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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1981

post #59401 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

I'm glad it's not just me!  I also have issues when Keith posts links to the FAQ.  FWIW, I use the AVS Black skin.  If I'm on a PC then I just "highlight" the text which makes it dark and visible.

It is best to stick to bold, italic and underlined text. CAPITALIZATION is also effective for making a point. Fancy colors are an affectation. smile.gif

IMO.

Jeff

 

That is so true! 

post #59402 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

^ Keith, thanks for putting an end to what was becoming a peculiar discussion.

 

:)  You’re welcome, Jerry.

post #59403 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yes, this is a fault in the skin designs offered by AVS. Done properly, the links would translate correctly to the offered skins. There is no way around it because if I change the colour of the links to suit the black skin, then they are bad for the regular skin.

That wasn't the "problem." The OP inexplicably changed the background color (span style="background-color:rgb(241,241,241);line-height:1.231). (Link color changes are done locally in the browser.) I switched over to AVS Black and couldn't see it there either ....

Jeff

 

Ah yes - but the second comment was about the links colour when using the black skin. Apparently they are hard to see.

post #59404 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That is so true! 

Fancy colours, too!
post #59405 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Yes, this is a fault in the skin designs offered by AVS. Done properly, the links would translate correctly to the offered skins. There is no way around it because if I change the colour of the links to suit the black skin, then they are bad for the regular skin.

That wasn't the "problem." The OP inexplicably changed the background color (span style="background-color:rgb(241,241,241);line-height:1.231). (Link color changes are done locally in the browser.) I switched over to AVS Black and couldn't see it there either ....

Jeff

 

Ah yes - but the second comment was about the links colour when using the black skin. Apparently they are hard to see.

 

Here's what I see when Keith posts the relevant link to the FAQ:

 

 

 

 

Notice the yellow text with white highlight in the link.  Apparently, this is a browser issue?

 

My "simple" fix (referenced to Jeff above) is just to highlight the text using my left mouse button so it turns blue in my browser (IE 8...I know, I know.):

 

post #59406 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
 

Do you see the link below the same, or different?

 

This is a test link to Section a)1 of the Audyssey MultEQ FAQ

 

Edit: I just tested it and the link is a nice yellow on black. I know what the problem is now. When I post a link I go to the FAQ in a separate window and copy (highlight ctrl-c) the link and then paste it (ctrl-v) into the editor. It is bringing the background colour of the FAQ page with it. Not sure it should do that.

 

The problem is, for me, that I post links to the FAQ all the time and that is the easiest and least cumbersome way for me to do it. Because, when it is displayed on a page using the regular skin, the background colour is the same as the copied background colour, it appears without any issues. But anyone using the black skin will get the regular background colour imposed on the black background and the result is what you see.

 

I can't think of an easy way around it. If I don't cut and paste, I'd have to type out the FAQ question in full and then copy the link to the relevant page from my browser address bar and then make a link in the editor and paste the copied link into the heading I have just typed. That is way too cumbersome. When we had the old BB editor we had none of these issues but the 'upgraded' editor is awful to use in many ways.

 

I have also had to ask admin today if they can do anything about an apparent post length limit. The FAQ is currently 3310 lines long (when viewed in my external editor) and if I add 10 more lines, the system barfs and all I get is a FAQ post with no content and just the 'Edited by kbarnes701 on [date]'. If there is no way around this, then there is no way to add more to the FAQ as the need arises. 


Edited by kbarnes701 - 1/24/13 at 9:58am
post #59407 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

I've got a question regarding the use of RS SPL meter as a final check for trim level.

Here's a scenario:
Meter reads 75dB for L,C,R,SL,SR.
Meter reads 75dB for LFE.

Is the LFE level really about 75dB? The meter could be under-read in the low bass region. If we take the meter reading of 75dB, in reality, it could be 90dB or more?

You are confused -- it's NOT the "LFE level", it's the subwoofer channel level. This channel is (should be) 75dB just like the other channels.

The LFE channel gets a 10dB boost with real content where it is present (the "point 1" in 5.1 or 7.1) but what you are measuring with the internal tones is simply the subwoofer channel, which can include both redirected bass from other channels as well as an LFE track. But the internal test tone doesn't pass through the LFE block with the +10dB boost.
post #59408 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

any of you know if Audyssey Pro in this unit allows for shelving filters or any other type of L/T equivalent?

