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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1927

post #57781 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Cubic not square, Stuart wink.gif

That was a typo. So what are your dimensions that got you to 1000 cubic ft:)?

The reason I ask is that our living room where we have our HT is 23' x 17' x 8.5' (L x W x H), according to our condo plans, which works out to over 3300 cubic feet according to a calculator. I can't imagine a room 1/3 the size of ours with those two Submersives, considering that I'm perfectly happy with two HSU ULS-15s in our space. Your bass must be deadly!
Edited by sdrucker - 11/30/12 at 9:42am
post #57782 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

That would produce the most accurate calibration, since the boom can be used to place the mic at the appropriate head position while the stand is sitting on a solid, non-vibrating floor. If the microphone vibrates because its stand is more-or-less sitting on the sofa itself, it'll compromise the calibration.


Thanks but how about placing the tripod on the floor in front of the main listening position?
Then the microphone would be a couple of feet closer to the front speakers, and farther from rear-surrounds, than your head would normally be. This can make a noticeable difference in the quality of the calibration, too.

Until you get a boom-stand, using the tripod with one leg on the sofa is likely to produce an adequate calibration. It's a compromise, but so is most of life!
post #57783 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Then the microphone would be a couple of feet closer to the front speakers, and farther from rear-surrounds, than your head would normally be. This can make a noticeable difference in the quality of the calibration, too.
Until you get a boom-stand, using the tripod with one leg on the sofa is likely to produce an adequate calibration. It's a compromise, but so is most of life!

How about if my speakers are in ceiling?
post #57784 of 70896
I don't think that makes any difference.

Just go with the suggestions above -- tripod with one leg on the sofa and the other two legs on the floor. This is how I used to do it before I had a boom stand, not a big deal. It's important to get the mic pretty close to the "sweet spot" for that first measurement point because that's the point from where the distances and levels get set.

Remember people over-obsess about the details here on this thread wink.gif It would better if you had a boom stand but you will get perfectly adequate results doing it this way too.
post #57785 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atren View Post

Virtual speakers meaning it uses the present left and right for the DSX wide speakers.

I'm still not quite understanding what you mean but the bottom line is that the DSX speakers (heights and wides) are PHYSICAL speakers, you are literally supposed to put another pair of speakers out there if you want to use the effect.

Quote:
But I am assuming 9.1 would connect 2 more speakers "Lw and Rw" in the 60 degree front position. I am using all of the 7.1 speaker connections on my SR6006 (correction from previous post its not the SR6007) but it does support Audyssey.

You have a 7 channel receiver, and you are using 7 channels. You are out of room wink.gif

If you want to run "wides" with your current receiver you need to sacrifice the surround back channels (that's why they are "assignable" if you want to use them for some other purpose). If you want to run 9 channels, you need a 9 channel receiver.
post #57786 of 70896
@clan...

don't make the mistake of equating the "gain" knob on the sub with a "voulme control"...
post #57787 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Then the microphone would be a couple of feet closer to the front speakers, and farther from rear-surrounds, than your head would normally be. This can make a noticeable difference in the quality of the calibration, too.
Until you get a boom-stand, using the tripod with one leg on the sofa is likely to produce an adequate calibration. It's a compromise, but so is most of life!

How about if my speakers are in ceiling?

Then you have another compromise to make. frown.gif

Many in-ceiling speakers have tweeters which can be pointed in various directions. For the best results, they should be pointed toward the main listening position.

Unfortunately, Audyssey is optimized for floor-standing speaker systems with their tweeters at the same level as your ears. Their recommendation is that the flat top of the microphone be pointed straight up toward the ceiling, perpendicular to the direction to the speakers. That's rather hard to accomplish when the speakers are overhead frown.gif Some people have tried tilting the microphone in different directions during the calibration, but the consensus seems to be just to orient the microphone vertically.
post #57788 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

@clan...
don't make the mistake of equating the "gain" knob on the sub with a "voulme control"...

Not sure what you mean, but I want to understand. My sub has 3 knobs, phase, x/o and volume(which is what I'm referring to as gain).

This may be off topic but it's because of the way Audyssey has me configured as to why I'm asking this part. I know my sub is underwhelming for my room size. That said, even if I had a sub that was way more powerful and had more output wouldn't Audyssey configure it to have the same output as my current sub meaning I would have to dial down the volume of that sub before I got into the +-12db frame of reference for Audyssey? And once that's done, throwing out 'musicality' and every other characteristic that a quality powerful sub can produce, wont the output of my current sub and a quality sub from the prime listening position have the same output?

