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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1940

post #58171 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I want to invest maybe on the 4311 but I'm only interested on the xt32 simply because I don't have room for more than a 5.1 set up. I won't be using more than one sub. On the other hand I would like to maybe consider the 818 because of the xt32 and thx. Other than that the 818 has no other use for my set up. What to do??

 

If you are absolutely sure you will not ever use more than one sub and 5.1, you'd probably be better going for the 818 as it is much cheaper. If you pop over to the 818 thread, there are links there showing them on sale right now for less than $800. XT32 is the same in both the 4311 and the 818, other than the dual subs thing (which you don't need). THX is nice to have and brings some extra doodads with it, plus the THX DSPs but IMO it isn’t worth paying the difference in cost for it.

 

Edit: poster in the 818 thread says Newegg have the 818 for $679 with free shipping:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412714/onkyo-tx-nr818-official-owners-thread-discussion/3420#post_22706319


Edited by kbarnes701 - 12/15/12 at 6:48am
post #58172 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I might consider the 4311. It mentions on the site something about disengaging the internal amp. Can someone explain what that's all about?

If you are using the 4311 as a prepro with external amplification, the 4311 allows you to physically disconnect the internal amps (usually they just sit there doing nothing even though they are 'on'). 'Audiophiles' might believe there is a difference in the final SQ if the internal amps can be switched off - probably, the theory goes, because of reduced noise interference or something. In reality it seems to me highly unlikely anyone would be able to hear a difference, but it can do no harm so it's not a bad thing per se.

Incidentally, the 4311, IMO, makes a terrific 'prepro' regardless of what we might think of that feature - it has XT32, properly configurable dual sub outlets, a great overall spec and - the icing on the cake - it is Audyssey Pro ready too. All for just over a grand.

actually keith, in the 4311, they do just sit there doing nothing, even in "pre-amp" mode... they aren't turned "off", they are idling along...

as you note, it makes no difference, unless someone is looking for boogeymen under the bed... wink.gif
post #58173 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I might consider the 4311. It mentions on the site something about disengaging the internal amp. Can someone explain what that's all about?

If you are using the 4311 as a prepro with external amplification, the 4311 allows you to physically disconnect the internal amps (usually they just sit there doing nothing even though they are 'on'). 'Audiophiles' might believe there is a difference in the final SQ if the internal amps can be switched off - probably, the theory goes, because of reduced noise interference or something. In reality it seems to me highly unlikely anyone would be able to hear a difference, but it can do no harm so it's not a bad thing per se.

Incidentally, the 4311, IMO, makes a terrific 'prepro' regardless of what we might think of that feature - it has XT32, properly configurable dual sub outlets, a great overall spec and - the icing on the cake - it is Audyssey Pro ready too. All for just over a grand.

actually keith, in the 4311, they do just sit there doing nothing, even in "pre-amp" mode... they aren't turned "off", they are idling along...

as you note, it makes no difference, unless someone is looking for boogeymen under the bed... wink.gif

 

They do?  Well I never... so what is the 'switch' thing for that the Denon has then for use as a prepro?  Surely it isn't........ marketing??  ;)

post #58174 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

They do?  Well I never... so what is the 'switch' thing for that the Denon has then for use as a prepro?  Surely it isn't........ marketing??  wink.gif

Well, the signal is no longer passed to the speaker posts, so it is doing something. Whether the amps are turned off or not really doesn't matter much, IMO. An idling amp is not likely to draw much power or generate much heat.
Edited by AustinJerry - 12/15/12 at 8:50am
post #58175 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Your English, as always, Feri, is impeccable - and way better than our Hungarian!!  Curvyness is word I do believe. 

Curviness is the word, according to my Audyssey assistant, and she otta know.
post #58176 of 70896
From my understanding, the 4311's .2 calibration versus the 818's is that it measures delay and level from each sub versus the 818 which has 2 sub outlets but only treats them as a single channel internally.

If you have two different subs at different non symmetrical positions, the 4311 will correct for the delay.

If you have 2 of the same sub, equal distances from the main listening position (side to side, front to back or corner to corner) then the 4311 doesn't do anything different than the 818 as the delay settings become irrelevant.

