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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1924

post #57691 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
two things...
- all of your measurements should be taken from "inside" the main speakers...
- cluster your positions closer to the "first measuring position"... keep in mind that after the first measurement, you aren't measuring "seating positions", you are merely providing audyssey with more data about your room...
Cluster them less than the foot apart I am already using?
post #57692 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

Cluster them less than the foot apart I am already using?

I don't know for sure what Chris is recommending, but unless the left and right speakers are pointed at the MLP, I would not tighten up the measurement points. You didn't answer my question--are the left and right speakers angled inwards as well as upwards so they are pointing directly at the MLP?
post #57693 of 70892
^^^

i misunderstood his post... when i read "on the outside of the speaker", i interpreted that to mean "on the outside of the main speakers"...

understanding what he now said, i'm in agreement with the path you are bringing him down... smile.gif
post #57694 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post


The speaker is 2 feet wide. I go from center, to right edge, to left edge, up 1 foot, left edge center right edge, the the back two locations....same as the chart for 8 locations.

Are you putting the mic up near the speaker or are these measurements from the listening position?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
two things...
- all of your measurements should be taken from "inside" the main speakers...
- cluster your positions closer to the "first measuring position"... keep in mind that after the first measurement, you aren't measuring "seating positions", you are merely providing audyssey with more data about your room...
Cluster them less than the foot apart I am already using?

 

Michael - I'm getting a bit confused now. You do have the mic at the Main Listening Position for the first measurement, right? And up at ear level, pointing up to the ceiling? Then you are taking the remaining measurements at a minimum of 1 foot spacings, preferably 2 foot spacings?  What are you using to support the mic during measuring - a tripod or a mic stand or what?

post #57695 of 70892
Tripod, pointed at ceiling, ear height, 1st is mlp (aligned with the center of the center channel). 2nd is a foot to the right (right edge of center channel speaker, it's two feet wide) 3rd is left edge of center speaker. 4th is closer 1 foot to screen, staying aligned with left edge, 5th is to right 1foot, 6th is to right another foot (now I'm at right edge of speaker again. 7 and 8 is behind mlp 1 foot evenly spaced.
AJ, I don't have them angled in...good suggestion.
Thank you gentleman, I have a lot of homework. I will report back.
post #57696 of 70892
^^^

ah, now i understand... smile.gif and brings up something we kinda ignore in this thread, which is "make sure you have the best starting point with your mains before doing anything"...

if you are going to try toeing your speakers in (which is a good idea), your homework assignment increases.... you'll want to find the "best" amount of toe in to create the soundstage/image before running eq...

this can be tedious, but is worth it... pick a "good" recording... toe them a bit, listen... toe them a bit more, listen... lather, rinse, repeat... this may (read: will) take several hours, but will be worth it...

the other thing you will want to do in addition to experimenting with toe in is also experiment by moving your speakers around a bit... even a few inches can make a rather large difference... how do you have them set up now? are the close to room boundaries? are the distances from the side wall/front wall "different"? etc.

warning: you are about to enter the rabbit hole... tongue.gif
post #57697 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

Tripod, pointed at ceiling, ear height, 1st is mlp (aligned with the center of the center channel). 2nd is a foot to the right (right edge of center channel speaker, it's two feet wide) 3rd is left edge of center speaker. 4th is closer 1 foot to screen, staying aligned with left edge, 5th is to right 1foot, 6th is to right another foot (now I'm at right edge of speaker again. 7 and 8 is behind mlp 1 foot evenly spaced.
AJ, I don't have them angled in...good suggestion.
Thank you gentleman, I have a lot of homework. I will report back.

OK - that seems like a pattern that should work. Do you have two feet of the tripod on the floor and one on the couch? The plot thickens...

 

Did you see my note re using REW to determine if the mic is OK?

post #57698 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

warning: you are about to enter the rabbit hole... tongue.gif

An infinite one at that!
post #57699 of 70892
And it's quite a rabbit hole. I've often wondered about the placebo effect. I've tried using my wife (serious music lover) for A/B comparisons, but she usually doesn't hear any difference.

Back on topic...
I have 2 subs, one quite a bit larger than the other (SVS and a Mirage BPS-150i). After XT32 calibration, I needed to "equalize" the subs - otherwise, the Mirage was almost silent. Is this normal
post #57700 of 70892
^^^

lol, yea... with many twists, turns and dead ends... tongue.gif

i'll throw out a recommendation, since i haven't done it in awhile... anyone who is "new" to room acoustics (and even some of us who are "old" to it) will benefit greatly from buying "the master handbook of acosutics" by f. alton everest... 25 bucks from the big river, and it will be the best 25 bucks ever spent... very easy to understand, it's written in a language that us humans can comprehend... smile.gif