Going from there, outputs being equal, will the quality of the other sub then just perform 'musically' better than my current sub? (And when I say musically I don't mean music I just mean up and down the frequency range along with all other sound terminology).

Lets say I went the other way and downgraded my sub in sheer output, but a better quality driver and ran Audyssey. I would assume that my gain/volume on the sub would be turned up higher than my current sub, to reach the same output levels... Does what I'm saying make sense and do any of my theories have any truth or is it complete fail?

Thanks again.
post #57789 of 70896
clanmjc,

To first approximation, your deductions are correct.

One of the subtleties you didn't mention is the "low frequency extension" of whatever subwoofer you get. Subs which can reach lower frequencies generally cost quite a bit more and need (include) much more powerful amps in order to be able to drive those lower frequencies to reference levels.
post #57790 of 70896
Excellent! I ran Audessey last night (XT only) and my old speakers are mostly dialed in. i have two questions:

do I set the Mains to small after processing or before? They were large when I did the calibration and I changed them after. If they need to be set to small before, then I need to recalibrate. Will the system hold more than one calibration or store more than one setting? Can I save a setting after tweaking manually?

Also, when I make small manual tweaks, it there a way to save that configuration? I turn center up because we are hard of hearing and turn the sub down because it's a little muddy...


Thanks everyone!!
post #57791 of 70896
you make changes AFTER -- when Audyssey runs it ignores all settings and wipes the slate clean.

the important thing to understand is that the EQ filters are *independent* of the basic speakers settings (size, distance, level, etc). Audyssey calculates a filter that covers the entire measured operating range of the speaker, so regardless of where you set the crossover the entire audio spectrum will be equalized/filtered. The only exception to this is if you *lower* a crossover below where it was set, because the receiver sets the crossover as low as possible by default -- anything below that point is outside of the measured operating range and thus unfiltered by Audyssey. But as long as you are only *raising* crossovers you are fine.

same goes for speaker level tweaks -- bumping up the center and lowering the sub a bit to suit your preference doesn't hurt anything. Although before you do that you should experiment with some of the other settings, for example, if you find that boomy bass and dialogue intelligibility are a particular issue when watching TV from your cable box, then you probably should just use the Dynamic EQ Refernece Level Offset instead, which will tone down what Dynamic EQ is doing.
post #57792 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by clanmjc View Post

Lets say I went the other way and downgraded my sub in sheer output, but a better quality driver and ran Audyssey. I would assume that my gain/volume on the sub would be turned up higher than my current sub, to reach the same output levels... Does what I'm saying make sense and do any of my theories have any truth or is it complete fail?

there are some confusions here -- "quality" isn't necessarily the same thing as overall output, and the gain knobs on different subs aren't going to be the same. For example, if one sub ends up with the knob at 1/2 to produce 75dB on the test tone chirp, and the other sub requires the knob to only be at 1/4, it doesn't necessarily mean the second sub is more powerful. They could just have a different design with the way the knob interacts with the gain structure of the amp.

so you shouldn't obsess about the position of the knob -- you put it where it needs to be for that particular sub's design to produce the desired output.

Quote:
That said, even if I had a sub that was way more powerful and had more output wouldn't Audyssey configure it to have the same output as my current sub meaning I would have to dial down the volume of that sub before I got into the +-12db frame of reference for Audyssey? And once that's done, throwing out 'musicality' and every other characteristic that a quality powerful sub can produce, wont the output of my current sub and a quality sub from the prime listening position have the same output?

you are correct that both subs would be calibrated to the same level of output -- i.e., if you are listening to the same movie at the same volume with both subs calibrated, and the movie has a special effect that requires 95dB of output from the sub, both subs will produce that same level of output at that same volume level after calibration.

the differences are a few things -- one sub may be able to achieve that output much more easily, because it is bigger and more powerful. This may not matter so much at low volumes but when you start to crank it up, the weaker sub will run out of steam before the better sub does. So everything might be hunky dory in the above example at 95dB, but if you turn it up 10dB and now the subs have to pressurize the room at 105dB, the worse sub may not be up to the task and either fail to produce enough output or hurt itself trying to do so (bottoming out, port noise, etc).

