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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1952

post #58531 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

Hey guys,

I use REW and honestly, it couldn't be easier or more robust.

The newest version, which is of course also free, now has support for Plug-N-Play USB Mics.

You can get an individually calibrated USB Mic from Cross Spectrum Labs for about $99 shipped and there is no pre-amp, phantom power, etc needed.

So there is only one piece of equipment to buy, the mic, and it's plug-n-play, the software is free, and as mentioned in a post above, you can take one measurement, one time, and then manipulate it any way you want to get any data out of it you want and until you learn (there are several threads that go into detail about how to read and interpret each chart/graph) you can also share the measurement file so more experienced folks can manipulate it and analyze it with standard graph settings that most of us use.

You can literally plug the mic in now, tell REW which USB Mic you're using, and take a measurement in less than 5 minutes for less than $100 with an individually calibrated mic.

IMHO it doesn't get any better than this and it's by far the cheapest and most robust solution. cool.gif

--Jason

 

Thank you for that - you are tempting me to try it if it is as easy as you say. I am happy with my OM but I am seduced by the idea of one measurement and then multiple graphs from it. I'd be more than happy to spring $100 for a mic just to try it out (I can always sell it if I don't get on with REW). Would you please suggest a mic, or mics, that I might want to try, which will work in the way you describe?  Many thanks.

post #58532 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Jason, that's really a great post. $300 for Omnimic is too rich for my blood and I was always put off by the complexity of components needed for REW, but $99 and plug and play may be just the ticket! Do you have a link to the USB mic to which you refer?

 

+1. 

post #58533 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiosq View Post

I'm sure these issues have been addressed in this 2000 page thread, but it's a lot of info to go through to try and find it. I hopefully will use these audiophile adjectives correctly but no promises. Since running audyssey my speakers sound harsher.. I get listening fatigue rather quickly.. maybe I would say the tweeters sound a little too airy? Is there any way to tame that down? Overall things sound better. When I turn audyssey off the sound stage shrinks and things lose their sparkle so I don't want to turn it off altogether. I feel like audyssey jacked a certain band of the audio spectrum a little higher than I personally like. It's a Denon 1713. I can't find anywhere to make minor adjustments.
 

 

This sort of thing has come up from time to time and unfortunately there is no definitive answer.  Please have a look at the FAQ question on this topic and see if it helps or strikes a chord with you - then ask again if it doesn't help. This is one FAQ answer which I feel is very much incomplete, but on the various occasions this has been raised, there has been no concensus reply.

 

One thing we can be sure of is that Audyssey should not make the HF over bright or harsy, and for most of us, it doesn't, so there is something going on. The FAQ answer is here:

 

a)9.   Why are my high frequencies 'bright' or 'harsh' since running Audyssey? 

post #58534 of 70896
I've looked at the FAQ.. I would imagine part of the problem is my room.. concrete floors, no curtains, no rugs. The sub actually sounds to my liking for music in the seated sweet spot so it's not a big issue. I'd like more rumble for movies but that's ok. I know louder doesn't mean better.. I've actually been into audio for a while. The tweeters are fine, they aren't blown. The set up is only 2.1 at the moment. My mains are Amigas, a Paul Carmody design that I built in the garage, I'm a DIY guy what can I say. They are floor standers and set on either side of the TV about 2 feet from the wall. Probably about six feet apart from one another. They don't sound harsh at all when the Audyssey is turned off. The mic is right out of the box the receiver came in, so unless it got damaged before it reached me (possible with lovely UPS) it should be fine.

I've found that I can copy the Audyssey Flat curve into the Manual EQ.. now my question there is if I do that and tweak it to my liking do I lose other Audyssey goodness that I'm not aware of by using the manual EQ? Like the Dynamic EQ (which I'm not even sure what exactly that means.) Does Audyssey do a lot more EQ then what can be done manually?

Thanks fellas.
post #58535 of 70896
I guess I'm confused. The support of a USB mic solves the REW "input" issue but how is the signal generation performed?
post #58536 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I guess I'm confused. The support of a USB mic solves the REW "input" issue but how is the signal generation performed?

You still need a USB sound card connected to a laptop to output the sound (I use a SoundBlaster X-Fi). The sound card is then connected to the AUX IN on the AVR. The device that would be eliminated in my REW setup is the Xenyx mixer which provides phantom power to an EMM-6 mic. So, some reduced complexity, but not completely.
post #58537 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I guess I'm confused. The support of a USB mic solves the REW "input" issue but how is the signal generation performed?

You still need a USB sound card connected to a laptop to output the sound (I use a SoundBlaster X-Fi). The sound card is then connected to the AUX IN on the AVR. The device that would be eliminated in my REW setup is the Xenyx mixer which provides phantom power to an EMM-6 mic. So, some reduced complexity, but not completely.

