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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1971

post #59101 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi djoberg,

The proper range is not +/- 3.5 dB, but +/- 12 dB for the satellites and -15/ +12 dB for the subwoofer on your Onkyo 717. That's a whole lotta difference. smile.gif
Umm, ...actually the Onkyo 717 is another entry level receiver as regards the 2EQ version of Audyssey which does not EQ the frequency response of the subwoofer channel, only sets distances and speaker levels. In case your Onkyo turns out to be defective why not upgrade to a model that has at least MultEQ on board (with sub channel EQ'ing), as far as funds allow you this upgrade?
Not batpig, but it surely is the cable from AVR to Subwoofer. smile.gif

Finally, as a last resort, did you try a microprocessor reset?

When I mentioned the "proper range," I should have said "ideal range" instead. I based that on the following:

"It is important that no trim level is 'hitting the stops' or maxed out. The reason for this is that if you do hit the stops, you have no way of knowing if Audyssey would have gone even further if it had been able to. So if, for example, your sub is set to -15dB, then there is the possibility that it could have been set to -17dB if Audyssey had allowed it. Ideally, your sub should be in the trim range of approximately -3.5dB to +3.5dB. If your sub is not in this range then you can adjust it by using the sub volume control knob and running Audyssey again until you get the trim where you want it."

I had read the highlighted words before I did the Audyssey calibration so I knew I should be shooting for that range. I tried, initially, with my sub gain set at 12 o'clock (which is the gain setting I used when I calibrated my Pioneer receiver using MCACC) and the result was a level of +12dB. I realized I was "hitting the stops" so I ran Audyssey again at about 3/4 gain and that too yielded a +12dB level. So, I went for broke and dialed the gain to max and finally the level was down to +3dB. That level would be fine if my gain was at 12 o'clock or less, but obviously something is wrong to have to turn the gain to max.

I wish I could upgrade to the 818, which has the famed MultiEQ XT32 Audyssey, but it's over $500 more (too much money for me at this time) and the height is almost an inch higher than the 717 and I don't have any "breathing room" on my glass stand (a stand that I absolutely love because it matches perfectly my Pioneer PRO-151 Kuro Elite).

What is a "microprocessor reset" and how do I do it?
post #59102 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

When I mentioned the "proper range," I should have said "ideal range" instead.

Nope, there is no sucha thing in Audyssey Land as "ideal range" within the "proper range". Within the max allowance any dB value is ideal. Think of it this way, please: in a small room with high efficiency speakers the trims will be at the far negative side, while in a big room with low efficiency speakers the trims will be set to the higher end in order to achive the same goal, i.e. to set the SPL at the MLP to 75 dB.
Quote:
I wish I could upgrade to the 818, which has the famed MultiEQ XT32 Audyssey, but it's over $500 more (too much money for me at this time) and the height is almost an inch higher than the 717 and I don't have any "breathing room" on my glass stand (a stand that I absolutely love because it matches perfectly my Pioneer PRO-151 Kuro Elite).

Actually the difference in sound quality of bass between 2EQ and MultEQ is much bigger than the difference between MultEQ and XT 32. There is also MultEQ XT in between, but the resolution of filters in the subwoofer channel are the same for MultEQ and MultEQ XT.


Quote:
What is a "microprocessor reset" and how do I do it?

A microprocessor reset will reset your AVR to factory settings, thus allowing you to start everything all over again!

Here's a screenshot for you from the Onkyo 717 Manual on the process:

post #59103 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

oh yes, its 75db not -75. i have SPL from my android app, after running my aud. i check it using my SPL app and it says 73db for all the speakers, it is possible if i tweak all of the speakers using my SPL app to get 75db or should i leave it what the aud result is?

You should leave it 'as is' after Audyssey. Tolerances of two test mics in the same system may add up on the odd side, so general consensus on this thread is not to override the Audyssey settings by the use of mics having unknown accuracy.


Yeah, the chance of the SPL app on your android phone being more accurate than the Auyssey microphone is.... um.... slim...

