damaged if it is exposed to high temperatures for too long, as they might be, for example, when sitting in the back of a truck for a day or so, in the middle of a heatwave. I am not even sure if this is more of a theory than anything else, but certainly there was a small spate of damaged mics over the summer than one might expect to be typical. I think the chances of this affecting you are very small, and in any case, the mic for your Denon is the same as the mic for the Onkyo is it not?  (Please check the FAQ for more info on that, as I am not sure myself without checking). So if it is, and you suspect a problem, then you can interchange the mics.

d)4.   Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro?

Yes, I went for several months hardly using my a/v system at all both because I was afraid heat might damage it and my only air conditioning was in the bedroom. I spent months sitting in the bedroom with my laptop and headphones on just because of the heat.
The mic has no model number on it.
post #57678 of 70896

FAQ UPDATE!

 

New Question added following user feedback:

 

a)13. Will Audyssey work if I am using external amplification?

post #57679 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't think so, Theresa. The reported problem, as outlined in the FAQ, was due to the extremely hot temperatures the USA enjoyed/endured this summer and the understanding was that this type of mic can be damaged if it is exposed to high temperatures for too long, as they might be, for example, when sitting in the back of a truck for a day or so, in the middle of a heatwave. I am not even sure if this is more of a theory than anything else, but certainly there was a small spate of damaged mics over the summer than one might expect to be typical. I think the chances of this affecting you are very small, and in any case, the mic for your Denon is the same as the mic for the Onkyo is it not?  (Please check the FAQ for more info on that, as I am not sure myself without checking). So if it is, and you suspect a problem, then you can interchange the mics.

d)4.   Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro?

Yes, I went for several months hardly using my a/v system at all both because I was afraid heat might damage it and my only air conditioning was in the bedroom. I spent months sitting in the bedroom with my laptop and headphones on just because of the heat.
The mic has no model number on it.

 

Is the Denon mic the new 'Eiffel Tower' black one?  IIRC the serial/model number is on the little white box not the mic BICBW ;)

post #57680 of 70896
AFAIK its the EIffel Tower mic. I won't get it for a couple of weeks. The Onkyo one is the Eiffel Tower style. I doubt if I could turn up the box for the Onkyo one.
post #57681 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Good call, Jerry. I am also thinking that the prime suspect so far is the use of three 'centre' speakers. I've had a look at the manufacturer's website and the centre speaker in Michael's setup is very different to the L&R speakers of the same set. Using this speaker as a Left and a Right may be the problem and your suggested test may well show it to be so. I am also interested to learn if the harshness is still present even with Audyssey switched off.
So with Audyssey off the sound is much smoother at reference level. I would almost agree with your assessment , however here is the graph for the center, when I raised it about two feet, but still below mic level. I use a very tight cluster...never going wider than the actual speaker. With this being said the center shouldn't have the same characteristics as the left and right. Next up is the swap with the surrounds.
post #57682 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

FAQ UPDATE!

New Question added following user feedback:

a)13. Will Audyssey work if I am using external amplification?

I guess it wasn't a dumb question. Thanks for the help
post #57683 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

I use a very tight cluster...never going wider than the actual speaker.

What do you mean, never going wider than the actual speaker? Your first measurement point should be on the exact center line between the left and right speakers, where you sit, and with the mic at exactly ear height. Subsequent measurements should be within 1-2 feet on either side of the MLP, in parallel with the MLP, also 12-18 inches in front of the MLP, and finally (if not too close to the back wall) 12-18 inches behind the MLP. You should take all 8 measurments. Is this approximately how you are measuring?
post #57684 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

What do you mean, never going wider than the actual speaker? Your first measurement point should be on the exact center line between the left and right speakers, where you sit, and with the mic at exactly ear height. Subsequent measurements should be within 1-2 feet on either side of the MLP, in parallel with the MLP, also 12-18 inches in front of the MLP, and finally (if not too close to the back wall) 12-18 inches behind the MLP. You should take all 8 measurments. Is this approximately how you are measuring?
The speaker is 2 feet wide. I go from center, to right edge, to left edge, up 1 foot, left edge center right edge, the the back two locations....same as the chart for 8 locations.
post #57685 of 70896
^^^

two things...

- all of your measurements should be taken from "inside" the main speakers...

- cluster your positions closer to the "first measuring position"... keep in mind that after the first measurement, you aren't measuring "seating positions", you are merely providing audyssey with more data about your room...
post #57686 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

AFAIK its the EIffel Tower mic. I won't get it for a couple of weeks. The Onkyo one is the Eiffel Tower style. I doubt if I could turn up the box for the Onkyo one.

ITYF that the two mics are interchangeable.

post #57687 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post


The speaker is 2 feet wide. I go from center, to right edge, to left edge, up 1 foot, left edge center right edge, the the back two locations....same as the chart for 8 locations.

Are you putting the mic up near the speaker or are these measurements from the listening position?

post #57688 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnifeGuy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

FAQ UPDATE!

New Question added following user feedback:

a)13. Will Audyssey work if I am using external amplification?

I guess it wasn't a dumb question. Thanks for the help

 

It was a good question IMO and I can see why it was asked. Also the point about the gain matching is a good one, although not directly relevant to your question. Who knows how many others might wonder the same thing and not ask?  

post #57689 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

The speaker is 2 feet wide. I go from center, to right edge, to left edge, up 1 foot, left edge center right edge, the the back two locations....same as the chart for 8 locations.

If I understand correctly, you are talking about never going outside the edge of the center speaker, correct? Just thinking out loud, if the left and right speakers have a narrow horizontal dispersion, then your tight measurement pattern could be placing the mic outside of the dispersion of the two speakers. To compensate for what Audyssey is seeing as a drop-off of the high frequencies, it may be applying a boost, which may be why it sounds so bright.

If you are going to recalibrate anyway, you might consider a measurement pattern that places the spots on the left and right of the MLP further out so that the mic is even with the tweeters on the left and right speakers. It may be worth a try.

Edit: I believe you said the speakers are angled upwards. In addition, are the left and right speakers pointing to the MLP? If not, this is something else you might try. Many of us aim our left and right speakers so they point directly at the MLP.
post #57690 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Good call, Jerry. I am also thinking that the prime suspect so far is the use of three 'centre' speakers. I've had a look at the manufacturer's website and the centre speaker in Michael's setup is very different to the L&R speakers of the same set. Using this speaker as a Left and a Right may be the problem and your suggested test may well show it to be so. I am also interested to learn if the harshness is still present even with Audyssey switched off.
So with Audyssey off the sound is much smoother at reference level. I would almost agree with your assessment , however here is the graph for the center, when I raised it about two feet, but still below mic level. I use a very tight cluster...never going wider than the actual speaker. With this being said the center shouldn't have the same characteristics as the left and right. Next up is the swap with the surrounds.

 

 

Hmmm. If the sound is audibly less harsh with Audyssey off, then it does point to an Audyssey issue. So for some reason, Audyssey 'thinks' you have a lot less HF energy than you do and is boosting the high end accordingly.
 
Would you be able to download REW and do the test suggested in this FAQ answer (oldmovienut's suggestion in italics near the bottom of the answer):
 
 
That would help us rule out a mic problem. 
 
But before you consider that, do the swap with the surrounds that Jerry suggested. Still seems to me, so far, that it's a problem caused by the axial response of those 'centre' speakers.
 
I don't suppose you know anyone with the same/similar AVR who could lend you his mic so you can do a comparison. Make sure the mic is compatible though:
 
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