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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1991

post #59701 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteout007 View Post

I have a Marantz NR 1403 with Audyssey MultEQ, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume. The receiver only puts out 50 watts per channel and my front floor standing polk tsi 400's require 20-200w. I would like the add a two channel amp to power just these two speakers in my 5.1 system. Will adding an amplifier like Emotiva UPA-200 2-Channel Amplifier mess up my Audyssey calibration?


Thanks,


Dan

No - an external amp won't 'mess Audyssey up' but it would be prudent to run the calibration level again as the external amp's gain may be different from the AVR amps' gain and this could throw the relative levels of the speakers off.

What are you using as a centre channel speaker?  It may be worth considering the XPA-3 to power the R, L & C. The centre channel is the most important in a 5.1 system.  Just a thought.

I believe his receiver only has preouts for FR/FL channels so that idea is a no go.
post #59702 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

No - an external amp won't 'mess Audyssey up' but it would be prudent to run the calibration level again as the external amp's gain may be different from the AVR amps' gain and this could throw the relative levels of the speakers off.

What are you using as a centre channel speaker?  It may be worth considering the XPA-3 to power the R, L & C. The centre channel is the most important in a 5.1 system.  Just a thought.

KBARNES

Thank you for the reply

Please see a list of my equipment and specs below. Just trying to figure out what the best use of $400 is to upgrade my system is. The non brand matching Def Tech Center Channel is due to space requirements in media center. My receiver only has 2.1 preout. So no 3 channel amp for me.


Amp to power under powered Polk TSI400's - Emotiva UPA-200 Stereo Power Amplifier $349
  • 125 watts
  • 8ohms
  • 2 channels


Replace sub with Definitive ProSub 800 $399
  • 8in sub
  • 300 Watt amplifier
  • 20 Hz - 150 Hz


Receiver- Marantz - NR1403 - 50w x 5
Front's - Polk - Tsi400 - 20-200w - 44hz-22khz - 91db
Center - Definitive Technology - Procenter 1000 - 10-200w - 47hz-30khz - 90db
Rear's - Polk - M10 - 20-100w - 60hz-24khz - 90db
Sub - Polk -RM6880 (part of the HTIB package) - 130w dynamic / 65w average - 32-180hz
post #59703 of 70901
Well, why don't YOU tell us what you feel is "lacking" currently. Also it would help to know how big your room is.

My gut is that the $400 would be better spent on a subwoofer upgrade than an external amplifier. Your current sub is pretty puny.

Your Polk towers are relatively efficient (91dB sensitivity spec) so unless you are playing REALLY loud or have a very large room, I doubt that power is an issue.
post #59704 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiteout007 View Post

I have a Marantz NR 1403 with Audyssey MultEQ, Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume. The receiver only puts out 50 watts per channel and my front floor standing polk tsi 400's require 20-200w. I would like the add a two channel amp to power just these two speakers in my 5.1 system. Will adding an amplifier like Emotiva UPA-200 2-Channel Amplifier mess up my Audyssey calibration?


Thanks,


Dan

No - an external amp won't 'mess Audyssey up' but it would be prudent to run the calibration level again as the external amp's gain may be different from the AVR amps' gain and this could throw the relative levels of the speakers off.

What are you using as a centre channel speaker?  It may be worth considering the XPA-3 to power the R, L & C. The centre channel is the most important in a 5.1 system.  Just a thought.

I believe his receiver only has preouts for FR/FL channels so that idea is a no go.

 

Ah right - thanks for the info. I will amend my post.

post #59705 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Well, why don't YOU tell us what you feel is "lacking" currently. Also it would help to know how big your room is.

My gut is that the $400 would be better spent on a subwoofer upgrade than an external amplifier. Your current sub is pretty puny.

Your Polk towers are relatively efficient (91dB sensitivity spec) so unless you are playing REALLY loud or have a very large room, I doubt that power is an issue.

 

+1. 

 

Or, if WAF is not an issue, you can make a lot of DIY room treatments for $400...

post #59706 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Well, why don't YOU tell us what you feel is "lacking" currently. Also it would help to know how big your room is.

My gut is that the $400 would be better spent on a subwoofer upgrade than an external amplifier. Your current sub is pretty puny.

Your Polk towers are relatively efficient (91dB sensitivity spec) so unless you are playing REALLY loud or have a very large room, I doubt that power is an issue.

I am sure the Polk speakers are great. I guess they just lack the overall dynamic I thought that they would carry. I hope that makes sense. Missing mids and lows.

My speakers are set to large on my receiver and it is setup with audyssey. I should check my crossover setting I guess. I think it is set to 60hz..