once the concepts of "how sound works" are understood, the path down the rabbit hole becomes a lot easier... smile.gif
post #57701 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
ah, now i understand... smile.gif and brings up something we kinda ignore in this thread, which is "make sure you have the best starting point with your mains before doing anything"...
if you are going to try toeing your speakers in (which is a good idea), your homework assignment increases.... you'll want to find the "best" amount of toe in to create the soundstage/image before running eq...
this can be tedious, but is worth it... pick a "good" recording... toe them a bit, listen... toe them a bit more, listen... lather, rinse, repeat... this may (read: will) take several hours, but will be worth it...
the other thing you will want to do in addition to experimenting with toe in is also experiment by moving your speakers around a bit... even a few inches can make a rather large difference... how do you have them set up now? are the close to room boundaries? are the distances from the side wall/front wall "different"? etc.
warning: you are about to enter the rabbit hole... tongue.gif

Chris,

I agree with everything you recommend. However, before he gets to what I call the "fine tuning", I think he should try aiming the left and right speakers directly at the MLP to see if this is a root cause of the excessive highs. If yes, then of course he should try the incremental changes you suggest. It's kind of like a carpenter roughing it in, and finishing it out later. Just my HO.
post #57702 of 70892
I picked up a Denon AVR for a bedroom 5.1 system with surrounds mounted on the wall behind the headboard.  I am concerned that MultEQ XT will boost the highs too much because of this arrangement?  I could temporarily raise them to calibrate ....

Thanks,

Jeff
post #57703 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I am concerned that MultEQ XT will boost the highs too much because of this arrangement?
IF that happens, then why not simply turn down the treble?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I could temporarily raise them to calibrate ....
You would have to raise the speakers, causing Audyssey to report incorrect levels & distances, bring the speakers back down, manually fix levels & distances. Isn't that an unnecessarily elaborate way to do something simple (tone control)?
post #57704 of 70892
If you use the tone controls you automatically turn off Audyssey. High price to pay.
post #57705 of 70892
On the Denon using the tone controls defeats Audyssey?

Chris (K) warns that the highs may be so diminished that Audyssey will detect them as subs and give a speaker type error. If that doesn't happen, the highs will be boosted. If the former occurs, and maybe the latter as well, I will have to raise them so the mic can "see" them and return them to their normal locations after setup. I typically reduce the level and increase the distance for the surrounds as they are (in this system's usage) more for ambiance.

Jeff
post #57706 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

If you use the tone controls you automatically turn off Audyssey. High price to pay.

Not on my Onkyo.  Must be receiver/brand dependent.

post #57707 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

If you use the tone controls you automatically turn off Audyssey. High price to pay.

Not true, only Dyn EQ. Audyssey works fine with tone control.
post #57708 of 70892
@jerry...

yea, i agree... smile.gif got a bit ahead of myself there... redface.gif
post #57709 of 70892
I have read quite a bit on this forum, researched, etc. for my first home theater project.

It all went pretty well, my stuff is entry level and I'm just getting into the basics now.

I have an Epson 3020 projector, a Denon AVR-1613 and the Energy Take Classic 5.1 system, with fronts, center, rears and one sub.

I followed lots of instructions on here, did speaker break-in as recommended by Energy, etc. etc.

I ran Audyssey setup, everything seemed to calibrate fine, all distances were very close to actual physical distances.

I am generally very pleased with the sound, especially considering I paid $349 for a receiver and $399 for the speakers.

However, i have the following questions:

1) Audyssey set my subwoofer at -5db, which is well within the acceptable range and that allowed by Denon receivers (-12db to +12db). Some guides seem to indicate that tweakers generally prefer to adjust their subs to the range of -3 to +3db. If I choose to do this, to increase bass response a bit, will that negate all of my other Aduyssey settings?

2) what is the Cinema EQ setting in my Denon AVR 1613, how does it work with Audyssey, and should I turn it on or off?

3) it seems my crossovers were set pretty high after calibration, i.e. 100hz range for my fronts (I think) and 120hz for surrounds. These Take Classics, for those unfamiliar, are very small sats with a dedicated 8", 200 watt sub. I would have thought the crossovers would be set much lower, i.e in the range of 80-90hz, to push almost all bass to the sub since the sats are very small. Everything I have read here, in teh guide etc, states that it is ok to raise the crossover after calibration, but not to lower, because that will result in a hole... Any thoughts on whether these crossovers are too high? Should I prefer to lower them a bit to move bass away from the tiny sats and into the sub or just leave it?

Thanks from a newbie.
Edited by bigman69 - 11/26/12 at 1:01pm
post #57710 of 70892
1) note that the +/- 3dB thing is just a "tweaker" obsessive goal, there is no reason that -5dB is "bad" at all. Also note that raising the sub a bit to increase the bass is not at all the same thing -- the point of that +/- 3dB is a calibration "target", for the reference level, NOT what you choose to change it to after calibration. So if you want more bass, bump the sub up. Don't worry about the +/- 3dB thing.