Just be happy that all of your speakers measure the same and enjoy your system wink.gif
post #59104 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

 
Nope, there is no sucha thing in Audyssey Land as "ideal range" within the "proper range". Within the max allowance any dB value is ideal. 

I don't think that is quite right, Feri. For example. a sub trim set at -14dB is within range, but it is far from ideal. A trim of -14dB will mean that the sub gain is set very high - possibly even into or approaching clipping the sub's amp. As there is no value in having the sub gain set so high, it makes far more sense to reduce it and to allow the AVR trim to rise a little, towards the 'neutral' setting of 0dB. Similarly a sub trim set at +11 means the sub gain is set very low, again for no particularly valuable reason. 

 

It says this in the FAQ:

 

"You may want to consider this comment from Ed Mullen, Director of Technology at renowned subwoofer manufacturer SVS:

 

"A general rule when level matching the subs and the speaker channels is to run the gain hotter at the subs and the AVR sub trim level cooler. That keeps the AVR sub signal clean and allows upward adjustability to run the sub hotter if needed."

 

In other words, it may be better to turn UP the volume control on the sub so that the AVR sets your trim lower (i.e. to a bigger minus figure)."

 

I think that is good advice. Keeping within the +/- 3.5dB range allows more flexibility to change the trim levels for whatever reason and also ensures that neither the AVR nor the sub itself are approaching their limits.

 

So while you are technically correct in what you say, I think there are good reasons to avoid extremes in the trim settings and so does Chris K as it happens: "If MultEQ reports high negative trims (e.g., –12 dB) for the subwoofer, then you should turn the level control further down and run MultEQ again." ;)

post #59105 of 70896
I remember someone in this thread measuring their SW pre-out and noting that, with extreme *positive* sub trim settings, that the sub channel output from the receiver was actually experiencing some digital clipping. Although the vast majority of reports are of extreme *negative* trims, this is one reason to strive to avoid extreme positive trims.
post #59106 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Nope, there is no sucha thing in Audyssey Land as "ideal range" within the "proper range". Within the max allowance any dB value is ideal. Think of it this way, please: in a small room with high efficiency speakers the trims will be at the far negative side, while in a big room with low efficiency speakers the trims will be set to the higher end in order to achive the same goal, i.e. to set the SPL at the MLP to 75 dB.
Actually the difference in sound quality of bass between 2EQ and MultEQ is much bigger than the difference between MultEQ and XT 32. There is also MultEQ XT in between, but the resolution of filters in the subwoofer channel are the same for MultEQ and MultEQ XT.


A microprocessor reset will reset your AVR to factory settings, thus allowing you to start everything all over again!

Here's a screenshot for you from the Onkyo 717 Manual on the process:


Your comments in your first paragraph are interesting, for I have a mid-sized room (2800 cu. ft.) with low efficiency speakers (at least I *think* they are) and yet Audyssey set all channels within 1dB of each other (at -1db, .5dB or 0dB).

Regarding the differences in Audyssey, I used to own the Onkyo 705 which had MultEQ XT and now here I am with basically the same "7" series and Onkyo has reduced it down to 2EQ. Go figure!! I may end up replacing my 717 with the 818 for XT32 alone, though it would cost me dearly ($500 plus a new stand).

I may end up trying the reset. Interestingly enough, I just tried yet another calibration and this time around I set the sub's gain to about 2/3 and the result was, surprisingly, a level of +7.5dB. I was taken aback by this for earlier I dialed the gain in at near 3/4 and the level turned out to be +12 dB (again). In the "calibration menu" I ended up turning the setting of +7.5dB for the sub down to 0dB and all the material I've listened to sounds quite good. So, I'm somewhat confused as to what to do...do I go though the hassle of returning the Onkyo (that I spent several hours setting up....tinkering with the endless settings in the "advanced options"), or do I live with what I have? Again, it sounds quite good now, definitely better than what I had with my Pioneer receiver. The real question may be, "Is the real problem behind the possible weak signal from the AVR's sub out going to cause something even worse to occur?"
Edited by djoberg - 1/17/13 at 7:34pm
post #59107 of 70896
Tuned my 2 subwoofers individually to achieve 75db each yesterday. Re-ran Audyssey calibration. The 2 subwoofers' combined level is 80db. The Audyssey calibrated results are shown in the following pics.

