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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 200

post #5971 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

OK. So what is the latency of the SEQ?

It has a single DSP chip and the latency of that chip with the block size it is using is 12 ms

Chris
post #5972 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this. The DSP architecture introduces 15-20 ms of latency depending on the chip model. This has NOTHING to do with Audyssey. You can turn off every digital process including PLIIx, bass management, and everything else and you will still get 10-20 ms if your signal goes through a DSP chip. Always. Every time. Even when Audyssey is off. The only way to avoid the latency is to not send your signal through the DSP chip.

I don't mind being corrected (wouldn't be the first time) but DSPs are just somewhat specialized general purpose processors, and there's no reason you can't pass audio samples through them with an arbitrarily low delay (not withstanding any delays required by particular algorithms). There are plenty of DSP-based real-time audio applications (the digital PEQ I use on my subwoofer only adds 1ms).

Today's receivers are using 15-20ms block sizes and cascading multiple DSPs, but I think that may change, and I think it might be driven by new displays that have reduced latency (with aggressive marketing that says low latency is a good thing, which it is). This could shake up the whole audio market.

And I could be completely wrong .
post #5973 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

...there's no reason you can't pass audio samples through them with an arbitrarily low delay (not withstanding any delays required by particular algorithms). There are plenty of DSP-based real-time audio applications (the digital PEQ I use on my subwoofer only adds 1ms).

Yes, that is true. There is a trade-off between block size (and therefore delay) and processing power. So, if you lower the block size to reduce the delay you will run out of MIPS faster and require more DSP chips. The current chips are running very close to that optimum boundary given how many processes they have to run.

Chris
post #5974 of 70896
I've had the opportunity to set up and run Audyssey on both an Onkyo TX-SR606 and a Denon AVR-789. They were both set up in the same room, in the same place, with no changes made in the room other than swapping out the receivers.

Audyssey sounds wonderful on the Onkyo; very balanced and full. However, I could never get satisfactory results using Audyssey on the Denon. In particular, it was always very bass heavy. I ran Audyssey multiple times, following the microphone placement suggested in this thread. I'm not sure of the reasons for the differences I heard, I'll leave that up to others here who are much more knowledgeable than I. It was just an interesting experiment and I thought I'd post my findings to others here that are interested.

Needless to say, I'm keeping the Onkyo in my setup.
post #5975 of 70896
Not trying to flame a war, but trying to see honest comments/opinions.

What do you say about this post?


Edit : To be honest, I really liked how Audyssey calibrated my Denon 1909, except for the bass (which is little too much) that I am not completely happy with.
post #5976 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post

Not trying to flame a war, but trying to see honest comments/opinions.

What do you say about this post?


Edit : To be honest, I really liked how Audyssey calibrated my Denon 1909, except for the bass (which is little too much) that I am not completely happy with.

I think his experience is certainly valid, but it's worth noting that MCACC does nothing for frequencies below 67 hz(or is it 63hz?)-- unless that's changed, but last I looked it hadn't. That might factor into it.
post #5977 of 70896
Hi Chris,

i have tried to buy a kit in germany, the price for the kit was 756,-- without a license for my DENON 4308. I am very disappointed about the AUDYSSEY price policy for end user. Why you don´t sell the kit to a customer friendly price direct via Internet-Shop? You can easily control with the licenses if a user is using the kit for his own gear or is earning money with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The Audyssey policy is to first put you in touch with a local installer that is qualified to perform MultEQ Pro calibrations. In some cases this has not been possible and we have sold the kit directly to consumers. The kit is identical, but as a consumer you can only use it for the product that you own. You can't perform calibrations for your friends and family. Also, the price for consumers is significantly higher as we are not really in the business of stocking and selling kits. These are normally made available to professional installers through our distribution network.