there also is the point of extension that Selden mentions above. Sub A (el cheapo) may be fine producing 105dB in overall output, but it is "tuned" to have most of its output in the easier mid-bass frequencies (e.g. 60-80Hz or so) and rolls off very quickly below, say, 40 Hz. This is typical of many big "budget subs" like the BIC, they can sound really loud and boomy because a lot of the audible parts of the bass effects are in that ~60Hz range, but it can't actually pressurize the room at the ultra low bass octaves (40Hz down to 20Hz and below). Producing these frequencies with a lot of pressure (SPL) requires a lot more energy, plus driver size and cabinet displacement.
post #57793 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Then you have another compromise to make. frown.gif
Many in-ceiling speakers have tweeters which can be pointed in various directions. For the best results, they should be pointed toward the main listening position.
Unfortunately, Audyssey is optimized for floor-standing speaker systems with their tweeters at the same level as your ears. Their recommendation is that the flat top of the microphone be pointed straight up toward the ceiling, perpendicular to the direction to the speakers. That's rather hard to accomplish when the speakers are overhead frown.gif Some people have tried tilting the microphone in different directions during the calibration, but the consensus seems to be just to orient the microphone vertically.


So by having in ceiling speakers I wasted my time with Audyssey?
post #57794 of 70896
Audyssey should still produce an improved listening experience compared to not using it at all, especially for the subwoofer. It just can't do as good a job as it can with more conventional speakers. Unfortunately, there often are overriding circumstances resulting in the need for an in-wall or in-ceiling speaker system.
post #57795 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Audyssey should still produce an improved listening experience compared to not using it at all, especially for the subwoofer. It just can't do as good a job as it can with more conventional speakers. Unfortunately, there often are overriding circumstances resulting in the need for an in-wall or in-ceiling speaker system.

Would XT or XT32 help?
post #57796 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

What is the HDMI digital output?  The only HDMI outputs on my unit are those to the screen.

Actually, you can pass audio and video out over HDMI (an option in the 80.2). I guess this is so you can provide audio data to a TV.
post #57797 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Would XT or XT32 help?

No. The issue is with the calibration mic and the intended orientation vis-a-vis the sound source; it is designed to be 90° from the source. Generally, for most systems, that means pointed towards the ceiling. But with in-ceiling speakers, that would point the mic directly at the speakers. In this case, I think you would find that the highs were attenuated too much as Audyssey tries to compensate for what it thinks are too much high frequencies.
post #57798 of 70896
ahh ok crap! Im now feeling the need to upgrade my reciever to the SR7007 but i dont have $1400 to spare :-(

Damn it anyone want to buy an SR6006 for 700 bucks

SR7007 extra speaker connections so you dont run out!
post #57799 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

there are some confusions here -- "quality" isn't necessarily the same thing as overall output, and the gain knobs on different subs aren't going to be the same. For example, if one sub ends up with the knob at 1/2 to produce 75dB on the test tone chirp, and the other sub requires the knob to only be at 1/4, it doesn't necessarily mean the second sub is more powerful. They could just have a different design with the way the knob interacts with the gain structure of the amp.
so you shouldn't obsess about the position of the knob -- you put it where it needs to be for that particular sub's design to produce the desired output.

Yeah that was more of a "in theory and if the volume knobs meant the same thing between the subs, I realize each subs volume knob is relative for that sub.
Quote:
you are correct that both subs would be calibrated to the same level of output -- i.e., if you are listening to the same movie at the same volume with both subs calibrated, and the movie has a special effect that requires 95dB of output from the sub, both subs will produce that same level of output at that same volume level after calibration.
the differences are a few things -- one sub may be able to achieve that output much more easily, because it is bigger and more powerful. This may not matter so much at low volumes but when you start to crank it up, the weaker sub will run out of steam before the better sub does. So everything might be hunky dory in the above example at 95dB, but if you turn it up 10dB and now the subs have to pressurize the room at 105dB, the worse sub may not be up to the task and either fail to produce enough output or hurt itself trying to do so (bottoming out, port noise, etc).
there also is the point of extension that Selden mentions above. Sub A (el cheapo) may be fine producing 105dB in overall output, but it is "tuned" to have most of its output in the easier mid-bass frequencies (e.g. 60-80Hz or so) and rolls off very quickly below, say, 40 Hz. This is typical of many big "budget subs" like the BIC, they can sound really loud and boomy because a lot of the audible parts of the bass effects are in that ~60Hz range, but it can't actually pressurize the room at the ultra low bass octaves (40Hz down to 20Hz and below). Producing these frequencies with a lot of pressure (SPL) requires a lot more energy, plus driver size and cabinet displacement.

