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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1932

post #57931 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

the FAQ doesn't talk about changing the low pass because you SHOULDN'T. Leave it max'd out -- the point is to get it out of the way because bass management is handled digitally in the processor (receiver).
The thing about raising but not lowering refers to the crossovers in the RECEIVER. That's the part you are missing wink.gif

ah ok. thanks to both.

i didn't realize that the receiver could override the sub-woofer physical dial setting. so leave it at max permanently even after calibration and being used day to day. check!
post #57932 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by aliaskary77 View Post

ah ok. thanks to both.
i didn't realize that the receiver could override the sub-woofer physical dial setting. so leave it at max permanently even after calibration and being used day to day. check!

Here's another tip for Ya. Many subwoofers have separate inputs (sometimes called LFE, or maybe something else) that bypass the internal LPF (Low Pass Filter) and the phase adjustment circuitry but the gain control is still available. Refer to your sub's Manual to check out the above (or you may advise the brand/model no. for further help). Then you won't have to worry about accidental mis-adjustment, like during dust cleaning, etc. Some even put a little Scotch tape on the gain control knob to avoid same mishap. smile.gif

Hope this helps. smile.gif
post #57933 of 70884
This is the RM6750 5.1 set. The sub also says RM6750.

There is no LFE input. The only things are:

Input L and R. I connected to the receiver using L. Was told its digital and wont matter which you connect to and dont need both L and R inputs, just use either one.
Speaker inputs which are not used as they speakers are hooked up to the receiver.
Phase flip switch, 0 and 180. Set to 0.
Low pass 80 to 150, now set to 150.
Volume, currently set to middle.

I will probably try to calibrate tomorrow now as kids are home.

Thanks again for the help.


Edited by aliaskary77 - 12/7/12 at 1:14pm
post #57934 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by aliaskary77 View Post

ah ok. thanks to both.
i didn't realize that the receiver could override the sub-woofer physical dial setting. so leave it at max permanently even after calibration and being used day to day. check!


A bit of semantics but, your receiver cannot override anything on the subwoofer. All your receiver is doing is limiting the signal that is going to the subwoofer. The reason people suggest you leave the subwoofer crossover on the highest setting is because this gives the receiver the flexibility to control the entire signal w/o the potential of losing signal (accidentally).
post #57935 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by aliaskary77 View Post

quick question before doing an audyssey calibration on a denon 1612 with polk 5.1 system.
I have read the FAQ few times but something still not clear to me.
When starting off, bass phase should be 0 degrees, volume about half way, and low pass (I assume is crossover) is set to max, which is 150 on my unit. (goes from 80 to 150)
I am then supposed to do the first position, then hit calculate. if need be, adjust volume and repeat to be within +-3db.
At no point does the faq talk about changing the low pass setting again. can anyone clarify if i should be doing something with that at any point please. The only thing i read is that you can raise it if i like, but not to lower it. Sounds like i am missing something in the middle.
Thanks.

That's right if you don't have a defeat switch on your sub set the low pass to the highest setting and always leave it there after calibration. That also applies to Audysssey once it is calibrated do not lower but you can raise. Of course in the end it is preference vs reference and how it sounds to you.

 

It's right to set the LPF on the sub to the highest setting (or to disable it if that is offered) but the advice to raise but not lower wrt to Audyssey is about the crossover in the AVR and has nothing to do with the physical controls on the sub. The controls on the sub should NOT be touched after running Audyssey (unless it is for the purpose of running Audyssey again with, for example, a higher or lower gain setting on the sub.

post #57936 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holiday121 View Post

Might be a silly question but u ordered a tripod with boom arm but the thread is about double the size if the bottom of the mic.
Is this usual and do I need another piece

Yes, you do. It's a separate adapter piece. I think Keith put it in the FAQ somewhere.