Specifically I'm looking to see if Audyssey Pro in the Marantz AV8801 has the capabilities of doing any sort of low end improvement via shelving filters or similar approaches...

ANYONE???!
post #59409 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

ANYONE???!

No.

You would need an external EQ.
post #59410 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

any of you know if Audyssey Pro in this unit allows for shelving filters or any other type of L/T equivalent?

Specifically I'm looking to see if Audyssey Pro in the Marantz AV8801 has the capabilities of doing any sort of low end improvement via shelving filters or similar approaches...

ANYONE???!

 

I have been using the Pro Kit for several years.  The kit has a curve editor tool that offers a modest amount of customization to the Audyssey target curve.  Whether this meets your criteria of a "shelving filter", I don't know.  I suggest you visit the Audyssey web site and read the description of the curve editor capabilities.

post #59411 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

ANYONE???!

Lo siento, amigo!

Audyssey Pro allows editing of the target curve, so you ccan effect a shelf. There are limits, though, and that includes a +/-3dB max variation.

Jeff
post #59412 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Dodds View Post

No.

You would need an external EQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I have been using the Pro Kit for several years.  The kit has a curve editor tool that offers a modest amount of customization to the Audyssey target curve.  Whether this meets your criteria of a "shelving filter", I don't know.  I suggest you visit the Audyssey web site and read the description of the curve editor capabilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Lo siento, amigo!

Audyssey Pro allows editing of the target curve, so you ccan effect a shelf. There are limits, though, and that includes a +/-3dB max variation.

Jeff

ok, thank you!

I guess it's time to get a miniDSP or another DEQ2496 then. adjusting the target curve for a max of +/- 3dB is not gonna help me.
post #59413 of 70896
^^

Oh, I see what you mean--absolutely true--you can never get the mic in exactly the same position twice, so repeated sets of speaker distance calculations may show small changes.
post #59414 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post



ok, thank you!

I guess it's time to get a miniDSP or another DEQ2496 then. adjusting the target curve for a max of +/- 3dB is not gonna help me.

Why is that?
post #59415 of 70896
I'm currently having a problem with Audyssey in that the center's crossover is being set at 140Hz. With the Onkyo and the other Denon it set the crossover correctly at 80Hz. I wonder if its the mic? Nothing has changed in the placement of the center speaker and similar measurement points are used for Audyssey. Omnimic shows the center as flat down to about 60Hz with Audyssey turned off.

PS. Reran with the mic from my Onkyo and the crossover for the center was set at 120Hz. Still far to high.
Edited by Theresa - 1/24/13 at 2:54pm
post #59416 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


The problem is, for me, that I post links to the FAQ all the time and that is the easiest and least cumbersome way for me to do it. Because, when it is displayed on a page using the regular skin, the background colour is the same as the copied background colour, it appears without any issues. But anyone using the black skin will get the regular background colour imposed on the black background and the result is what you see.

I can't think of an easy way around it. If I don't cut and paste, I'd have to type out the FAQ question in full and then copy the link to the relevant page from my browser address bar and then make a link in the editor and paste the copied link into the heading I have just typed. That is way too cumbersome. When we had the old BB editor we had none of these issues but the 'upgraded' editor is awful to use in many ways.

I don't understand editor issues, but you could just make a local text file with all your FAQ links. Organize it however you wanted, might make individual links easier to find. You should be able to copy/paste to your heart's delight?
Code:
[url=http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#user_c1]Why are my Crossovers set differently to my speaker manufacturer's specification?[/url]

Why are my Crossovers set differently to my speaker manufacturer's specification?

Maybe just divide the FAQ into multiple parts - give you something to ponder ... which bit goes into what part smile.gif
post #59417 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I'm currently having a problem with Audyssey in that the center's crossover is being set at 140Hz. With the Onkyo and the other Denon it set the crossover correctly at 80Hz. I wonder if its the mic? Nothing has changed in the placement of the center speaker and similar measurement points are used for Audyssey. Omnimic shows the center as flat down to about 60Hz with Audyssey turned off.

PS. Reran with the mic from my Onkyo and the crossover for the center was set at 120Hz. Still far to high.