Watched Dark Knight Returns again & the sound is awesome. :-)



post #59108 of 70896
can someone explain in a literal sense what audyssey does in the bass equalization calibration?
post #59109 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I remember someone in this thread measuring their SW pre-out and noting that, with extreme *positive* sub trim settings, that the sub channel output from the receiver was actually experiencing some digital clipping. Although the vast majority of reports are of extreme *negative* trims, this is one reason to strive to avoid extreme positive trims.

I have direct experience of that. In my formative months in this hobby I ran Audyssey (MultEQ at that time) and for whatever reason I had set the sub gain to the level recommended by the sub manufacturer - the sub was nothing special -  a 10 inch 300 watt affair - for initial listening. My Audyssey trims came in at +10, so in my innocence I assumed, as this was below the maximum setting, I was good to go. I ran the system like this for one day. And then I noticed, on certain passages with loud bass, terrible distortion emanating from my sub. I had been clipping it for hours without realising it and I had destroyed it. Lesson thoroughly learned. This is why I disagree with Feri's view that so long as the trim is set anywhere in the range, it is good to go. My own experience shows it isn't. Incidentally, my retailer exchanged the sub under warranty for me, which I thought was 'above and beyond' being as I had destroyed it through abuse. After replacing the sub, I raised its gain by a large amount and ran Audyssey again - this put me in firm negative trim territory and I ran that sub like that for well over a year. And then I discovered this thread :)  All anecdotal I know but it ties in with what you say above.

post #59110 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

can someone explain in a literal sense what audyssey does in the bass equalization calibration?

The short answer is, it's proprietary closely-guarded information so nobody knows. But we can do better than that - have a read of this FAQ section and see if it answers your question:

 

H. MultEQ: What Is It, How Does It Work?

 

The basic answer is that Audyssey sets the levels and distances (delays) of each speaker and then uses a mic to 'listen' to the room and then creates a set of inverse filters to counteract room-induced problems - eg peaks at certain frequencies. Some people believe it also has a beneficial effect on reflected sound issues too, but that is deep in the 'secret sauce' and subject to discussion ;)

post #59111 of 70896
A quibble about part of the subwoofer trim level discussion: if the voltage output of the receiver's subwoofer channel is too low, it might not trigger the sub's Auto-on function when the low frequencies in the sound track have a rather low volume. The higher voltage output by the receiver when the subwoofer channel's trim level is in the +/- 3dB range helps to avoid this problem.
post #59112 of 70896
Okay, I just got off the phone after speaking to a CS rep in technical support at Onkyo for approximately 20 minutes. The guy *seemed* to be a genuine techie and know his stuff (at times, that is) and his final advice to me was to turn the calibration level down on the sub (in the AVR) AND turn my gain down on my SVS sub. I told him the AVR level was at +11.5dB and the sub gain was at 2/3 and he recommended setting the AVR sub level to as low as I wanted to be based on what I was hearing and to turn the sub gain down to 12 o'clock. I told him that was just "treating the symptoms and not the cause of the problem" and he agreed, but he said, quite dogmatically, "Audyssey is not by any means a perfect calibration system. You can calibrate your speakers with the same set up (i.e. same speakers, same room, same placement of furniture, etc.) 6 times and come up with 6 different outcomes." I told him I had, in measure, experienced that in the 7 or 8 calibrations I did yesterday, but that there still had to something wrong with either my sub or the AVR's sub out if one has to set the gain so high to achieve a satisfactory sub level. He then said, "Audyssey's mic may be having a hard time with your sub for whatever reason," and then he told me that he didn't believe anything was wrong with the Onkyo (or my sub) and not to worry about it. He even went on to say that there are a lot of people that call in and complain about Audyssey and that they're not satisifed with what they're hearing, and they end up doing what he's telling me to do...set my trim levels and sub gain to my liking. He did agree that the sub gain should NOT be set past the 12 o'clock setting but as long as I was able to get the trim levels to below +12dB in some of my calibrations I should be alright. He ended our conversation by trying to assure me that he didn't believe any damage could be done to either my sub or the AVR in light of what I've experienced.We'll see about that (or maybe not...maybe I'll just return the unit).