Chris
post #5978 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by zweihalbehahn View Post

Hi Chris,

i have tried to buy a kit in germany, the price for the kit was 756,-- without a license for my DENON 4308. I am very disappointed about the AUDYSSEY price policy for end user. Why you don´t sell the kit to a customer friendly price direct via Internet-Shop? You can easily control with the licenses if a user is using the kit for his own gear or is earning money with it.

That is very strange. First, we do not sell the kit to consumers in Europe. Second, the Denon 4308 does not support MultEQ Pro in Europe because Denon has not enabled the firmware for their products outside of North America.

Chris
post #5979 of 70896
There is a growing base of users that are PRO capable with the NAD receivers and processors, along with other products. Maybe it's time to rethink your european strategy?
post #5980 of 70896
Couple of quick questions.

I ran the audyssey on my 905 using the guidelines on page 191.

My fronts (Quad 22L2 which go down to 30hz) were set as full band. Should I leave them as such or raise them up to 60hz or so? Everything else was set to 80hz except the rear surrounds at 70hz which are the same Quad L'ites I use for surrounds. So I brought these rear surrounds up to 80hz. Finally I set the LPF from 80hz to 120hz.

Now some of the sitting positions in my living room are outside the direction of the front speakers somewhat. Some of them are awfully close to side or rear surrounds on either side. Should I just use the 8 positions listed as recommended for a single sitting position? Will other sitting positions still benefit? Or is it better to sit the tripod on the other sitting positions even if they are not in great positions? One final note is that my tripod's lowest height setting is slightly higher than ear position.
post #5981 of 70896
Hi Chris,
thanks for response, so for a German DENON 4308 the only way to calibrate is
to use the MultEQ setup routine and the standard microphone?

Kind regards
Michael

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

That is very strange. First, we do not sell the kit to consumers in Europe. Second, the Denon 4308 does not support MultEQ Pro in Europe because Denon has not enabled the firmware for their products outside of North America.

Chris
post #5982 of 70896
Chris,

Do you notice any similarity in the testing functions of audyssey and the AudioControl Iasys?

rob r.
post #5983 of 70896
I was doing some a/b demoing with audyssey turned on and then turned off and wondered if when you go in and turn off audyssey EQ and then want to use it again by turning EQ on in menu if it still has everything saved or by turning it off does it erase certain things? Just want to know if I need to rerun it as it seems after I turned it off and back on that it doesn't have the same imaging, separation as before.
post #5984 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Indy View Post

I was doing some a/b demoing with audyssey turned on and then turned off and wondered if when you go in and turn off audyssey EQ and then want to use it again by turning EQ on in menu if it still has everything saved or by turning it off does it erase certain things? Just want to know if I need to rerun it as it seems after I turned it off and back on that it doesn't have the same imaging, separation as before.

I would like to know this as well.
post #5985 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Some have been able to tilt the mic for in-ceiling speakers in between measurements. It's a little tricky, but it can be done.



In general, this is true. However, it is complicated by the fact that you may end up too far off the vertical axis of the tweeter. Some variation in height is desirable for low frequency capture, but too much will affect the high frequencies.

Chris

If I can add a variation that applies ONLY to large Line array speakers (and large ESL panels).

Since the line arrays radiate HF and mids across several linear feet of surface, I've found there is a huge benefit to varying the height of the microphone by +/- 6 for at least two of the 8 measurement points.

But again, only if you have several linear feet of HF radiating surface.
post #5986 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

My fronts (Quad 22L2 which go down to 30hz) were set as full band. Should I leave them as such or raise them up to 60hz or so?

I suggest setting them to 60 Hz so that you can take advantage of the higher resolution subwoofer room correction filter.

Quote:


Now some of the sitting positions in my living room are outside the direction of the front speakers somewhat. Some of them are awfully close to side or rear surrounds on either side. Should I just use the 8 positions listed as recommended for a single sitting position? Will other sitting positions still benefit? Or is it better to sit the tripod on the other sitting positions even if they are not in great positions? One final note is that my tripod's lowest height setting is slightly higher than ear position.