You do?  Oh. I took it from Jason's post to mean that all you needed was the $100 mic (and the free software of course, and a laptop to run it on, obviously). "So there is only one piece of equipment to buy, the mic, and it's plug-n-play..."  I can't be bothered with anything that has to connect to the AVR just to take measurements - my gear is in a different room.  Oh well.... it was good while it lasted :)

 

EDIT: the signal generation... of course. With OmniMic it's test tones off a CD....

post #58538 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I guess I'm confused. The support of a USB mic solves the REW "input" issue but how is the signal generation performed?
A connection is required from the sound "card's" output and the channel(s) being measured. REW generates the necesary test signals. That is the case regardless of the input method.
post #58539 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

You still need a USB sound card connected to a laptop to output the sound (I use a SoundBlaster X-Fi). The sound card is then connected to the AUX IN on the AVR. The device that would be eliminated in my REW setup is the Xenyx mixer which provides phantom power to an EMM-6 mic. So, some reduced complexity, but not completely.

Some higher end laptops have onboard sound that is DUPLEX and need no other hardware in the case of a USB mic. Laptops lacking duplex operation need an external "card" to achieve duplex operation.
post #58540 of 70896
All of a sudden, not quite so simple. And that is why i continue to use OmniMic. So it is $100 for the mic plus the price of the sound card plus making it work. While may still be cheaper than the $250 I paid for OmniMic, I was never able to get consistent results with REW. And while the ability to use the USB mic should simplify it some, total plug-n-play better fits with my impatient personality.
post #58541 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Some higher end laptops have onboard sound that is DUPLEX and need no other hardware in the case of a USB mic. Laptops lacking duplex operation need an external "card" to achieve duplex operation.

Jeff, the laptop and the AVR still need to be connected. DUPLEX is OK for simultaneous two way communication, but the laptop USB (digital) won't go with AVR Aux. IN, which is analog (RCA), so another "black box" is needed in between. How about some even higher end laptops with HDMI?
post #58542 of 70896
Saw batpig's comment then saw this mic on another thread http://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1 I like my omnimic in any case but one of the things that put me off on mics was the soundcard/amp thing....
post #58543 of 70896
Here's some more info for everyone.

While it is true that REW generates the signal internally, meaning you will have to hook your computer/laptop up to any available stereo input on your AVR, you will not need to use an external CD/DVD Player and CD/(DVD??) like you do with Omnimic/RTZ so that pretty much cancels each other out as far as I'm concerned.

There are no other "black boxes" needed. You will NOT need a full duplex sound card because you aren't using the sound card's mic input and speaker/line output at the same time, as you'll be using the USB Mic. So the built-in sound card that every PC/Laptop has works fine. (Using it this way myself on a cheap laptop)

Yes, the output/jack on the sound card is 1/8" stereo mini and Yes, the input on the AVR is RCA, but that is taken care of by a $3.00 1/8" to RCA Splitter/Y-Adapter that I bet most of you already have.

The Mic is USB and there are a few options, both of which are under $100 shipped and that should be all you need, unless you need to get the $3.00 adapter to go from 1/8" stereo plug to RCA Jack. You can actually get these at Monoprice for $1.00 or so! wink.gif

The first MIC Option, and the one I recommend, is the Dayton UMM-6 USB Mic calibrated individually, by a human being (who has his own very high quality/expensive calibration mic/rig and a lot of experience) at Cross Spectrum Labs.

Here's the link. http://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umm6.html

This Mic is only $90.00 and he charges $9.00 for shipping. He also ships Worldwide.

If you are a member of HTShack, which is where most of the support for REW is and where JohnAV, the writer/owner of REW hangs out, simply put your username in the notes when you order and he'll give you $10.00 off if you order before Jan 1st! After Jan 1st, he will still give you $5.00 off! smile.gif

I've found out a few more things I'd like to share. First, this mic is the same or very similar as what is offered with Omnimic and you can also purchase it directly from PartsExpress.

However, the Mic's that come with your Omnimic and this Dayton UMM-6 Mic, which you can also purchase directly from PartsExpress for about $5.00 less are NOT "truly" individually calibrated by a human, nor do they come with calibration files for 0, 45, and 90 degrees, polar responses, etc, which can come in very handy once you learn more about taking measurements and if you get serious about it and acoustics/improving your room.

The EMM-6 and a few others (old mic that a lot of people use which requires Pre-Amp/Phantom Power) also states it's calibrated and you simply go to the web-site, enter your serial number, then get a cal file however, when CSL compared their truly individually calibrated mics they found up to 5db difference!