I am going to *try* what he said and believe my ears. My goal is to have a seamless blend between my sub and other channels (like I did with my Pioneer) without compromising the performance of my PC12-NSD, so we'll see what happens.
Edited by djoberg - 1/18/13 at 9:23am
post #59113 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

A quibble about part of the subwoofer trim level discussion: if the voltage output of the receiver's subwoofer channel is too low, it might not trigger the sub's Auto-on function when the low frequencies in the sound track have a rather low volume. The higher voltage output by the receiver when the subwoofer channel's trim level is in the +/- 3dB range helps to avoid this problem.

 

Another good reason to stay 'in the zone', Selden...

post #59114 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

Okay, I just got off the phone after speaking to a CS rep in technical support at Onkyo for approximately 20 minutes. The guy *seemed* to be a genuine techie and know his stuff (at times, that is) and his final advice to me was to turn the calibration level down on the sub (in the AVR) AND turn my gain down on my SVS sub. I told him the AVR level was at +11.5dB and the sub gain was at 2/3 and he recommended setting the AVR sub level to as low as I wanted to be based on what I was hearing and to turn the sub gain down to 12 o'clock. I told him that was just "treating the symptoms and not the cause of the problem" and he agreed, but he said, quite dogmatically, "Audyssey is not by any means a perfect calibration system. You can calibrate your speakers with the same set up (i.e. same speakers, same room, same placement of furniture, etc.) 6 times and come up with 6 different outcomes." I told him I had, in measure, experienced that in the 7 or 8 calibrations I did yesterday, but that there still had to something wrong with either my sub or the AVR's sub out if one has to set the gain so high to achieve a satisfactory sub level. He then said, "Audyssey's mic may be having a hard time with your sub for whatever reason," and then he told me that he didn't believe anything was wrong with the Onkyo (or my sub) and not to worry about it. He even went on to say that there are a lot of people that call in and complain about Audyssey and that they're not satisifed with what they're hearing, and they end up doing what he's telling me to do...set my trim levels and sub gain to my liking. He did agree that the sub gain should NOT be set past the 12 o'clock setting but as long as I was able to get the trim levels to below +12dB in some of my calibrations I should be alright. He ended our conversation by trying to assure me that he didn't believe any damage could be done to either my sub or the AVR in light of what I've experienced.We'll see about that (or maybe not...maybe I'll just return the unit).

I am going to *try* what he said and believe my ears. My goal is to have a seamless blend between my sub and other channels (like I did with my Pioneer) without compromising the performance of my PC12-NSD, so we'll see what happens.

 

Typical useless manufacturer support person. All that 'advice' is BS. 

 

 

 

Quote:
 "Audyssey is not by any means a perfect calibration system. You can calibrate your speakers with the same set up (i.e. same speakers, same room, same placement of furniture, etc.) 6 times and come up with 6 different outcomes."

 

More BS. You can indeed get slightly different results from each calibration, usually because the mic is not in the same locations each time. But this will not apply to distance and levels. If you make 1000 measurement runs, and don't move the mic at all, you will get exactly the same level and distance settings every time. The experience you are having is not an Audyssey problem (unless your mic is damaged but it is hard to see how it sets the other speakers correctly if that is so) - it is a sub or an AVR problem. If you look back through the 60,000 posts in this thread, you will not find one single instance of Audyssey setting a sub at +12dB when the sub gain is set correctly. (I have actually read all 60,000 posts believe it or not, as have several other 'regulars' here). So the question is, is it the sub or the AVR?  Given that you never had these problems with your old Pioneer, my money is on the AVR and I personally would return it while you can. It may be a blessing in disguise - you may decide to hang fire on replacing that Pioneer until you can get an 818 with MultEQ XT32....

post #59115 of 70896
Ok sorry to get off topic but I posted a question over on the Hsu sub thread and got no replies and since this thread is active and we are writting about calibrations, subs etc I want to ask this question.