Max

 

I did - it's in here - referred to as the 'gadget you need'

 

d)1.   Do I really need to put the Audyssey mic on a tripod or stand?

post #57937 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by aliaskary77 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

the FAQ doesn't talk about changing the low pass because you SHOULDN'T. Leave it max'd out -- the point is to get it out of the way because bass management is handled digitally in the processor (receiver).
The thing about raising but not lowering refers to the crossovers in the RECEIVER. That's the part you are missing wink.gif

ah ok. thanks to both.

i didn't realize that the receiver could override the sub-woofer physical dial setting. so leave it at max permanently even after calibration and being used day to day. check!

It's not that it overrides it so much as you need to get it out of the way - if you have a crossover set on the sub and another in the AVR then they will not work together properly - you will in effect be using two crossovers. By defeating the XO on the sub (if it has a defeat switch) or raising it to the maximum you effectively bypass it altogether and this means you are setting the XO in the AVR, and just once.

post #57938 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by aliaskary77 View Post

This is the RM6750 5.1 set. The sub also says RM6750.

There is no LFE input. The only things are:

Input L and R. I connected to the receiver using L. Was told its digital and wont matter which you connect to and dont need both L and R inputs, just use either one.
Speaker inputs which are not used as they speakers are hooked up to the receiver.
Phase flip switch, 0 and 180. Set to 0.
Low pass 80 to 150, now set to 150.
Volume, currently set to middle.

I will probably try to calibrate tomorrow now as kids are home.

Thanks again for the help.

Yes, you have it!

post #57939 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's not that it overrides it so much as you need to get it out of the way - if you have a crossover set on the sub and another in the AVR then they will not work together properly - you will in effect be using two crossovers. By defeating the XO on the sub (if it has a defeat switch) or raising it to the maximum you effectively bypass it altogether and this means you are setting the XO in the AVR, and just once.

A crossover means part of the signal to one speaker is sent to another speaker instead. What two speakers are involved here?
post #57940 of 70884
Thanks that's what I get for not reading before I buy lol
post #57941 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by aliaskary77 View Post

This is the RM6750 5.1 set. The sub also says RM6750.

There is no LFE input. The only things are:

Input L and R. I connected to the receiver using L. Was told its digital and wont matter which you connect to and dont need both L and R inputs, just use either one.
Speaker inputs which are not used as they speakers are hooked up to the receiver.
Phase flip switch, 0 and 180. Set to 0.
Low pass 80 to 150, now set to 150.
Volume, currently set to middle.

I will probably try to calibrate tomorrow now as kids are home.

Thanks again for the help.


The settings you listed are correct, but just to be 100% sure, you ARE connecting the LFE out from the receiver to the L input of the sub right? Don't connect only the L out from the avr to the L input on the sub.


Max
post #57942 of 70884
smile.gif

yep. the "subwoofer" output on the receiver shown at the very center of the image below is connected to the "line in" L of the subwoofer with a subwoofer cable.

post #57943 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by aliaskary77 View Post

smile.gif
yep. the "subwoofer" output on the receiver shown at the very center of the image below is connected to the "line in" L of the subwoofer with a subwoofer cable.

"RCA cable" wink.gif
post #57944 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVLDARI View Post

"RCA cable" wink.gif

lol, yes i bet that's all it is. got it last year when worked a couple of seasonal shifts just for giggles at the big box store and got this for like $4.
post #57945 of 70884
I posted this over in the Onkyo TX-NR818 thread and have not got a responce and thought I could get some help here.

Hi All ,

I have had my 818 for a little over a week and I need some help with my sub set up. I have a dual sub set up fed by a single amp that is all ultra 2 rated, with that being said the manual for the amp says that if I have a THX rated receiver that I need to turn the THX setting on the amp to yes this disables the gain control and boundry gain control on the amp and the receiver will control everything when I turn the U2 setting on for the sub control. The issue I am having when you run the Audyssey set up I cant set the db level for the subs because the gain control is disabled and after I run the set up my sub distance is .5 feet and have a -12.5 offset when they are about 13.5 away. If I shut the THX stuff off I get a distance of 24 feet and a -5.5 offset. I would just go with which one sounds better but I want to make sure my set up is right and I am not feeling it right now. Any ideas on how I can get it where it needs to be?