My room is 20x20 but open concept on the rear facing wall that extends another 15ft. with a half wall divider.
post #59707 of 70901
Referring back to the 3D mapping and remapping of speaker positions... that's what the Trinnov Optimizer claims to do, although it uses a capsule containing 4 microphones, not just 1. I've never owned a Sherwood R-972, but quite a few people have claimed that it worked quite well. It's too bad the receiver had so many other issues.
post #59708 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Changing the XOs manually does not adversely affect the Audyssey calibration. However you are advised to adjust them in an upwards direction only. This FAQ answer has the skinny on that:

c)4.   Is it OK to change the Crossovers from Audyssey's recommendation?

OK, thank you. One last question, I have Def Tech BP7000SC. Def Tech recommends against room correction for they state it can't dial in the subs correctly. Anyone know why this is? Any way to hack around the issue? Will XT32 work better then XT or will it still be a waste for these woofers?
post #59709 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

OK, thank you. One last question, I have Def Tech BP7000SC. Def Tech recommends against room correction for they state it can't dial in the subs correctly. Anyone know why this is? Any way to hack around the issue? Will XT32 work better then XT or will it still be a waste for these woofers?

I really never had a problem with Audyssey and the subs in my BP7000SC's other than I had to tweak the levels a bit from what Audyssey set them at to get the LFE the way I liked it. XT had a hard time pinning down the subwoofer distance since it was only able to test ONE sub. The way to get around that was to run Audyssey with one sub active then again with the other and spend some time tweaking when BOTH are active. XT32 is MUCH better because you can adjust EACH sub independently. I know there are a lot of opinions on running full range with speaker wire or small with RCA to the subs. I actually run mine with both and select LFE+L/R since I have the option of switching to full-range for 2-channel music.
post #59710 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

Def Tech recommends against room correction for they state it can't dial in the subs correctly.

Do you have a reference or link for that?
post #59711 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Changing the XOs manually does not adversely affect the Audyssey calibration. However you are advised to adjust them in an upwards direction only. This FAQ answer has the skinny on that:

c)4.   Is it OK to change the Crossovers from Audyssey's recommendation?

OK, thank you. One last question, I have Def Tech BP7000SC. Def Tech recommends against room correction for they state it can't dial in the subs correctly. Anyone know why this is? Any way to hack around the issue? Will XT32 work better then XT or will it still be a waste for these woofers?

 

Sorry, I am not familiar with those speakers. Maybe someone will chime in, or if there is a thread here at AVS for them, maybe you can get advice there?

 

It seems a sweeping statement to say that room EQ cannot work with those speakers - absent room treatments, how do they suggest you proceed then to combat the negative issues invoked by the room (any domestic-type room)?

post #59712 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Sorry, I am not familiar with those speakers. Maybe someone will chime in, or if there is a thread here at AVS for them, maybe you can get advice there?

It seems a sweeping statement to say that room EQ cannot work with those speakers - absent room treatments, how do they suggest you proceed then to combat the negative issues invoked by the room (any domestic-type room)?

Personally I would cross over the Deftechs at say 60Hz, let them function as three way speakers not as subs and use a good sub with them. I have never heard of a built in "sub" that went as low and as accurate as a good separate sub.
post #59713 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Sorry, I am not familiar with those speakers. Maybe someone will chime in, or if there is a thread here at AVS for them, maybe you can get advice there?

It seems a sweeping statement to say that room EQ cannot work with those speakers - absent room treatments, how do they suggest you proceed then to combat the negative issues invoked by the room (any domestic-type room)?

Personally I would cross over the Deftechs at say 60Hz, let them function as three way speakers not as subs and use a good sub with them. I have never heard of a built in "sub" that went as low and as accurate as a good separate sub.

 

I can't see how a built-in sub can compete with a good separate sub. There are also various other arguments against built-in subs - the most important probably being that it is not possible to position the sub at the best place in the room for the bass because the built-in sub has to be, by definition, positioned at the place where the main speakers are. Given that those speakers have been placed for good imaging etc, it is most unlikely that that is also the best place for the subwoofer(s). Also, with a built-in sub, it is impossible to make the decision to upgrade the sub alone - one would have to replace the mains which could easily be entirely satisfactory in other ways. Even in a two-channel system, I would far prefer to use speakers which excelled down to 80Hz or so and then hand over the heavy bass lifting to one or more capable subs. There are no (main) speakers made that have the bass capability of my dual Submersives, nor the freedom of placement - and this also applies to many other competent subs too. 

 

So yes, if I had the speakers in question, I would treat them as 'normal' speakers and cross them over at 60/80/100Hz (after testing which is sonically best) and let my subs handle the bass. In that sense, they would be good main speakers and the usual Audyssey setup considerations would apply.

post #59714 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I can't see how a built-in sub can compete with a good separate sub.