I have the vft3 mk4 sub and when watching a movie what setting gives the mid bass in your chest bass? Currently I have 2 ports open EQ 2, Q3 but being hybrid sub I'm not sure which setting is just right for that.
post #59116 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't think that is quite right, Feri. For example. a sub trim set at -14dB is within range, but it is far from ideal. A trim of -14dB will mean that the sub gain is set very high - possibly even into or approaching clipping the sub's amp. As there is no value in having the sub gain set so high, it makes far more sense to reduce it and to allow the AVR trim to rise a little, towards the 'neutral' setting of 0dB. Similarly a sub trim set at +11 means the sub gain is set very low, again for no particularly valuable reason.

Keith et all,

Let's dig a bit deepeer into this sub trim phenomenon. Firstly, let's just look at the sub level adjustment schemes of Audyssey because that may be a bit different than the setting of the satellites that do not have a gain control knob.

Ok, so, what is the ultimate goal of Audyssey's sub level setting? To achive 85 dB SPL in the LFE channel at the tip of the Audyssey mic sitting at the MLP at seated ear heigth with a -30 dBfs test signal sent out through the subwoofer. Right?

Then, what is a gain knob on the back side of the sub? A gain knob on the plate amplifier is basically just a small potentiometer (variable resistor) that allows adjusting the incoming signal to the amplifier so that the amplifier will work well with the subwoofer driver.

Now let's go back to Audyssey trims. If the gain knob on the sub is turned down Audyssey has to increase the trim and if the gain knob is turned up Audyssey will have to decrease the trim. Why? Because in both cases the goal is to reach 85 dB SPL at the MLP. Typically Audyssey has a window of 24 dBs (Denons) to fit into this range. Where the trim will stop witin this range is not important, the only thing important is that SPL should be 85 dB at the MLP. On a second note, as you can see, this range does not have a center (or neutral value, as you say) or in other words a center value is not defined here, only the start (-12 dB) and the stop (+12 dB) levels are set up. This is why I said there is no ideal range within the full range, coz based on the above any trim value within the range of +/- 12 dB that is necessary to produce the reference level of 85 dB is OK. And there will only be one such level provided the gain knob is not touched.
Finally, in case the subwoofer is clipping it can never be attributed to the trim level setting of Audyssey, since Audyssey has done nothing else than setting up the subwoofer level to reference.

@Selden:

My sub also has that funny feature called auto-sleep, but I wan't my sub to be awake while I'm also awake, therefore I just simply turn that switch to OFF. wink.gif
Edited by mogorf - 1/18/13 at 11:25am
post #59117 of 70896
Unfortunately, some subwoofers don't provide the option of disabling the auto-on feature frown.gif
post #59118 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Unfortunately, some subwoofers don't provide the option of disabling the auto-on feature frown.gif

Sorry to hear that Selden, BTW which sub is that?
post #59119 of 70896
So, in light of Keith and Feri's last posts, I'm going to give my last calibration with results and what I've done since talking to the CS rep at Onkyo. In the last calibration I set the gain to about 2 o'clock, ran the full 2EQ calibration and the sub's level came in at +11.5dB. It obviously sounded imbalanced with too much bass. I then turned the trim level down to about +7.5dB and it sounded better, but it still had too much bass. This morning I called Onkyo and right after making my post on here I turned the trim level down to +3.5dB and the sub's gain down to 12 o'clock. I've only listened to some music (CDs), but it sounds EXCELLENT! There is a seamless blending of the sub and the mains ,center, & surrounds, with just the right amount of bass. Granted, I'm going by my ears in forming this conclusion.

Did my turning down the trim level and sub gain negate my last calibration (in other words, did my actions negate the goal of Audyssey, which is to "achieve 85dB SPL in the LFE channel)? And just as important, am I in danger of experiencing the same thing that Keith did (see post above) when he had distortion during loud bass scenes, which turned out to be clipping that eventually ruined his sub? Of course, in asking this last question it seems that Keith did not adjust his trim levels (he left them on +10dB), so *maybe* if he had lowered them the clipping, distortion and ruining of his sub wouldn't have taken place.