The diagram in the guide posted on this thread shows the optimum mic placement for a typical living room. It's not intended for a single seat only. In general, we don't recommend putting the mic in "every seat" because these can be off axis or close to the wall as you mentioned. In a dedicated theater with seat rows that is OK to do, but in a living room it will not give you the best results. I would highly recommend that you follow a pattern close to what is in the diagram in the guide even if you only have one listening position. The most common problem with EQ systems is that they base their data collection on a single point in the room and that usually results in very poor performance.

Chris
post #5987 of 70896
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman
Not trying to flame a war, but trying to see honest comments/opinions.

What do you say about this post?5976

Edit : To be honest, I really liked how Audyssey calibrated my Denon 1909, except for the bass (which is little too much) that I am not completely happy with.

Tocaje's response:
I can understand different strokes for different folks BUT...I've had surround sound AVR's for two decades and the surround sound has always been far from what I wanted.
Now with the Denon 1909 and seven speakers and sub AND Audyssey I have finally achieved the kind of surround sound 'intensity' I like. I know others have posted the LFE is too much and I felt the same. I marked the sub's physical volume control from the initial Audyssey calibration and then turned down the sub's volume and it's audio heaven for me.
If I eventually feel the surround speakers are too loud I'll go into the Denon menu and change that too. Yes, I know I won't be getting 'all' the Audyssey benefits but I'll still be getting a fantastic soundfield.

ALSO: Dynamic EQ is wonderful and Dynamic Volume makes life at night super wonderful. Dynamic Volume is the only one out there that I know of that works with all HD audio sources. I was tired of 'nightmode' only working with Dolby Digital. Thank you, thank you, Mr. Audyssey. (And I don't work for or have stock in Audyssey. If another company came up with this stuff I would have bought it)
post #5988 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by zweihalbehahn View Post

Hi Chris,
thanks for response, so for a German DENON 4308 the only way to calibrate is
to use the MultEQ setup routine and the standard microphone?

Kind regards
Michael

Hi Michael,

Yes, that is the only way for now. We hope that Denon will make the firmware available on their European units in the near future.

Chris
post #5989 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob r. View Post

Chris,

Do you notice any similarity in the testing functions of audyssey and the AudioControl Iasys?

rob r.

Hi Rob,

As far as I know, the Iasys system is based on an implementation of the TDS theory proposed by Dick Heyser several years ago. Audyssey room measurement algorithms are based on an impulse response approach and focus on methods for combining multiple measurements to generate a room representative FIR filter for each channel.

Chris
post #5990 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Indy View Post

I was doing some a/b demoing with audyssey turned on and then turned off and wondered if when you go in and turn off audyssey EQ and then want to use it again by turning EQ on in menu if it still has everything saved or by turning it off does it erase certain things? Just want to know if I need to rerun it as it seems after I turned it off and back on that it doesn't have the same imaging, separation as before.

You can turn it on and off without any loss of data.

Chris
post #5991 of 70896
I will be purchasing some new subs soon and wanted to know if I apply Audyssey do I still have to fiddle around with the xover,low pass fitler and Phase or does Audyssey handle most of that?
post #5992 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

I will be purchasing some new subs soon and wanted to know if I apply Audyssey do I still have to fiddle around with the xover,low pass fitler and Phase or does Audyssey handle most of that?

Generally, your processor handles most of that and Audyssey will set it up for you. You do need to turn off/bypass the filters on the sub. Read the summary procedure in this thread.
post #5993 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Generally, your processor handles most of that and Audyssey will set it up for you. You do need to turn off/bypass the filters on the sub. Read the summary procedure in this thread.

Thanks.
post #5994 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by tocaje View Post

I know others have posted the LFE is too much and I felt the same. I marked the sub's physical volume control from the initial Audyssey calibration and then turned down the sub's volume and it's audio heaven for me.