Were you running Audyssey XT32 on your Onkyo, or an older version of Audyssey such as MultiEQ XT or MultiEQ? That might make a difference vs. previous versions of Audyssey, due to the higher filter resolution (512x for both speakers and sub, vs. a lower resolution and less filters for speakers in older versions). Maybe it's finding the sub to be more efficient in producing lower frequencies than the center now.

I noticed something similar when I went from XT32 Consumer to XT32 Pro; my center channel went from 90 Hz (Consumer) to 120Hz and 110 Hz as my top two picks with Pro. I think 90 Hz was about fourth. Imagine how weird that sounded given that I had a center channel with a built-in "sub".

Edit: are you referring to your 4311 experience as your previous Denon? If so, that had XT32, so that does sound strange.
Edited by sdrucker - 1/24/13 at 4:17pm
post #59418 of 70896
I thought I should chime in to let you know I got my replacement amp for my SVS PC12-NSD sub, ran the full Audyssey calibration with an 11 o'clock gain setting and it resulted in a -3dB trim level...YES!!!! It sounds really good with music and satellite viewing and I hope to check out a Blu-ray later tonight. Thanks for all the help from those who contribute to this thread (Keith and Feri especially went out of their way by PMing me whenever I contacted them and I really appreciated it).

Denny
post #59419 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I'm currently having a problem with Audyssey in that the center's crossover is being set at 140Hz. With the Onkyo and the other Denon it set the crossover correctly at 80Hz. I wonder if its the mic? Nothing has changed in the placement of the center speaker and similar measurement points are used for Audyssey. Omnimic shows the center as flat down to about 60Hz with Audyssey turned off.

PS. Reran with the mic from my Onkyo and the crossover for the center was set at 120Hz. Still far to high.

There may not be anything wrong with your center's crossover setting. How does it sound?
Edited by AustinJerry - 1/24/13 at 9:04pm
post #59420 of 70896
Theresa, have you measured any sweeps of your front speakers since this crossover issue? Maybe something has gone south with your CC.

Jeff
post #59421 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You are confused -- it's NOT the "LFE level", it's the subwoofer channel level. This channel is (should be) 75dB just like the other channels.

The LFE channel gets a 10dB boost with real content where it is present (the "point 1" in 5.1 or 7.1) but what you are measuring with the internal tones is simply the subwoofer channel, which can include both redirected bass from other channels as well as an LFE track. But the internal test tone doesn't pass through the LFE block with the +10dB boost.
With the AVR internal test tone playing, do I just adjust the subwoofer channel trim until I get 75dB direct reading on my RS SPL meter?
No meter reading correction table involved?
post #59422 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

The 11-channel version of DTS Neo:X as envisioned by its inventor James Johnston (who occasionally posts at AVS), was to use a standard 7.1 layout and 4 height speakers. DTS opted to use the additional 4 channels as 2 heights and 2 wides instead (maybe influenced by Audyssey?).

Well, at this year's DTS demo at CES, guess what: no wides; 7 speakers around ear level and 4 height speakes, like JJ originally wanted.

Graphics on the Neo:X page at the DTS website have now been changed to reflect the speaker layout described above:

http://www.dts.com/consumers/entertainment-audio/neox.aspx

9.1 = 7.1 + 2 heights
neox_9_1.jpg?w=287&h=148

11.1 = 7.1 + 4 heights
neox_11_1.jpg?w=287&h=148

Dropping wide speakers altogether? No mention of them being optional.
post #59423 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Theresa, have you measured any sweeps of your front speakers since this crossover issue? Maybe something has gone south with your CC.

Jeff

Yes, with Audyssey off the sweeps show it flat down to 60Hz. I'll run some more today, after the rest of the world gets up rolleyes.gif
Edited by Theresa - 1/25/13 at 1:51am
post #59424 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

There may not be anything wrong with your center's crossover setting. How does it sound?

It sounds fine. The Omnimic sweeps with Audyssey off showed it flat down to 60Hz or so. I'll run some more later today.
post #59425 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Audyssey doesn't actually set the XO, Theresa. All it does is report its findings to the AVR which then sets a XO based on however it was programmed to do so. For example, if Audyssey detects the F3 at 60 Hz it will pass that info to the AVR. One AVR could decide, on the basis of that information, to set the speakers to Large while another AVR could decide to set them to a XO of 60Hz. So it is quite possible that the same run, with a different AVR, could result in two different XOs having been set.