At this point the only difference is to get the levels at the sub to match. With the 818, when audessey tells you to adjust the sub gain until it reaches 75db, do it with one sub, then turn that sub off, do it with the other sub, then hit next, then turn them both on. Then let audesey do its thing. At this point the subs combined should be running 3db too loud. Audesey should automatically correct by adjusting the sub preamp -3db.

The other way to get it spot on is to adjust each sub to 72db, and then turn them both on, they should read 75db combined.

So, if adjusting the gains one time and getting them to balance is too much of a pain, spend the extra on the Denon. Otherwise save some money and go for the 818 which seems to be a better receiver all around save for the discrete .2 sub pretty out.
post #58177 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Your English, as always, Feri, is impeccable - and way better than our Hungarian!!  Curvyness is word I do believe. 

Curviness is the word, according to my Audyssey assistant, and she otta know.

 

That's the word!

 

This Audyssey Assistant - is that a Denon thing then. I have looked but I definitely didn't get one of these with my 5509. Nice bottom end on that speaker...

post #58178 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

They do?  Well I never... so what is the 'switch' thing for that the Denon has then for use as a prepro?  Surely it isn't........ marketing??  wink.gif

Well, the signal is no longer passed to the speaker posts, so it is doing something. Whether the amps are turned off or not really doesn't matter much, IMO. An idling amp is not likely to draw much power or generate much heat.l

 

I agree. It must be just a, er, switch I guess.

post #58179 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

From my understanding, the 4311's .2 calibration versus the 818's is that it measures delay and level from each sub versus the 818 which has 2 sub outlets but only treats them as a single channel internally.

If you have two different subs at different non symmetrical positions, the 4311 will correct for the delay.

If you have 2 of the same sub, equal distances from the main listening position (side to side, front to back or corner to corner) then the 4311 doesn't do anything different than the 818 as the delay settings become irrelevant.

At this point the only difference is to get the levels at the sub to match. With the 818, when audessey tells you to adjust the sub gain until it reaches 75db, do it with one sub, then turn that sub off, do it with the other sub, then hit next, then turn them both on. Then let audesey do its thing. At this point the subs combined should be running 3db too loud. Audesey should automatically correct by adjusting the sub preamp -3db.

The other way to get it spot on is to adjust each sub to 72db, and then turn them both on, they should read 75db combined.

So, if adjusting the gains one time and getting them to balance is too much of a pain, spend the extra on the Denon. Otherwise save some money and go for the 818 which seems to be a better receiver all around save for the discrete .2 sub pretty out.

 

Agreed.

 

Setting the levels is easy, as you say. Setting the delays (distances) is non-trivial though. It's no use setting the physical distances from the subs to the MLP because almost all subs induce a delay due to internal processing, hence Audyssey usually setting the distances significantly greater than reality. It is OK of course if the subs are co-located or equidistant from the MLP as you suggest - in that case the 818 represents excellent value.

 

The 4311 still has more to offer though - 11 channels potentially (with the addition of an external 2 ch amp), proper config for dual subs (might be useful in the future if sub positions change) and the 4311 is Pro-ready for anyone who might want to go there. Of course, whether these features are worth the additional cost, only an individual can decide.

post #58180 of 70896

when my system was 5.1, i did use my Marantz only as a preamp and there is no switch to cut the current on the built-in amps because

the top of the receiver would get warm even when not used.

post #58181 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

This Audyssey Assistant - is that a Denon thing then. I have looked but I definitely didn't get one of these with my 5509.
Yes, the "Virtual Audyssey Assistant" is a big reason I always chose Denon over Onkyo.

...Nice bottom end on that speaker...
And an awesome (Pro audio) rack.
post #58182 of 70896
Would xt32 blend the sub better to not sound boomy at times or would a second sub take care of that?
post #58183 of 70896
Yes XT 32 will indeed reduce boominess and smooth the bass towards a reference, flat FR. That's the first step most folks take. And BTW DEQ will restore the bass lost when listening at low levels in a way very pleasing to the ear.

However, it is always a good idea to do what you can to improve the SQ in the room prior to applying Audyssey. So, for ex., you might want to experiment with moving the sub a bit, and perhaps even shifting MLP, to lessen the boominess. That is referred to as a sub crawl. It can be done by ear and is easier and more effective if you use a measuring system like OmniMic.