So, please understand that the mics you think (because you were told so!) are calibrated really are not and do not match with true individual calibrations. Some are closer than others, but you won't know unless you get them calibrated.

CSL and PartsExpress both purchase these wholesale from Dayton and PE simply charges a few dollars less but doesn't do anything other than sell you the mic as it came from Dayton, however, CSL actually calibrates each mic individually at 0, 45, and 90 degrees, and does this all while charging about the same price!

There is another option, too. Mini-DSP just came out with a USB MIC but you purchase it directly from them. They ship from Hong Kong, but surprisingly, it only takes a few days and everyone over at HTShack has had a good experience so far. So since CSL doesn't get a good break on them wholesale, they don't offer them directly/individually calibrated aren't truly individually calibrated from Mini-DSP, but supposedly are very close. You could always purchase this MIC if it's your preference and send it in to CSL to have them calibrate it of course. I "think" that's around $50-$60 or so??

The latest version of REW, just posted last week, has a drop down menu selection where you can select the Mini-DSP mic (linked to a few posts back) and it's as simple as selecting the mic you're using and running measurements!

GIK Acoustics has a good video tutorial on their web-site on using REW and how to take a measurement to get started and of course there is lots of help on AVS and HTShack.

I helped AustinJerry awhile back in interpreting his results and making some recommendations and would be more than willing to help each and every one of you with anything you need from setting it up, which honestly couldn't be easier, to performing measurements, to helping you understand what they mean and what to do about them.

I love this stuff so much and spend several hours per day 7 days a week between AVS and Gearslutz which is where I have learned so much about acoustics and room treatment.

I have personally been able to get my dedicated theater within +/- 4db with NO Audyssey unsmoothed, and within +/-2 db with 1/3rd smoothing all the way from 20hz-20khz but have realized over the last year or so that frequency response is NOT at all, not even close, to being what is very important.... It's the modal decay times in the low frequencies and the ETC in the upper frequencies.

There's lots to learn, lots to explain, and I'm more than willing to help, but a lot of things simply cannot be done and understood with Omnimic/XTZ and now with Plug-N-Play USB MIC options available for under $100 and at the most another few bucks for an adapter most people already have, there truly isn't any reason I can see to use anything but REW. YMMV of course. wink.gif

--J

PS If anyone wants more specific links to RatShack/Monoprice on exactly which adapter to buy or any other info of any kind, feel free to ask here or PM.
Edited by jevansoh - 12/29/12 at 5:24pm
post #58544 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Some higher end laptops have onboard sound that is DUPLEX and need no other hardware in the case of a USB mic. Laptops lacking duplex operation need an external "card" to achieve duplex operation.

Jeff, the laptop and the AVR still need to be connected. DUPLEX is OK for simultaneous two way communication, but the laptop USB (digital) won't go with AVR Aux. IN, which is analog (RCA), so another "black box" is needed in between. How about some even higher end laptops with HDMI?

Good call, Feri!

HDMI would also work fine. Then you wouldn't need an adapter or have to hook up any analog cables. As long as you have a PC/Laptop w/ HDMI you could use this with no issues.
post #58545 of 70896
So today I decided to get off my duff and finally get REW all set up. I have an analogue Radio Shack meter that I used with the correction file and everything seemed to work ok. Anyways, some of the comments here thought I might have had a dip that Audyssey was trying to boost. Turns out that hypothesis was correct.



I ended up, after trying many different location combinations, colocating my XV15 in the front left corner of my room, which I knew from previous testing to be a pretty solid start. Here's the after with Audyssey applied. It's a lot better than it was and I have a decent place to start with some EQ down the road.

post #58546 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I guess I'm confused. The support of a USB mic solves the REW "input" issue but how is the signal generation performed?

You still need a USB sound card connected to a laptop to output the sound (I use a SoundBlaster X-Fi). The sound card is then connected to the AUX IN on the AVR. The device that would be eliminated in my REW setup is the Xenyx mixer which provides phantom power to an EMM-6 mic. So, some reduced complexity, but not completely.

I don't understand, all laptops have at minimum a mini jack stereo audio output, which you could hook up to any RCA input on your receiver. Why do you need some fancy extra soundcard just to output audio from the laptop to the receiver?
post #58547 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

HDMI would also work fine. Then you wouldn't need an adapter or have to hook up any analog cables. As long as you have a PC/Laptop w/ HDMI you could use this with no issues.
When JohnM recently posted the latest beta of Room EQ Wizard at HTS, I noticed that a couple of the people posting feedback had simplified their measurement rig: USB mic into their laptop, HDMI out to their receiver. REW automatically recognized the miniDSP mic and asked if they wanted to import the correction file. What makes things even more convenient is that a few pre-pros and many receivers have an HDMI jack on the front panel, so you don't have to do a reacharound to connect the laptop.
post #58548 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Jeff, the laptop and the AVR still need to be connected. DUPLEX is OK for simultaneous two way communication, but the laptop USB (digital) won't go with AVR Aux. IN, which is analog (RCA), so another "black box" is needed in between. How about some even higher end laptops with HDMI?