HST, the difference between 140Hz and 80Hz is pretty substantial, so if nothing has changed, then it deserves investigation. I would take it to the Audyssey thread for the thoughts of the resident experts. Are you certain beyond doubt that nothing has changed which could affect the F3 that Audyssey is now finding? Besides speaker placement etc which you mention, the position of the Audyssey mic during measurement could also affect the F3 detected. Are you sure you measured with a consistent No 1 mic position? Something is odd - I know your centre speaker is far more capable than a F3 of 140Hz woud indicate.

If you suspect the mic, you can use the mic from your Onkyo which I believe you still have? So long as it is the ACM1H mic, you are good to go.

This FAQ answer has the full skinny on mics:

d)4. Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro?

For all intents and purposes, it's Audyssey that determines where the crossover should be according to where the -3 db point is, at least that's how it should work. I am familiar with the various versions of the mic and whether it's interchangeable. I do still have the mic from my Onkyo and used it and it resulted in a 120Hz crossover. Whats odd is that Omnimic shows the center to be flat to below 60Hz and yet the crossover gets set at either 120Hz or 140Hz.
post #59426 of 70896

Brought over from Emotiva thread.


 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Audyssey doesn't actually set the XO, Theresa. All it does is report its findings to the AVR which then sets a XO based on however it was programmed to do so. For example, if Audyssey detects the F3 at 60 Hz it will pass that info to the AVR. One AVR could decide, on the basis of that information, to set the speakers to Large while another AVR could decide to set them to a XO of 60Hz. So it is quite possible that the same run, with a different AVR, could result in two different XOs having been set.

HST, the difference between 140Hz and 80Hz is pretty substantial, so if nothing has changed, then it deserves investigation. I would take it to the Audyssey thread for the thoughts of the resident experts. Are you certain beyond doubt that nothing has changed which could affect the F3 that Audyssey is now finding? Besides speaker placement etc which you mention, the position of the Audyssey mic during measurement could also affect the F3 detected. Are you sure you measured with a consistent No 1 mic position? Something is odd - I know your centre speaker is far more capable than a F3 of 140Hz woud indicate.

If you suspect the mic, you can use the mic from your Onkyo which I believe you still have? So long as it is the ACM1H mic, you are good to go.

This FAQ answer has the full skinny on mics:

d)4.   Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro?

For all intents and purposes, it's Audyssey that determines where the crossover should be according to where the -3 db point is, at least that's how it should work. 

 

 

Audyssey finds the F3 of the speaker under test and reports it to the AVR. That's all. It's the AVR that then decides which XO to set based on that info. At no time does Audyssey 'set' the XO in the AVR. It seems like it's splitting hairs, but it is an important distinction because AVR manufacturers make the XO choice not Audyssey. This has resulted in some bizarre settings of 'Large' in Onkyos in the past, for example.  HST, if Audyssey detects the F3 at 120/140Hz, the AVR will make an intelligent choice and will select the nearest XO it can to those F3s. 

 

 

Quote:
I am familiar with the various versions of the mic and whether it's interchangeable. I do still have the mic from my Onkyo and used it and it resulted in a 120Hz crossover. Whats odd is that Omnimic shows the center to be flat to below 60Hz and yet the crossover gets set at either 120Hz or 140Hz.

 

 
Yes,  something is amiss for sure. The quandry you have, if we cannot get to the bottom of it, is what to do next. If you lower the XO from 120Hz to 60Hz, you will have zero Audyssey correction on the important centre channel between 60Hz and 120Hz - a significant entire, uncorrected octave. But if you leave it where it is, you may create sub localisation from crossing over at 120Hz. All I can suggest is you conduct listening tests and see which is better for you. I cross over my M&K S150s at 100Hz to my dual Submersives and it sounds wonderful - the speakers are THX certified so start to roll off at 80Hz. I use Audyssey Pro which offers a hierarchical choice of recommended XOs and 100Hz is about 4th on the list with 40Hz being the top selection (room reinforcement). With regular XT32 of course you don't get a choice.  Personally, I wouldn't worry about a XO of 120Hz so long as listening tests showed all to be OK. If you are uncomfortable with 120Hz as a XO, perhaps you could lower it to say 100Hz and thereby only have zero Audyssey correction for the narrow 100-120Hz range.
 