Thanks.
post #57946 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by sullivt5 View Post

I posted this over in the Onkyo TX-NR818 thread and have not got a responce and thought I could get some help here.

Hi All ,

I have had my 818 for a little over a week and I need some help with my sub set up. I have a dual sub set up fed by a single amp that is all ultra 2 rated, with that being said the manual for the amp says that if I have a THX rated receiver that I need to turn the THX setting on the amp to yes this disables the gain control and boundry gain control on the amp and the receiver will control everything when I turn the U2 setting on for the sub control. The issue I am having when you run the Audyssey set up I cant set the db level for the subs because the gain control is disabled and after I run the set up my sub distance is .5 feet and have a -12.5 offset when they are about 13.5 away. If I shut the THX stuff off I get a distance of 24 feet and a -5.5 offset. I would just go with which one sounds better but I want to make sure my set up is right and I am not feeling it right now. Any ideas on how I can get it where it needs to be?

Thanks.

 

Odd. Audyssey usually ignores any settings in the AVR when it does its measurements. The result with the sub at 0.5 feet is clearly wrong, so there's no point pursuing that. I'd run it with the THX thing shut off on the amp and let Audyssey and the AVR take control. Distance of 24 feet and trim of -5.5 all sounds fine to me.

 

What is it you are not feeling?  The bass?  Check this out:

 

f)5.    Since I ran Audyssey everything sounds great - but where has my bass gone?


Edited by kbarnes701 - 12/8/12 at 5:36am
post #57947 of 70884
@Keith,
I believe he's referring to the settings on the sub amp, not the AVR.


@sullivt5 -
Set the sub amp to THX OFF is the resolution.
post #57948 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

@Keith,
I believe he's referring to the settings on the sub amp, not the AVR.


@sullivt5 -
Set the sub amp to THX OFF is the resolution.

 

Ah yes, I did realise that but still gave the usual advice that Audyssey ignores the settings in the AVR :)  True, but useless info in this case :)  I'll strike it through on my post.

post #57949 of 70884
I'm using a Mirage BPS400 sub with which has a LFX input, the problem is when using the LFX input it bypasses the volume control too, when I run XT32 it has the sub level at -12. I changed the input to use the R input and I have the crossover set to max and I put volume control on 1 out of 10 to achieve 75dbs, after calibration the trims are now set at -3.5. I understand that the sub is now calibrated at 75dbs but the overall bass sounds very weak, also by using the L or R input I'm now using the crossover in the sub and the receiver which will cause a loss of 6dbs, I wish I could use the LFX input to avoid such a loss.
post #57950 of 70884
Searching for a reason of excessive brightness of Audyssey calibration did some measurements today. First I have discovered there is a bug in REW affecting my previous measurements, so if anyone looked at them - they are compete crap, forget about them.

Today I was able to only measure Front Left channel, had no time for others, but still some interesting results...

So. The picture number 1. REW sweep to HDMI in of Onkyo TX-NR818 in "Stereo" mode, taking signal from the speaker wires to the external ADC.
(REW is calibrated in advance with this loop as ADC have roll-offs at 20Hz and 20kHz by about 3dB). Audyssey mode is Movie.


The picture number 2 is the measurements done by Audyssey microphone of the same left front speaker but with my Dell Latitude E6500 mic. input (the external ADC didn't work with the mic.).
Three measurements - with the mic pointing vertically to ceiling at the height of tweeter and at the ear height (ears are above tweeters ~10cm, there is difference in responce, but not where I expected), also one measurement from the same position (arount 1m from speaker) with mic pointing directly to the tweeter, not the proper placement, but just in case, simply was interesting, what is the difference...


The speakers are MonitorAudio RX6.

Any thoughts...?
post #57951 of 70884
@Mike^
Hi. I can think of two simple solutions for tonight. If using the LFX input produces exactly the level of bass you want then you're done. Don't be concerned that the sub output it is likely above reference, as when it is set to reference using the L or R input, it sounds weak to you anyway.