Few if any of us have them for that reason. We enjoy the effortless reproduction of the important 80-130Hz region even at high playback levels.
post #59715 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Few if any of us have them for that reason. We enjoy the effortless reproduction of the important 80-130Hz region even at high playback levels.

You seem to understand their strengths and look to those strengths accordingly. But I think there are owners who don't have that fine level of understanding. It would not only be with this manufacturer, but any speakers rated to 20-ish or so ... any speaker that purports to have a SUBWOOFER in it.

Jeff
post #59716 of 70901
Agree but playing at higher levels I think is key.
post #59717 of 70901
Effortless playback at high SPLs is the grail.
post #59718 of 70901
Question to all , i have the onkyo 616 , i ran the audyssey setup last night in all 3 positions and for some reason it set the crossover on my two sony ssf6000 floorstanding speakers to 50hz . Is this normal for these speakers and what would raising the crossover up to say 90hz actually do ? Thank you
Edited by justpassedu - 2/7/13 at 8:17am
post #59719 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by justpassedu View Post

Question to all , i have the onkyo 616 , i ran the audyssey setup last night in all 3 positions and for some reason it set the crossover on my two sony ssf6000 floorstanding speakers to 50hz . Is this normal for these speakers and what would raising the crossover up to say 90hz actually do ? Thank you

 

I think you will find the information you seek in these FAQ answers - if not, come back by all means with further questions:

 

c)1.   Why are my Crossovers set differently to my speaker manufacturer's specification?


c)2.   Why do I often see advice to raise the Crossovers to 80Hz?


c)3.   I have big tower speakers at the front. Shouldn't I set these to Large'?


c)4.   Is it OK to change the Crossovers from Audyssey's recommendation?

post #59720 of 70901




I have read through this and would like some forum members advice please , i am still uncertain on what settings i should use but from what i gather is to set my fronts to about a 80hz crossover ?
post #59721 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by justpassedu View Post

I have read through this and would like some forum members advice please , i am still uncertain on what settings i should use but from what i gather is to set my fronts to about a 80hz crossover ?

80 Hz would be an excellent choice.
post #59722 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by justpassedu View Post





I have read through this and would like some forum members advice please , i am still uncertain on what settings i should use but from what i gather is to set my fronts to about a 80hz crossover ?

 

I'm not sure what advice you are looking for that isn't in the FAQ.  Yes, 80Hz is a good choice in general for crossing over the front speakers to a sub.  What is it you are "still uncertain" about?

post #59723 of 70901
I know that all speakers are created differently with different components , so i was wondering a reccomendation as for what to set these exact sony ssf6000 floorstanding speakers to and also what lowering and raising the crossover actually does ? from what i understand is raising it allows more bass to go to the sub instead of the speakers correct ?
post #59724 of 70901
Set the crossover to 80Hz and see if they can handle that, if not then try 100Hz...
Yes, it allows the sub to handle more or less of the signal preventing the speakers from distorting and being overloaded by the bass frequencies. Hate to say it but even though the Sony's are floor standing they do not have very capable drivers and may have trouble even handling 80Hz.
post #59725 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by justpassedu View Post

I know that all speakers are created differently with different components , so i was wondering a reccomendation as for what to set these exact sony ssf6000 floorstanding speakers to and also what lowering and raising the crossover actually does ? from what i understand is raising it allows more bass to go to the sub instead of the speakers correct ?

 

The crossover between the main speakers and the subwoofer is more or less what the name implies. It is the frequency at which the signal is 'split' between the two - so if you set a crossover of 60Hz, then your main speakers handle everything down to 60Hz and the sub handles everything below 60Hz (put simply and ignoring filter slope etc which you don't need to concern yourself with). If you set a crossover of 90Hz, then your mains handle everything down to 90Hz and everything below 90Hz gets sent to the sub.

 

It is a good idea to send the low frequencies to the sub, as explained in the FAQ links I posted before. If you have a good, competent sub, I would try using 80Hz, 90Hz and 100Hz and see if you can hear any differences between them. If you can, then stick with the one that sounds best. If you can't, then use the highest frequency (thus sending more of the lower frequencies to your sub). If you just want a simple recommendation - use 80Hz.

post #59726 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by justpassedu View Post

I know that all speakers are created differently with different components , so i was wondering a reccomendation as for what to set these exact sony ssf6000 floorstanding speakers to and also what lowering and raising the crossover actually does ? from what i understand is raising it allows more bass to go to the sub instead of the speakers correct ?