2) Cinema EQ is an older form of something similar to what Audyssey does -- it applies an EQ which rolls off the high frequencies to help translate brighter movie soundtracks into the home environment. The Audyssey "reference" curve (what you get if you have MultEQ set to the default "Audyssey" setting) does the same thing, so by turning Cinema EQ on you would be using a "double roll-off' of the high frequencies. So, in short, leave Cinema EQ off unless you find the high frequencies to be too bright in your room.
post #57711 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

1) note that the +/- 3dB thing is just a "tweaker" obsessive goal, there is no reason that -5dB is "bad" at all. Also note that raising the sub a bit to increase the bass is not at all the same thing -- the point of that +/- 3dB is a calibration "target", for the reference level, NOT what you choose to change it to after calibration. So if you want more bass, bump the sub up. Don't worry about the +/- 3dB thing.
2) Cinema EQ is an older form of something similar to what Audyssey does -- it applies an EQ which rolls off the high frequencies to help translate brighter movie soundtracks into the home environment. The Audyssey "reference" curve (what you get if you have MultEQ set to the default "Audyssey" setting) does the same thing, so by turning Cinema EQ on you would be using a "double roll-off' of the high frequencies. So, in short, leave Cinema EQ off unless you find the high frequencies to be too bright in your room.

Thanks batpig, oh Denon expert!

I am not sure I want to change the -5db setting for the sub, just thinking about it...Does it make any difference if I change the setting from -5db to -3db in the receiver, or simply increase the volume knob on the sub?

Also, sorry, one other question...it seems different sources are louder than others...for example, watched Arthur Christmas in 3d, and had it at about -9db volume level, didn't seem super loud, kids and wife put up with it just fine! On the other hand, Ghost Protocol was on about -18db, and seemed pretty loud too...is such a difference among movies somewhat normal? Seems most people prefer -20db to -10db for "normal" home theater type listening, as opposed to the 0db reference level.
post #57712 of 70892
the rule of thumb is, after calibration, to not touch the knobs on the subwoofer and make all adjustments in the receiver. The benefit of this is that you can always revert back to the calibrated setting precisely, which wouldn't be the case for a knob on the subwoofer.

volume variance among sources is totally normal. Also note that if you are using Dynamic Volume this will impact things a lot, and will react differently to different mixes. Few home listeners actually listen at full "reference" (0dB) and 10-20dB below reference is typical. Action movies will also generally be louder overall, so it isn't abnormal that you couldn't crank the volume as loud on Ghost Protocol because of the loud action effects. If you want to turn it up more to hear the dialogue but find the effects overwhelming, that's when you want to use Dyn Vol to tame the dynamic range.
post #57713 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigman69 View Post


Also, sorry, one other question...it seems different sources are louder than others...for example, watched Arthur Christmas in 3d, and had it at about -9db volume level, didn't seem super loud, kids and wife put up with it just fine! On the other hand, Ghost Protocol was on about -18db, and seemed pretty loud too...is such a difference among movies somewhat normal? Seems most people prefer -20db to -10db for "normal" home theater type listening, as opposed to the 0db reference level.

Yes, it's normal and common. Just set it where it's comfortable. I listen to most movies at -25 to -23 below reference level, but there are some others that need to be turned up as high as -15 to get reasonably audible.
post #57714 of 70892
How do you know if Audyssey set the mains to match subwoofer properly?
post #57715 of 70892
^^^

if i understand the question correctly, you measure...

keep in mind that "audyssey" doesn't set the crossovers, the avr does... and also keep in mind that it's a "simple" process the avr uses to determine this, which almost always results in incorrect speaker size settings and/or too low of a crossover...
post #57716 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
if i understand the question correctly, you measure...
keep in mind that "audyssey" doesn't set the crossovers, the avr does... and also keep in mind that it's a "simple" process the avr uses to determine this, which almost always results in incorrect speaker size settings and/or too low of a crossover...

How can you test to see if they are off?
post #57717 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigman69 View Post

3) it seems my crossovers were set pretty high after calibration, i.e. 100hz range for my fronts (I think) and 120hz for surrounds. These Take Classics, for those unfamiliar, are very small sats with a dedicated 8", 200 watt sub. I would have thought the crossovers would be set much lower, i.e in the range of 80-90hz, to push almost all bass to the sub since the sats are very small. Everything I have read here, in teh guide etc, states that it is ok to raise the crossover after calibration, but not to lower, because that will result in a hole... Any thoughts on whether these crossovers are too high? Should I prefer to lower them a bit to move bass away from the tiny sats and into the sub or just leave it?
Thanks from a newbie.