A second sub is nice too, and would be the third step. Again, though, placement of the subs in the room really makes a difference and a measuring system is the way to go.
post #58184 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Would xt32 blend the sub better to not sound boomy at times or would a second sub take care of that?

 

It depends on why the sub is 'boomy'. Could be that it's in a bad place in the room. If so then XT32 can help a bit there as it can cut peaks very effectively in the bass region. If the boom is caused by room modes, XT32 is less effective there and bass traps are the real answer (as well as finding the best place in the room for the sub, in relation to the MLP). A second sub almost always helps create less seat to seat variance and can also help with nulls, but you have doubled your location problems (and your expense!) and it can be trickier to set up dual subs.

 

EDIT: SoM beat me to it while I was typing. 

post #58185 of 70896
Maybe he should put his sub on air dried maple blocks with big brass balls.
post #58186 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by H Stevens View Post

Maybe he should put his sub on air dried maple blocks with big brass balls.

 

LOL!!!  You were in the WOW! thread I assume?  If you want a really entertaining read, go to the Mapleshades website and check out the 'free upgrades' section.

post #58187 of 70896
My secret is incense, candles, and "herbal remedy." Totally subjectivist of course.
post #58188 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

LOL!!!  You were in the WOW! thread I assume?  If you want a really entertaining read, go to the Mapleshades website and check out the 'free upgrades' section.

Yes, I read that thread and I did check out Mapleshades. I quickly clicked away because I thought my computer was going to get hijacked!
post #58189 of 70896
 placement of the subs in the room really makes a difference and a measuring system is the way to go.

I have the sub in the right place because I did the crawl and were it is that's were I got the flattest response.
post #58190 of 70896
^Excellent. So what does the unsmoothed FR graph at MLP below 300Hz look like now with no DSP room correction?
post #58191 of 70896
Just a test sweep with TX-NR818 mic. I don't have the mic calibration and no soundcard calibration since I use HDMI. Not sure how much smoothing is usually used so I used the lowest value. When UNMIK-1 arrives I'll do it again of course. I was expecting bigger difference in mids and highs because when listening to music, judging by my ears, audysses muffles mids and raises the highs which doesn't sound as nice as with audyssey bypassed.Comments?


post #58192 of 70896
What was your goal in doing this measurement?
post #58193 of 70896
Confirming how uncalibrated my ears really are smile.gif
Listening to music with audyssey doesn't sound as I was expecting (muffled mids and too sharp highs) so I would like to determine how biased my ears are and/or confirm if audyssey is making it sound "wrong". In any case I would like to improve the sound and I am thinking by comparing measurements when I am making changes it should be easier. I was advised to move to this thread by kbarnes701.
post #58194 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by strumf666 View Post

Confirming how uncalibrated my ears really are smile.gif
Listening to music with audyssey doesn't sound as I was expecting (muffled mids and too sharp highs) so I would like to determine how biased my ears are and/or confirm if audyssey is making it sound "wrong". In any case I would like to improve the sound and I am thinking by comparing measurements when I am making changes it should be easier. I was advised to move to this thread by kbarnes701.

It's possible and even likely that something was done incorrectly (or if you prefer, could have been done better smile.gif) during the measurement. Muffled mids and too sharp highs in an unusual complaint.

Barnes? Never heard of him. wink.gif

Jeff
post #58195 of 70896
There are a few complaints from owners of TX-NR818 regarding it. In my case, since I don't have a dedicated listening room, I am quite limited in what I can do, but I would still like to try.
post #58196 of 70896
@ strumf666
Did you just plug in the Audyssey mic directly into the LINE IN port of your soundcard and run REW?
post #58197 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by strumf666 View Post

Just a test sweep with TX-NR818 mic. I don't have the mic calibration and no soundcard calibration since I use HDMI. Not sure how much smoothing is usually used so I used the lowest value. When UNMIK-1 arrives I'll do it again of course. I was expecting bigger difference in mids and highs because when listening to music, judging by my ears, audysses muffles mids and raises the highs which doesn't sound as nice as with audyssey bypassed.Comments?