This is a thread on setting up a HT and good info on how and what to do. This is general info and does not give detailed info about Aduyssey.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/824554/setting-up-your-home-theater-101
post #59727 of 70901
Thank you exact answer i was looking for and i greatly appreciate it . Now while the audyssey setup did set up the speakers at 50hz , i have to admit they sound pretty good to me , i have heard no distortion and i usually listen at a volume of about 50-60 on the onkyo 616 receiver . i have not heard much bass coming from the sub , i believe i may be hearing a bit more coming from the sony's , i could be wrong . the sub i have is the polk audio psw108 - http://www.polkaudio.com/products/psw108
post #59728 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by justpassedu View Post

Thank you exact answer i was looking for and i greatly appreciate it . Now while the audyssey setup did set up the speakers at 50hz , i have to admit they sound pretty good to me , i have heard no distortion and i usually listen at a volume of about 50-60 on the onkyo 616 receiver . i have not heard much bass coming from the sub , i believe i may be hearing a bit more coming from the sony's , i could be wrong . the sub i have is the polk audio psw108 - http://www.polkaudio.com/products/psw108

10 inch driver and a frequency response of 35-200 won't give you enough deep bass. Room size is also a factor. How big is the room?
post #59729 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by justpassedu View Post

Thank you exact answer i was looking for and i greatly appreciate it . Now while the audyssey setup did set up the speakers at 50hz , i have to admit they sound pretty good to me , i have heard no distortion and i usually listen at a volume of about 50-60 on the onkyo 616 receiver . i have not heard much bass coming from the sub , i believe i may be hearing a bit more coming from the sony's , i could be wrong . the sub i have is the polk audio psw108 - http://www.polkaudio.com/products/psw108

As asere says, that sub isn't exactly over-endowed with power or the ability to dig deep. Ultimately, let your ears be the judge and go with what sounds best to you. Your next upgrade would be a truly competent sub IMO - maybe something from the SVS range for example. Follow that with a speaker upgrade. It is worth checking out the classified ads to see if there are some good used bargains around - that can save you a lot of $$$.

post #59730 of 70901
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I can't see how a built-in sub can compete with a good separate sub. There are also various other arguments against built-in subs - the most important probably being that it is not possible to position the sub at the best place in the room for the bass because the built-in sub has to be, by definition, positioned at the place where the main speakers are. Given that those speakers have been placed for good imaging etc, it is most unlikely that that is also the best place for the subwoofer(s). Also, with a built-in sub, it is impossible to make the decision to upgrade the sub alone - one would have to replace the mains which could easily be entirely satisfactory in other ways. Even in a two-channel system, I would far prefer to use speakers which excelled down to 80Hz or so and then hand over the heavy bass lifting to one or more capable subs. There are no (main) speakers made that have the bass capability of my dual Submersives, nor the freedom of placement - and this also applies to many other competent subs too. 

So yes, if I had the speakers in question, I would treat them as 'normal' speakers and cross them over at 60/80/100Hz (after testing which is sonically best) and let my subs handle the bass. In that sense, they would be good main speakers and the usual Audyssey setup considerations would apply.

You couldn't be more right: the built-in subs of the BP or Mythos ST/STS line are only 'competitive' with real subs if you have a small room where you can't have real subs, don't care about reaching down beyond the 30-40 Hz range, or strike it lucky with room placement that supports having the subs in the front of the room (which as you point out is unlikely). And you're allergic to the measurement rabbit hole tongue.gif. You have to start with these as 'full range' speakers and forget they're 'subs'.

Having said that, the real value of powered speakers IMO is the ability to control on-board volume via level matching for the powered section prior to Audyssey runs, which allows somewhat more power to the mid-bass between the crossover from bass management and the true mid-range than you might get from a non-powered speaker. But even so, there's a certain black box element to how the bass radiators in these speakers help you there with harmonics; I once found a review of GoldenEar towers (similar construction approach, designed by Sandy Gross that did the Mythos ST/STS line when he ran DefTech) that suggested there's a natural drop at 150 Hzish, that could only be compensated for by having more sub gain and SPL at the 80 Hzish region. DefTech is pretty fuzzy about how this exactly works, but my guess is that since Audyssey EQs to the -3db point of the speaker, there's a gentle slope from below the crossover to points about the crossover that help you on that front. So getting the right 'blend' of subs and speakers is indeed tricky.

Of course, IME even with three powered speakers (Mythos ST fronts and a CS-8080 HD center) and two HSU subs in my own case, you're somewhat overpaying to get this capability vs. speakers that might do better in the 80 to 200 Hz range. However, the overall quality of the BP/Mythos line is worth the money as a whole IMO. Just keep in mind that in an optimal world, you're not buying them to be subs.

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