Thanks Tocaje..

So if I understand it right, what you have done is first ran Audyssey so as to get sub trim as "0 db" on Denon. Marked this position on the sub for its volume knob. Then you turned back (to lower side) this physical volume knob on the sub to your liking.

Could you please confirm this? I am about to re-run the Audyssey and would like to follow the steps towards "Audio Heaven"
post #5995 of 70896
Chris,
I am adding a second subwoofer and have consulted with Dr. Hsu from Hsu Research. I'll paste in his suggestion:
"If you like, you can add a VTF-3 MK3 and use your VTF-2 like a MBM-12. Place the VTF-3 MK3 in a front corner furthest from openings, and place the VTF-2 close to you. Set the VTF-2 for max output (two ports open, EQ in 32 Hz position). Set the crossover on the 3.3 to 40 Hz. The 3.3 will run form 40 Hz down and the VTF-2 from 40 Hz up."

My question is how would this configuration work with Audyssey XT. The configuration creates a nearfield sub and farfield sub. What problems and what solutions can be expected. Thank you

Room Length: 24.8
Room Width: 12.3
Room Height: 7.7
Distance of Wall Behind Listener: 8 ft.
Type of Seat: Sofa with loveseat behind on a 8" riser.
post #5996 of 70896
Whats the best tripod for the audyssey mic?
I've been using a stool with a stack of books and i want the best calibration from audyssey as possible.
post #5997 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sterryo View Post

Chris,
I am adding a second subwoofer and have consulted with Dr. Hsu from Hsu Research. I'll paste in his suggestion:
"If you like, you can add a VTF-3 MK3 and use your VTF-2 like a MBM-12. Place the VTF-3 MK3 in a front corner furthest from openings, and place the VTF-2 close to you. Set the VTF-2 for max output (two ports open, EQ in 32 Hz position). Set the crossover on the 3.3 to 40 Hz. The 3.3 will run form 40 Hz down and the VTF-2 from 40 Hz up."

My question is how would this configuration work with Audyssey XT. The configuration creates a nearfield sub and farfield sub. What problems and what solutions can be expected. Thank you

I'm not sure I understand how this would work. The frequencies below 40 Hz will be arriving later than the frequencies above 40 Hz. That is called group delay and it can be very audible, particularly with bass drum or bass guitar that will appear smeared as parts of it arrive from two different locations. If you must have two boxes, then the only way to blend them properly is to have them time aligned to each other. That can be done by digital delay or by physically placing them in the same location.

Chris
post #5998 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Whats the best tripod for the audyssey mic?
I've been using a stool with a stack of books and i want the best calibration from audyssey as possible.

A cheap camera tripod would be best. The threading on the mic is made for this. The stool and stack of books is greatly affecting the measurements and should be avoided at all cost.

Chris
post #5999 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Whats the best tripod for the audyssey mic?
I've been using a stool with a stack of books and i want the best calibration from audyssey as possible.

Since the consumer mics shipped with receivers have the same threading as camera bodies do, a photography tripod makes an easy to find solution.

Even better is a pro-sound mic-stand that would hold the mic over seats.

See choices:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/catego...cessories.html

Use this adapter to mount the Mic to the boom:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...Clip_with.html

You will need to find a 1.5" long knurled 5/16" thread knob to thread through this into the Mic to hold it on. A search on hardware sites should yield something.

there are also other mic adapters that might include angled adjsutment AND a 5/16 thread already. Look around.
post #6000 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

I'm not sure I understand how this would work. The frequencies below 40 Hz will be arriving later than the frequencies above 40 Hz. That is called group delay and it can be very audible, particularly with bass drum or bass guitar that will appear smeared as parts of it arrive from two different locations. If you must have two boxes, then the only way to blend them properly is to have them time aligned to each other. That can be done by digital delay or by physically placing them in the same location.

Chris

would you recommend stacking or side by side
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