For freq above 300Hz apply 1/3 octave smoothing.
For freq below 300Hz apply 1/12 octave smoothing, set limits to 45-105db.
post #58198 of 70896
Got my 11.1 set-up done and ran xt32 on my Denon 4520CI last night, some results:

Lot's of speakers!
IMG_3603.jpg

Distances are spot on for all of them:
IMG_3604.jpg..IMG_3605.jpg

Question on the levels:
I know they are set to give me reference volume @ 0db master volume, ie peak 105db above 300Hz and 115db below 300Hz.
Since my speakers have different sensitivity, as the volume is lowered the relative spl of each group gets slightly outta balance, correct?
I do run DEQ on, does that correct for different speaker sensitivity beside the added low freq boost?
(I guessed because the 3 chirps are different spl to my ears, so I wondered if audyssey calculates a speaker sensitivity slope for each one)

Note:
My Paradigms are 96db/w sensitivity for the mains, 97db/w sensitivity for the center, surrounds are 90db/w, wide/heights are 90db/w, while my IB sub is lowest at 86db/w, so if you looked at that on a graph would show what I mean.
During the xt32 sub set-up I did dial in the spl of the sub to 75db.
IMG_3606.jpg..IMG_3607.jpg

Crossover settings; original and changed
IMG_3608.jpg .. IMG_3611.jpg

Sub LPF set at 120Hz, I left that as is.
IMG_3612.jpg

Subjectively I am blown away by the xt32 handling of my bass EQ!
Over Christmas break I'll take measurements via REW and share.
post #58199 of 70896
Question regarding Subwoofer calibration and Audyssey XT32 as I just picked up an Integra 80.3. I have 3 subwoofers. 2 of which are DIY, dual opposed boxes that are equidistance from the LP. These are located on the front stage flanking the Salamander 20 triple low boy audio rack with my P'Digm S2's sitting on top of the subs.

The 3rd is located next to the couch where the LP is (i.e., nearfield) and isn't as capable as the ones at the front (it's an SVS SB13), historically I've used the sub in this position to "fill in" any FR holes that remained after running Audyssey MultiEQ XT.

Would it be recommended to:

a) connect the front subs to the same Subwoofer Preout (say Sub1) and the third sub to the second available Preout (Sub2) so that the front subs are EQ'd together (given they are equidistance from the LP) and the rear sub is EQ'd on it's own?

b) connect and calibrate the front two subs independently, then plug the third sub into either subwoofer preout and use the SB13's array of PEQs and adjustments to fill in any remaining FR holes at the LP (understanding that it will impact other positions).

or...

c) something other than the above that preferably doesn't include getting rid of the 3rd sub that I'm partial to?
post #58200 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Got my 11.1 set-up done and ran xt32 on my Denon 4520CI last night, some results:



Question on the levels:
I know they are set to give me reference volume @ 0db master volume, ie peak 105db above 300Hz and 115db below 300Hz.
Since my speakers have different sensitivity, as the volume is lowered the relative spl of each group gets slightly outta balance, correct?
I do run DEQ on, does that correct for different speaker sensitivity beside the added low freq boost?
(I guessed because the 3 chirps are different spl to my ears, so I wondered if audyssey calculates a speaker sensitivity slope for each one)

Note:
My Paradigms are 96db/w sensitivity for the mains, 97db/w sensitivity for the center, surrounds are 90db/w, wide/heights are 90db/w, while my IB sub is lowest at 86db/w, so if you looked at that on a graph would show what I mean.
During the xt32 sub set-up I did dial in the spl of the sub to 75db.


Subjectively I am blown away by the xt32 handling of my bass EQ!
Over Christmas break I'll take measurements via REW and share.

 

The sensitivity of your speakers isn't an issue and the 'relative level of each group' will not get 'out of balance' as you change the volume control.  Audyssey has calibrated each speaker to 75dB, regardless of its sensitivity. That means the least sensitive will need a little more power to hit 75dB and the most sensitive a little less. What is important is that they are all level-matched to 75dB. The difference in trim levels is partly explained by the way the differing sensitivities are handled. 

 

Dynamic EQ boosts the level of the bass and the surround channels as you lower the MV to compensate for the way our hearing 'drops off' as SPL is lowered - the aim is to reproduce the same balance as you would hear at Reference, but at lower volumes. The more you move the MV away from Reference (0dB) the more DEQ compensates. When you get REW out, you can see the effect on the graph as you raise and lower the MV. 

 

There's more info on DEQ here:

 

g)2.   What is Dynamic EQ?

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