The real question is why Audyssey is detecting a F3 of 120Hz for this speaker. I know you well enough to know you will have thoroughly checked the speaker for malfunction - and in any case there is the independent corroboration of OmniMic measurements.
 
I can’t think of anything else at this point but if I do, I will, of course, let you know.
post #59427 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djoberg View Post

I thought I should chime in to let you know I got my replacement amp for my SVS PC12-NSD sub, ran the full Audyssey calibration with an 11 o'clock gain setting and it resulted in a -3dB trim level...YES!!!! It sounds really good with music and satellite viewing and I hope to check out a Blu-ray later tonight. Thanks for all the help from those who contribute to this thread (Keith and Feri especially went out of their way by PMing me whenever I contacted them and I really appreciated it).

Denny

Great news Denny.

post #59428 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by fjames View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


The problem is, for me, that I post links to the FAQ all the time and that is the easiest and least cumbersome way for me to do it. Because, when it is displayed on a page using the regular skin, the background colour is the same as the copied background colour, it appears without any issues. But anyone using the black skin will get the regular background colour imposed on the black background and the result is what you see.

I can't think of an easy way around it. If I don't cut and paste, I'd have to type out the FAQ question in full and then copy the link to the relevant page from my browser address bar and then make a link in the editor and paste the copied link into the heading I have just typed. That is way too cumbersome. When we had the old BB editor we had none of these issues but the 'upgraded' editor is awful to use in many ways.

I don't understand editor issues, but you could just make a local text file with all your FAQ links. Organize it however you wanted, might make individual links easier to find. You should be able to copy/paste to your heart's delight?
Code:
[url=http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#user_c1]Why are my Crossovers set differently to my speaker manufacturer's specification?[/url]

Why are my Crossovers set differently to my speaker manufacturer's specification?

Maybe just divide the FAQ into multiple parts - give you something to ponder ... which bit goes into what part smile.gif

 

The problem with making a text file of the links is that I can then easily copy a link to the editor as this:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#user_a1

 

But not so easily as the more helpful:

 

a)1.   Where can I find the information I need to help me get a better Audyssey calibration?

 

EDIT:

 

I have, however, tried using Word and the result is this:

 

 

a)10. How can Audyssey measure anything with those silly blips? Shouldn't they use sweeps like everyone else?

 

Does anyone using the black skin see this as a visible link in yellow?? I just tested it and yes, it's fine.

 

The problem is, users using the black skin then select the newly visible link, but when they get to the FAQ, all the links in the FAQ are impossible to read anyway. The problem seems to have arisen when AVS changed the editor from BB Code to HTML and existing posts didn't transfer correctly. The FAQ is too long to remake every link in it, so all I can suggest is people badly affected use the regular skin or highlight links to be able to read them, as previously suggested. The new AVS Editor is hopelessly clunky on very long posts.

 

It is also not possible to remove the bolding following a link quoted in bold, as seen above. I can do it using the source code editor, but it should not be necessary.

 

The AVS editor is good for regular short posts but hopeless as a true 'editor'. I can use the source code but there is no 'search' facility in the editor - try finding one typo in 3310 lines of code without a search facility. And finally, yes I have tried using my own external Editor, which is great for HTML, but when copying and pasting the results across to the AVS editor, the resulting post is 'unpredictable'. 

 

Finally, finally <g>, AVS seems to have a post length limitation which we have now run up against, which means I can't add any new info to the FAQ! Unless they can remove the limit, which I have asked Admin to look at for me.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 1/25/13 at 5:12am
post #59429 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

With the AVR internal test tone playing, do I just adjust the subwoofer channel trim until I get 75dB direct reading on my RS SPL meter?
No meter reading correction table involved?

that's fine. you're really just trying to get into the right balpark so the receiver can calibrate the sub correctly. the test noise goes high enough in frequency that any deviation from absolutely correct (within whatever the RS meter's error range is) will not make asignificant difference in the end. Plus there's no way to accurately correct with a pink noise signal anyway.
post #59430 of 70896
After scanning through the FAQ, wondering if there is any guidance re: Audyssey and "Power tower" type speakers (specifically my Def Tech BP2002's)? I'm wondering if there is anything special that this setup requires for a good Audyssey calibration.

T.Y.!
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