I'm betraying my ignorance in asking these questions (I've been told countless times that "ignorance is not stupidity, so feel free to ask questions to your heart's content"), but I really want to know the truth so I can act on it. Keith and Feri seem to in disagreement on some issues and I want to be able to digest what they're both saying and try to arrive at the truth...and then apply it.
post #59120 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

So, in light of Keith and Feri's last posts, I'm going to give my last calibration with results and what I've done since talking to the CS rep at Onkyo. In the last calibration I set the gain to about 2 o'clock, ran the full 2EQ calibration and the sub's level came in at +11.5dB. It obviously sounded imbalanced with too much bass. I then turned the trim level down to about +7.5dB and it sounded better, but it still had too much bass. This morning I called Onkyo and right after making my post on here I turned the trim level down to +3.5dB and the sub's gain down to 12 o'clock. I've only listened to some music (CDs), but it sounds EXCELLENT! There is a seamless blending of the sub and the mains ,center, & surrounds, with just the right amount of bass. Granted, I'm going by my ears in forming this conclusion.

Did my turning down the trim level and sub gain negate my last calibration (in other words, did my actions negate the goal of Audyssey, which is to "achieve 85dB SPL in the LFE channel)? And just as important, am I in danger of experiencing the same thing that Keith did (see post above) when he had distortion during loud bass scenes, which turned out to be clipping that eventually ruined his sub? Of course, in asking this last question it seems that Keith did not adjust his trim levels (he left them on +10dB), so *maybe* if he had lowered them the clipping, distortion and ruining of his sub wouldn't have taken place.

I'm betraying my ignorance in asking these questions (I've been told countless times that "ignorance is not stupidity, so feel free to ask questions to your heart's content"), but I really want to know the truth so I can act on it. Keith and Feri seem to in disagreement on some issues and I want to be able to digest what they're both saying and try to arrive at the truth...and then apply it.

djoberg,

One more thing here. I don't know what sub you have, but it could be that the gain control potentiometer is a so-called logarithmic type. in Layman's it means you start to rate it from left to right, ...in the beginning nothing happens, and nothing, nothing, still nothing, then you are almost at 3 o'clock and it suddenly starts to kick in. In this case you may have to take a couple of more Audyssey setups with slight movements of the gain control knob till you get a valid trim setup. What model is your sub?
post #59121 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Unfortunately, some subwoofers don't provide the option of disabling the auto-on feature frown.gif

Sorry to hear that Selden, BTW which sub is that?

It's an early Energy 12" subwoofer. Sorry, I don't recall the exact model number (It's at home and I'm not). It sounds fine, though; Audyssey had no problems calibrating it.
post #59122 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

djoberg,

One more thing here. I don't know what sub you have, but it could be that the gain control potentiometer is a so-called logarithmic type. in Layman's it means you start to rate it from left to right, ...in the beginning nothing happens, and nothing, nothing, still nothing, then you are almost at 3 o'clock and it suddenly starts to kick in. In this case you may have to take a couple of more Audyssey setups with slight movements of the gain control knob till you get a valid trim setup. What model is your sub?

Yes good to know what sub you have because the sub might be too small for the room and that could be why your trim is off?
post #59123 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

djoberg,

One more thing here. I don't know what sub you have, but it could be that the gain control potentiometer is a so-called logarithmic type. in Layman's it means you start to rate it from left to right, ...in the beginning nothing happens, and nothing, nothing, still nothing, then you are almost at 3 o'clock and it suddenly starts to kick in. In this case you may have to take a couple of more Audyssey setups with slight movements of the gain control knob till you get a valid trim setup. What model is your sub?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post



Yes good to know what sub you have because the sub might be too small for the room and that could be why your trim is off?

I have the SVS PC12-NSD, a very capable sub (I've been told) for mid-sized rooms (my room is 13.5' x 27' x 8'....2800 cu. ft.).