For a satellite system, those crossovers are actually pretty respectable. When I first set up my HT, I had a set of Orb Audio speakers (3" driver "full" range spheres) with a similar 8", 200W reflex sub. With these spekers I'd get crossovers set anywhere from 120hz to 200hz. I've since replaced these with Paradigm Millenia One satellites (2 way with a 4" ported mid driver) and an SVS SB12-NSD subwoofer. In the same locations, the LCR Paradigms measured at a 60hz crossover. I didn't believe this, so I raised it to 80hz.

There's nothng wrong with the crossovers at which your system is set. There are two things that are important though. The sub must have sufficient upper end extension to adequately reproduce frequencies up to and somewhat above the crossover point. This probably isn't a problem with your sub. Also, the sub location should be near the front soundstage since frequencies above about 80hz are "localizable" for most people. If the sub is too far away you may start to notice things like the lower registers of male dialogue being displaced.
Edited by davelr - 11/27/12 at 8:52am
post #57718 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigman69 View Post

3) it seems my crossovers were set pretty high after calibration, i.e. 100hz range for my fronts (I think) and 120hz for surrounds. These Take Classics, for those unfamiliar, are very small sats with a dedicated 8", 200 watt sub. I would have thought the crossovers would be set much lower, i.e in the range of 80-90hz, to push almost all bass to the sub since the sats are very small. Everything I have read here, in teh guide etc, states that it is ok to raise the crossover after calibration, but not to lower, because that will result in a hole... Any thoughts on whether these crossovers are too high? Should I prefer to lower them a bit to move bass away from the tiny sats and into the sub or just leave it?

Your question suggests to me that you might be misunderstanding what the value of the crossover frequency does. It does the opposite of what I think you're saying.

The crossover frequencies are related to the small speakers, not to the subwoofer. Frequencies below the crossover are diverted from the small speakers to the subwoofer. Frequencies above the crossover continue to be sent to the small speakers.

As an example, you could consider anything below 500 Hz to be bass As you raise the crossover frequency from 100Hz to 200Hz (for example), more of those bass frequencies (the ones between 100 and 200 Hz) get diverted from the small speakers to the subwoofer. In other words, raising the crossover frequency moves more bass away from the tiny sats and into the sub. In contrast, lowering the crossover from 100 Hz to 80 Hz causes the frequencies between 100Hz and 80Hz to be allowed through to the small speakers and not to be diverted to the subwoofer -- frequencies that the small speakers are just too tiny to reproduce.

I hope this clarifies things a little.
post #57719 of 70892
Hi Chris,

I have a Denon 2311ci and I run Audyssey several times before without issues. About 2 months ago we had to put a some additional furniture in our living room and I decided to re-run Audyssey. I run all 6 measurements and the analysis froze on 96%. I waited for more than 1/2 hour and I stopped it (got back to the menu). I reset the microporcessor - didn't work; I unplugged the receiver for 10+ min. and I tried again with 1 measurement and it did work! Thinking that the un-plugging fixed the issue, I re-run Audyssey with 6 measurements and it froze again on 96%... I tried more than 15 times that day with different combinations if re-setting, un-plugging and number of measurements and none of them worked... So, I called Denon and I brought the receiver for service. After it was serviced, I run 5 measurements and it froze again at 96%. One measurement didn't work either, so I reset the microprocessor and 1 measurement worked. I tried again with 5 measurements and the analysis again froze at 96%...

So, before I bring the receiver again for service, my question is: Is it possible that because of the amount of the furniture in my room that more than certain amount of measurements cause the "freezing" issue? How long is a reasonable amount of time to wait - 10 min.? 20 min.?

Thanks a lot!
post #57720 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olbi View Post

Hi Chris,
I have a Denon 2311ci and I run Audyssey several times before without issues. About 2 months ago we had to put a some additional furniture in our living room and I decided to re-run Audyssey. I run all 6 measurements and the analysis froze on 96%. I waited for more than 1/2 hour and I stopped it (got back to the menu). I reset the microporcessor - didn't work; I unplugged the receiver for 10+ min. and I tried again with 1 measurement and it did work! Thinking that the un-plugging fixed the issue, I re-run Audyssey with 6 measurements and it froze again on 96%... I tried more than 15 times that day with different combinations if re-setting, un-plugging and number of measurements and none of them worked... So, I called Denon and I brought the receiver for service. After it was serviced, I run 5 measurements and it froze again at 96%. One measurement didn't work either, so I reset the microprocessor and 1 measurement worked. I tried again with 5 measurements and the analysis again froze at 96%...
So, before I bring the receiver again for service, my question is: Is it possible that because of the amount of the furniture in my room that more than certain amount of measurements cause the "freezing" issue? How long is a reasonable amount of time to wait - 10 min.? 20 min.?
Thanks a lot!

Something is faulty with the Denon. The furniture has nothing to do with the freezing and there should not be an amount of time to wait. Audyssey should just do what it has to do and finish at 100% right away.
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