This is exactly what I was looking for, thanks.
post #57800 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atren View Post

ahh ok crap! Im now feeling the need to upgrade my reciever to the SR7007 but i dont have $1400 to spare :-(

Damn it anyone want to buy an SR6006 for 700 bucks

SR7007 extra speaker connections so you dont run out!

just so you are clear, the Marantz 7007 is STILL only a 7 channel receiver. It (being a near twin of the Denon 3313ci) features the extra speaker binding posts on the back to allow you to connect up to 11 channels of speakers, but it can still ONLY play 7 channels at once (standard 5.1 plus your choice of surround back, front height, or front wide). You can choose which two extra speakers you can play depending on the content, but it isn't a 9 channel unit.

In fact, Marantz doesn't make a 9 channel receiver AFAIK. You would need to step over to Onkyo or Denon's higher end units for that.
post #57801 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

just so you are clear, the Marantz 7007 is STILL only a 7 channel receiver. It (being a near twin of the Denon 3313ci) features the extra speaker binding posts on the back to allow you to connect up to 11 channels of speakers, but it can still ONLY play 7 channels at once (standard 5.1 plus your choice of surround back, front height, or front wide). You can choose which two extra speakers you can play depending on the content, but it isn't a 9 channel unit.
In fact, Marantz doesn't make a 9 channel receiver AFAIK. You would need to step over to Onkyo or Denon's higher end units for that.

Yeah i dont want 9 channels I dont remember ever seeing Blu Ray supporting more than 7.1. The Audyssey setup can do whatever it does and still have the back speakers surround speakers. But from what I read here on this thread it seems you are better off with the Audyssey Lw and Rw speakers then using the rear surrounds since the side surrounds are adequate. In other words i suppose my SR6006 is good enough! Thanks for saving me all that agravation and money
post #57802 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Good point, Roger. But without in any way wanting to disrespect the OP's sub, a 1000 watt 'peak' sub that retails for $425 isn't going to be a powerhouse of a sub is it? I wouldn't even consider it enough for my very small (1000 cu ft) HT.
Now you're talkin'! Even then, that will largely depend on what sort of playback levels he expects to enjoy.
post #57803 of 70896
I have a onkyo 818 with xt32.

I have a 7.3 setup 2 subwoofers are the same and one is different . Whst do you recommend doing for the sub eq
post #57804 of 70896
The 818 has XT32 but does NOT have the SubEQ HT portion. So the subs are all calibrated as a single unit -- which means you should set them up following the multiple sub guidelines in the FAQ. Then once they are set just run MultEQ on top and it will set delay, level and EQ for the combined response.
post #57805 of 70896
Forgive me if this has been asked before : What would be the cheapest way (ofcourse excluding the ARC system 2 price) to use Audyssey Arc system 2 on a HTPC, with an Asus Essence STX sound card, for just audio playback in home 2 channel setup.

Thanks...
post #57806 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The problem with placing the mic on the couch is that it might pick up vibrations through the couch as the couch is hardly a stable place to stand the mic. If so, this can throw off your calibration. The mic must, as you know, be placed at ear/tweeter height. Before I bought a boom mic stand (highly recommended for only about $20 from Amazon) I used to use my photographic tripod and I had to rest two legs on the chair and one on the floor. This seemed to work but was awkward to use and prolonged the measurement/calibration time. If you are happy with the result Audyssey is giving you, then you are probably OK using your current method - but the recommendation really has to be to spring the 20 bucks for a stand.

Are you suggesting use a boom mic stand instead on the couch or on the floor?

 

Floor.

 

d)1.   Do I really need to put the Audyssey mic on a tripod or stand?

post #57807 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

What is the HDMI digital output?  The only HDMI outputs on my unit are those to the screen.

Actually, you can pass audio and video out over HDMI (an option in the 80.2). I guess this is so you can provide audio data to a TV.