Just to reiterate, I did my first calibration two days ago with the gain set at 12 o'clock and the result was a trim level of +12dB (in other words, the "max," which means Audyssey possibly could have kept going with the trim for all I know). I then dialed the gain to 3/4 and the trim level still registered +12dB. Then I took the gain all the way to max and lo and behold the trim level dropped to +3dB. Since then I've been in touch with you guys, Jack at SVS, and the CS rep at Onkyo and I've done several more calibrations. Interestingly, I did one quick calibration once at 3/4 gain and the trim level was +7.5dB. My last calibration, as mentioned above, was done with the gain at 1/3 (2 o'clock) and the trim level was +11.5dB. So, as you can see, they have been inconsistent, even when I had the gain set at the same place (the first time with the gain at 3/4 it resulted in a level of +12dB; the second time a level of +7.5dB). But I was somewhat encouraged that I was at least able to reach trim levels under +12dB, even though it meant setting the gain further than one should have to.

So, your thoughts?
post #59124 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post


I have the SVS PC12-NSD, a very capable sub (I've been told) for mid-sized rooms (my room is 13.5' x 27' x 8'....2800 cu. ft.).

Just to reiterate, I did my first calibration two days ago with the gain set at 12 o'clock and the result was a trim level of +12dB (in other words, the "max," which means Audyssey possibly could have kept going with the trim for all I know). I then dialed the gain to 3/4 and the trim level still registered +12dB. Then I took the gain all the way to max and lo and behold the trim level dropped to +3dB. Since then I've been in touch with you guys, Jack at SVS, and the CS rep at Onkyo and I've done several more calibrations. Interestingly, I did one quick calibration once at 3/4 gain and the trim level was +7.5dB. My last calibration, as mentioned above, was done with the gain at 1/3 (2 o'clock) and the trim level was +11.5dB. So, as you can see, they have been inconsistent, even when I had the gain set at the same place (the first time with the gain at 3/4 it resulted in a level of +12dB; the second time a level of +7.5dB). But I was somewhat encouraged that I was at least able to reach trim levels under +12dB, even though it meant setting the gain further than one should have to.

So, your thoughts?

Try 8 and 9 o'clock
post #59125 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Try 8 and 9 o'clock

I'm quite sure, if 12 o'clock resulted in a trim level of +12dB, that those two settings would produce the same result. I've been told by most everyone that one needs to go higher on the gain to bring trim levels down.
post #59126 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

I'm quite sure, if 12 o'clock resulted in a trim level of +12dB, that those two settings would produce the same result. I've been told by most everyone that one needs to go higher on the gain to bring trim levels down.

True I see your point. Does your sub have a defeat switch? I f it does set it to OUT when calibration and if not set the crossover knob on the sub to max.
post #59127 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

I'm quite sure, if 12 o'clock resulted in a trim level of +12dB, that those two settings would produce the same result. I've been told by most everyone that one needs to go higher on the gain to bring trim levels down.

I looked into the Manual of your SVS sub and found that it has some digital implementations on-board:

STA-400D Connectivity and Panel Operation
The STA-400D Sledge™ amplifier in this SVS subwoofer has simple and straightforward connectivity and
control options that make integrating the subwoofer into the
listening environment an easy task. Even though the STA-400D
uses what appears to be analog controls, all functions are
actually implemented digitally in the amplifier.
This allows
a more linear and accurate implementation of controls which
again, facilitates setup and repeatability of configuration.

As usually, digital systems sometimes need to be "reset". Although I find no reset button here, you may try to turn off and unplug the sub for a few minutes and turn it on again. May sound esotheric, but anyway...smile.gif Won't hurt, eh!? smile.gif

BTW, have you reset the Onkyo, yet?
post #59128 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't think that is quite right, Feri. For example. a sub trim set at -14dB is within range, but it is far from ideal. A trim of -14dB will mean that the sub gain is set very high - possibly even into or approaching clipping the sub's amp. As there is no value in having the sub gain set so high, it makes far more sense to reduce it and to allow the AVR trim to rise a little, towards the 'neutral' setting of 0dB. Similarly a sub trim set at +11 means the sub gain is set very low, again for no particularly valuable reason.

Keith et all,

Let's dig a bit deepeer into this sub trim phenomenon. Firstly, let's just look at the sub level adjustment schemes of Audyssey because that may be a bit different than the setting of the satellites that do not have a gain control knob.