If on the other hand using the LFX input produces too much bass, then continue using the L or R input, simply trim up the sub ch trim in the AVR until you're happy with the sound.
post #57952 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Searching for a reason of excessive brightness of Audyssey calibration did some measurements today. First I have discovered there is a bug in REW affecting my previous measurements, so if anyone looked at them - they are compete crap, forget about them.
Today I was able to only measure Front Left channel, had no time for others, but still some interesting results...
So. The picture number 1. REW sweep to HDMI in of Onkyo TX-NR818 in "Stereo" mode, taking signal from the speaker wires to the external ADC.
(REW is calibrated in advance with this loop as ADC have roll-offs at 20Hz and 20kHz by about 3dB). Audyssey mode is Movie.

The picture number 2 is the measurements done by Audyssey microphone of the same left front speaker but with my Dell Latitude E6500 mic. input (the external ADC didn't work with the mic.).
Three measurements - with the mic pointing vertically to ceiling at the height of tweeter and at the ear height (ears are above tweeters ~10cm, there is difference in responce, but not where I expected), also one measurement from the same position (arount 1m from speaker) with mic pointing directly to the tweeter, not the proper placement, but just in case, simply was interesting, what is the difference...

The speakers are MonitorAudio RX6.
Any thoughts...?

 

I use REW all the time to measure my audio response.  To be honest, I'm not following how you are taking your REW measurements, so it is difficult to interpret your graphs.   What do you mean, "...taking signal from the speaker wires to the external ADC"?  And are you using the Audyssey mic with REW?  This won't work very well, because there is no microphone calibration file for the Audyssey mic.

 

Here is the REW procedure I use.  Please tell me how your procedure is different.

 

- I connect a mic (EMM-6, with calibration file) to a mixer (Xenyx 502), which in turn feeds a USB external soundcard (SoundBlaster X-Fi), which is connected to a laptop running REW.

- I place the mic at ear level at the MLP, with the mic facing the ceiling.

- After calibrating the mic level, I run sweeps and generate response graphs.  A typical response graph (1/12 smoothing) looks like this:

 

700

 

Both your graph and my graph show the gentle high-frequency roll-off, which corresponds to the Audyssey target curve. BTW, forget the graph where the mic is pointed at the speaker--it is meaningless.  I don't see any indication why your speakers should sound excessively bright.

 

Your graph looks significantly different at the lower frequencies (partly because you use a different vertical scale).  Not sure why there are such large variances there.  Are you using a sub?

post #57953 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I don't see any indication why your speakers should sound excessively bright.

The first graph is measuring the receiver only, not speakers. It is what Audyssey calibration done to the receiver (in Movie curve). It clearly shows why it is so bright after calibration, with Music/Flat curve it will be even worse.

The measurement with Audyssey mis is done not to get the response of speakers, but the Audyssey mic. itself as there is suspect that it is faulty. I have no other mic. at the moment to properly measure accoustical response, but even now it is clear that high frequencies are over amplified.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Your graph looks significantly different at the lower frequencies (partly because you use a different vertical scale).  Not sure why there are such large variances there.  Are you using a sub?

Yes, I am using a sub.
post #57954 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

The first graph is measuring the receiver only, not speakers. It is what Audyssey calibration done to the receiver (in Movie curve). It clearly shows why it is so bright after calibration, with Music/Flat curve it will be even worse.

If you want to measure the receiver only, you need to measure the AVR's pre-out connection, not the speaker wires.
post #57955 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

If you want to measure the receiver only, you need to measure the AVR's pre-out connection, not the speaker wires.

Do you really see the difference? it is pretty much the same signal... And I don't pass pre-outs to the speakers biggrin.gif
post #57956 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Do you really see the difference? it is pretty much the same signal... And I don't pass pre-outs to the speakers biggrin.gif

I'm just saying, if you want to measure what Audyssey is doing to the signal, you measure the pre-outs. If you want to know how the Audyssey filters affect the sound in your listening room, you measure the frequency response using a calibrated microphone at various listening spots.