Ah yes - good point. But not with Audyssey active of course.

post #57808 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by clanmjc View Post

Firstly thanks for the great reply!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That is a heck of a space to fill with bass. Your sub is a 15 inch unit powered by a 1000 watt amp but it's still a huge space to fill and I'd say that the sub was underpowered. Even a couple of Submersives would not be  comfortable in such a huge space IMO, and many are using 4 Submersives in much smaller rooms (Submersives have two 15 inch drivers each and 2400 watt amps).

 

 

You are very welcome!

 

 

Quote:
That is impression I've always had, that's why it was odd to me that Audyssey didn't like my sub gain anywhere near my previous setting was (5.5ish). I figured the volume of room might even require me to bump up the gain to get an Audyssey level under +12db, boy was I wrong. Instead it's between 2 and 2.5 gain which is dare I say nada. My sub is about 7.5' from my main listening position. The funny thing is my main listening position is right in front of the center of my room, which is kind of a null area... again I figured this would play into needing to boost the sub gain. Contrary to my belief the opposite happened.

 

 

Remember that the control on the sub is a gain control not a volume control. Think of it as attenuating the input to the sub. The sub amp will still deliver its max output, but from a lesser input.

 

You can't EQ your way out of a null - if you are sitting in a null, this will explain your lack of perceived bass. The only way to deal with a null is to move it by moving the sub or the MLP, or to treat the room to diminish its effects. If you are in a null, turning up the volume achieves nothing, other than putting a lot of strain on the amp and speaker involved. Think of it like two opposing forces of equal strength - just pushing harder on both sides doesn't actually achieve anything other than to physically wear out the pushers.

 

Quote:
I really do think I've been running my bass way too hot, so I need to let my ears adjust a little bit, what I will do though is increase the gain so I'm in the -10 to -8db range and boost my levels from there. I don't have a boom stand but I do use a tripod. However I actually have the tripod completely on top of the leather sofa, which has soft cushions. I know a boom stand would be better, however in the meantime would it be better for me to have 2 feet on the floor and 1 foot on the couch when running the measurements? Will couch vibrations effect sub woofer level within audyssey?

 

 

Couch vibrations could find their way into the mic. I am not saying this is what is happening because I don't know, but it is possible. If so the mic may 'see' the vibrations as signal and Audyssey will adjust accordingly. It could also throw off the time domain correction because vibrations through the couch will arrive quicker than sound waves through the air. Try it with two feet on the floor and one on the couch. Re-read the FAQ section to clue yourself in better before you try it:

 

d)1.   Do I really need to put the Audyssey mic on a tripod or stand?

 

Quote:
One other question, since I've already ran Audyssey and Dynamic EQ is turned on, during setup will this have any adverse effects to my levels or will Dynamic EQ be auto disengaged during the setup process?

Thanks so much.

 

DEQ is ignored during setup.

post #57809 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by clanmjc View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

But without in any way wanting to disrespect the OP's sub

None taken, in fact I totally agree, which boggles my mind as too why I need to turn down the gain. I guess what I don't understand is, lets say I replace my current sub with an epik/submersive/SVS/HSU high end big boy, would Audyssey be requiring me to lower the gain on them even more than my current sub all things being equal? Is audyssey setting the level trim based on output or something else (or in conjunction with)
Quote:
Maybe the OP can confirm the listening distance for us.

7.5'

My subs gain nob goes from 0 to 10 - Audyssey wants it at 2.3ish for a good trim, it seems like I'm not even using my sub. It's as if my sub is way too powerful for my room at least from my listening position, of course based on everything I've read and researched the sub is under powered for my size room but what does that mean.

 

The Submersive would be fine - in my 1000 cu ft room I have two of them and Audyssey sets my trim at about -5dB. The gain knob on the Submersive is like one or two clicks from the minimum.

 

The latter doesn't matter - the knob is a gain control not a volume control and the sub is still delivering its maximum capability, but from a lower input. You are not 'wasting' any of the sub.

 

Let's not worry about the sub being underpowered for the time being - let's try to correct the issue you are having. The mention of the null worries me - can you move the sub, albeit temporarily, to another position in the room?  Do you have an SPL meter?

post #57810 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Once I run Audyssey if the avr gives me results of +3 does this mean the sub is running hot? I guess what I am asking is if anything below 0 is fine and above 0 is hot.

No - if it is calibrated it is calibrated to reference. To run it hot you would have to turn up the volume yourself. Your result means that Audyssey needs to set it at +3 to hit reference. 

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