Ok, so, what is the ultimate goal of Audyssey's sub level setting? To achive 85 dB SPL in the LFE channel at the tip of the Audyssey mic sitting at the MLP at seated ear heigth with a -30 dBfs test signal sent out through the subwoofer. Right?

Then, what is a gain knob on the back side of the sub? A gain knob on the plate amplifier is basically just a small potentiometer (variable resistor) that allows adjusting the incoming signal to the amplifier so that the amplifier will work well with the subwoofer driver.

Now let's go back to Audyssey trims. If the gain knob on the sub is turned down Audyssey has to increase the trim and if the gain knob is turned up Audyssey will have to decrease the trim. Why? Because in both cases the goal is to reach 85 dB SPL at the MLP. Typically Audyssey has a window of 24 dBs (Denons) to fit into this range. Where the trim will stop witin this range is not important, the only thing important is that SPL should be 85 dB at the MLP. On a second note, as you can see, this range does not have a center (or neutral value, as you say) or in other words a center value is not defined here, only the start (-12 dB) and the stop (+12 dB) levels are set up. This is why I said there is no ideal range within the full range, coz based on the above any trim value within the range of +/- 12 dB that is necessary to produce the reference level of 85 dB is OK. And there will only be one such level provided the gain knob is not touched.
Finally, in case the subwoofer is clipping it can never be attributed to the trim level setting of Audyssey, since Audyssey has done nothing else than setting up the subwoofer level to reference.

@Selden:

My sub also has that funny feature called auto-sleep, but I wan't my sub to be awake while I'm also awake, therefore I just simply turn that switch to OFF. wink.gif

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, Feri. I think the case for staying within the +/-3.5dB range (approximately) is overwhelming, for the reasons I gave (and which Selden added to).

post #59129 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

So, in light of Keith and Feri's last posts, I'm going to give my last calibration with results and what I've done since talking to the CS rep at Onkyo. In the last calibration I set the gain to about 2 o'clock, ran the full 2EQ calibration and the sub's level came in at +11.5dB. It obviously sounded imbalanced with too much bass. I then turned the trim level down to about +7.5dB and it sounded better, but it still had too much bass. This morning I called Onkyo and right after making my post on here I turned the trim level down to +3.5dB and the sub's gain down to 12 o'clock. I've only listened to some music (CDs), but it sounds EXCELLENT! There is a seamless blending of the sub and the mains ,center, & surrounds, with just the right amount of bass. Granted, I'm going by my ears in forming this conclusion.

Did my turning down the trim level and sub gain negate my last calibration (in other words, did my actions negate the goal of Audyssey, which is to "achieve 85dB SPL in the LFE channel)? And just as important, am I in danger of experiencing the same thing that Keith did (see post above) when he had distortion during loud bass scenes, which turned out to be clipping that eventually ruined his sub? Of course, in asking this last question it seems that Keith did not adjust his trim levels (he left them on +10dB), so *maybe* if he had lowered them the clipping, distortion and ruining of his sub wouldn't have taken place.

I'm betraying my ignorance in asking these questions (I've been told countless times that "ignorance is not stupidity, so feel free to ask questions to your heart's content"), but I really want to know the truth so I can act on it. Keith and Feri seem to in disagreement on some issues and I want to be able to digest what they're both saying and try to arrive at the truth...and then apply it.

 

Yes, Feri and I disagree on this. But I am the one who ran his AVR at +10dB and destroyed a sub because of it. Following Feri's line of thinking +10dB ought to be fine, but I know from experience it isn't. I can only tell you what I believe to be true - the sub trim should ideally be well clear of the maximum 'end stops'.

post #59130 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, Feri. I think the case for staying within the +/-3.5dB range (approximately) is overwhelming, for the reasons I gave (and which Selden added to).

Sorry for that. I see you are still sticking to the idea that the trims have a centroid/ neutral position. How about this analogy: the ABC that starts from A and ends with Z has it's central position between the letters "M" and "N". True, but has no practical meaning. cool.gif
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