If you observe that the Audyssey signal, measured at the pre-out, is excessively boosting the high frequencies, this can mean several things:

- Audyssey is compensating for a deficiency in the speakers' high-frequency output.
- Audyssey is compensating for an unusually dead listening room.
- There is something wrong with the Audyssey mic.

Only the frequency response measurement at the MLP will reveal whether the mic is bad. Just my opinion...
post #57957 of 70884
Just purchased the adapter thanks for the help greatly appreciated
post #57958 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I'm just saying, if you want to measure what Audyssey is doing to the signal, you measure the pre-outs.

OR the outs, i.e. - speaker wires. As my speakers are powered by speaker outs and not pre-outs I measure them. Receiver could even have no any pre-outs, but in my case it is simply more convenient to access the speaker wires than pre-outs. If you think there is a difference - argument it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

If you want to know how the Audyssey filters affect the sound in your listening room, you measure the frequency response using a calibrated microphone at various listening spots.

I will do it when it arrives. Unfortunately waiting for it more than 2 weeks already frown.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

If you observe that the Audyssey signal, measured at the pre-out, is excessively boosting the high frequencies, this can mean several things:
- Audyssey is compensating for a deficiency in the speakers' high-frequency output.

There are measurement done by some well trusted parties such as Stereophile and some others, all show those speakers have no such deficiencies in high frequencies. And I am fully satisfied with them when listening without Audyssey - the HF sounds exactly right then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

- Audyssey is compensating for an unusually dead listening room.

The room is very bright, concrete walls, no special treatments, very reflective at HF, so it is not my case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

- There is something wrong with the Audyssey mic.

This is what I suspect... But want to be sure, so asking opinions here. Would be good to hear from people who had issues with the mic. and actually measured something...
post #57959 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I'm just saying, if you want to measure what Audyssey is doing to the signal, you measure the pre-outs.

OR the outs, i.e. - speaker wires. As my speakers are powered by speaker outs and not pre-outs I measure them. Receiver could even have no any pre-outs, but in my case it is simply more convenient to access the speaker wires than pre-outs. If you think there is a difference - argument it.
 

 

There is no difference at all between the signal at the preouts and the signal at the speaker terminal, other than level. If you are connecting the speaker terminals to your soundcard I am amazed (and impressed) that you haven't fried it. Soundcards are not designed to accept these high level inputs. If I were you I would follow AustinJerry's advice and start using the preouts - there's no difference at all and you won’t be out buying a new soundcard next week!

 

You are right that the speakers are powered by the speaker outs, but the signal the speaker outs receives is identical to the signal the preouts put out, except at a much higher level. If you want to measure the result of MultEQ filtration in the room (at the MLP), then again you need to follow Jerry's advice and use the mic in the room to measure the acoustic output of the speakers in the room.

 

You seem to be conflating two different things. Measuring at the preouts will show you the MultEQ filter that Audyssey is creating in order to correct whatever problems Audyssey has detected with the room. To measure the effect of that filter (or filters) you need to measure the actual acoustic output in the room itself, with the mic at the listening position.

 

To determine if the mic is faulty or not, you will ideally need a known good mic to use as a reference. Connect the mic and, with Audyssey turned OFF, measure a sweep from it, using the preout terminals. Then put the suspect mic in the exact same position and, with Audyssey turned off, measure a sweep from it, using the preouts. Then compare the results. If the suspect mic graph differs significantly from the graph of the reference mic, then there is likely a problem with the suspect mic. The graph will reveal that problem. For example, if the suspect mic graph shows a substantial roll-off at the upper end of the FR (compared with the known good mic), then Audyssey will try to correct for that and it will boost the treble and cause the system to sound overly bright or harsh. You can do this without a reference mic and if there is a really obvious problem (like a massive HDF roll-off) you can probably come to a reasonable conclusion that the mic is faulty, but if you have access to a known good mic, your result will be much more certain.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 12/9/12 at 3:28am
post #57960 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There is no difference at all between the signal at the preouts and the signal at the speaker terminal, other than level. If you are connecting the speaker terminals to your soundcard I am amazed (and impressed) that you haven't fried it

I surely know about level difference and taking care of that smile.gif
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