Hi Feri,

Perhaps a mic jacked into a USB port negates the need for simultaneous "sound" input/output? If so, then perhaps standard laptop audio will do. Mic to USB and cable from audio output to receiver/processor audio input.

Jeff
post #58549 of 70896
FYI....

umm-6 daytons are on b/o from cross spectrums
post #58550 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

Good call, Feri!
HDMI would also work fine. Then you wouldn't need an adapter or have to hook up any analog cables. As long as you have a PC/Laptop w/ HDMI you could use this with no issues.

If you want to measure L&R channels then an HDMI connection between laptop and avr would work. If you want to measure individual channels then not.
post #58551 of 70896
I've got the Denon 4311 with 32XT. Is there a way to see post calibration adjustments made by audyssey? Not just speaker levels but adjustments to the curve? When I look at parameter check I think I am looking at "before" but I can't see "after".
post #58552 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

If you want to measure L&R channels then an HDMI connection between laptop and avr would work. If you want to measure individual channels then not.

With REW(beta) and ASIO support you can direct a laptop HDMI output to drive any of the eight available PCM channels individually, or two at a time using the timing reference output channel option.
Regards, Mike.
post #58553 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post

With REW(beta) and ASIO support you can direct a laptop HDMI output to drive any of the eight available PCM channels individually, or two at a time using the timing reference output channel option.
Regards, Mike.

Wow, that's great! Does using HDMI output complicate creating a correction file for the "sound card"?
post #58554 of 70896
After running Audyssey, it shows my Bose 161 surrounds at 120HZ for crossover. I am not able to find a number on the speakers. Seems high to me (thought 80 was a standard starting point)
Should I change this value or leave as is?
post #58555 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodean View Post

After running Audyssey, it shows my Bose 161 surrounds at 120HZ for crossover. I am not able to find a number on the speakers. Seems high to me (thought 80 was a standard starting point)
Should I change this value or leave as is?

Audyssey selected that point because the bass response of your surrounds drops off at 120 Hz. Audyssey recommends a crossover point at the -3 dB point of the frequency response for your surround speakers. Don't lower that crossover point, because Audyssey doesn't do any room correction for your surrounds below 120 Hz. See the following section in the FAQ for this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750_50#user_c4
post #58556 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodean View Post

After running Audyssey, it shows my Bose 161 surrounds at 120HZ for crossover. I am not able to find a number on the speakers. Seems high to me (thought 80 was a standard starting point)
Should I change this value or leave as is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

Audyssey selected that point because the bass response of your surrounds drops off at 120 Hz. Audyssey recommends a crossover point at the -3 dB point of the frequency response for your surround speakers. Don't lower that crossover point, because Audyssey doesn't do any room correction for your surrounds below 120 Hz. See the following section in the FAQ for this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750_50#user_c4

bodean, I will expand (expound? wink.gif) on that a bit more: Audyssey selected that point because the bass response of your surrounds drops off at 120 Hz where they are located in your room in relation to the room walls and other aspects of the room.

Even if the manufacturer says something lower, you should not lower them.

Jeff
post #58557 of 70896
^^
Pepar is right, as usual--thanks for expanding on my post.
post #58558 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Wow, that's great! Does using HDMI output complicate creating a correction file for the "sound card"?

I created a correction using a Pre-Out connection on the AVR - with all processing disabled. So in theory the graphs should show the combined effects of processing(once re-enabled), power-amps, speakers, room, microphone(accounted for with mic cal file).
Regards, Mike.
post #58559 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post

I created a correction using a Pre-Out connection on the AVR - with all processing disabled. So in theory the graphs should show the combined effects of processing(once re-enabled), power-amps, speakers, room, microphone(accounted for with mic cal file).
Regards, Mike.

Mike, how did you loop-back the pre-out connection on the AVR to the laptop? Pre-out is analog RCA. For a 5.1 system that means 6 analog RCA connectors. Or am I lost here? Care to expand? Thx.

One more Q. Can the loop-back be done with a single HDMI connection between laptop and AVR?
post #58560 of 70896
^^^

yes, this is intriguing, especially for those who had been on the fence because of the relatively (to an OM) complex hardware requirements. As I already have a preamp/phantom PS and a calibrated mic, I won't be switching that part of my configuration. But it would be good to know as much as possible to assist others. If I could see how HDMI connection from laptop to pre/pro would be better, I'd consider moving to that.
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