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post #59731 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I can't see how a built-in sub can compete with a good separate sub. There are also various other arguments against built-in subs - the most important probably being that it is not possible to position the sub at the best place in the room for the bass because the built-in sub has to be, by definition, positioned at the place where the main speakers are. Given that those speakers have been placed for good imaging etc, it is most unlikely that that is also the best place for the subwoofer(s). Also, with a built-in sub, it is impossible to make the decision to upgrade the sub alone - one would have to replace the mains which could easily be entirely satisfactory in other ways. Even in a two-channel system, I would far prefer to use speakers which excelled down to 80Hz or so and then hand over the heavy bass lifting to one or more capable subs. There are no (main) speakers made that have the bass capability of my dual Submersives, nor the freedom of placement - and this also applies to many other competent subs too. 

So yes, if I had the speakers in question, I would treat them as 'normal' speakers and cross them over at 60/80/100Hz (after testing which is sonically best) and let my subs handle the bass. In that sense, they would be good main speakers and the usual Audyssey setup considerations would apply.

You couldn't be more right: the built-in subs of the BP or Mythos ST/STS line are only 'competitive' with real subs if you have a small room where you can't have real subs, don't care about reaching down beyond the 30-40 Hz range, or strike it lucky with room placement that supports having the subs in the front of the room (which as you point out is unlikely). And you're allergic to the measurement rabbit hole tongue.gif. You have to start with these as 'full range' speakers and forget they're 'subs'.

Having said that, the real value of powered speakers IMO is the ability to control on-board volume via level matching for the powered section prior to Audyssey runs, which allows somewhat more power to the mid-bass between the crossover from bass management and the true mid-range than you might get from a non-powered speaker. But even so, there's a certain black box element to how the bass radiators in these speakers help you there with harmonics; I once found a review of GoldenEar towers (similar construction approach, designed by Sandy Gross that did the Mythos ST/STS line when he ran DefTech) that suggested there's a natural drop at 150 Hzish, that could only be compensated for by having more sub gain and SPL at the 80 Hzish region. DefTech is pretty fuzzy about how this exactly works, but my guess is that since Audyssey EQs to the -3db point of the speaker, there's a gentle slope from below the crossover to points about the crossover that help you on that front. So getting the right 'blend' of subs and speakers is indeed tricky.

Of course, IME even with three powered speakers (Mythos ST fronts and a CS-8080 HD center) and two HSU subs in my own case, you're somewhat overpaying to get this capability vs. speakers that might do better in the 80 to 200 Hz range. However, the overall quality of the BP/Mythos line is worth the money as a whole IMO. Just keep in mind that in an optimal world, you're not buying them to be subs.

\

 

All good points. Personally, I just can't understand why, these days, anyone bothers with speakers that purport to go below 80Hz (I am speaking generally not referencing the DefTechs). It is so much easier to design a speaker that only needs to work down to 80Hz or so than it is to design a "full range" speaker and the former is likely to be a lot less expensive too. Couple it with a competent sub and you can have a speaker system that easily delivers from 20Hz to 20KHz without problems. Using components designed and built for their particular duties just seems to make more sense to me. 

 

I know that in the 'old days', when we using stereo pairs of speakers, things were thought of differently, but nowadays the idea of using speakers that handle 80Hz upwards and a sub for the frequencies below that is so well-known that it surprises me anyone bothers paying all that extra cash for so-called 'full range' speakers (which are usually anything but) and still they are not getting the very lowest frequencies, or certainly not with any worthwhile SPLs. 

 

I guess if the system is for music only, one can argue that there isn't all that much content below 40Hz - but the fact remains that there are still two octaves below that and many movies these days dig that deep routinely. So for HT use this would seem to point indubitably to a sat/sub system. And if you have it for movies, then you may as well use it for music too. Just thinking out loud while we wait for someone with Audyssey-related issues to drop by.

post #59732 of 70884
^^
+1. It's marketing for the majority of folks that buy on specs and want 'capability', or that can't afford or place subs in their room. You know what I think of that.....and I started two years ago with the Mythos ST as my 'subs' after owning a Klipsch RF-7 and 10" Klipsch sub. Our thinking evolves with our experience..biggrin.gif

While I don't plan on swapping out my speakers anytime in the next decade (after what I spent on them!), if I were doing it now and had the time, I'd probably go the route you suggested of doing room measurement and finding some DIY company to design satellites that would best address potential room weaknesses, or maybe go with manufactured speakers with a higher woofer/midrange crossover point (e.g. the SVS line that has a 160 Hz crossover for mains, and 500 Hz crossover for centers on their three-way configurations). It's cheaper and more practical to change well-constructed satellites that are less hefty than a supertower, at any rate.
post #59733 of 70884
Id say the room is about 16ft x 16ft not so big , i did notice that i dont hear much bass coming from the sub . i just bought the sub and polk audio speakers as a package , got a really good deal , i am on a huge budget , just trying to upgrade from my htib for now , i know i got a decent receiver(onkyo616) so speakers and sub upgrade will come in the future , for now i have a small room and my $ needs to be spent on other things. I am pretty happy , i got the polk audio tl1900 system that comes with that sub for $150 and the 2 sony floorstanding speakers(sf6000) were $130 shipped for both plus about $400 for the receiver so it happened to be a decent deal and i can now run 7.1 , i mostly watch movies and some tv with ocassional gaming and 3d blu rays. So tonight i will try 80hz for the fronts , all the polks are set at 120hz and i believe the sub is at 120hz aswell. DOes this all sound ok ? should i keep the 50hz that audyssey eq'ed the fronts at? also noticed that the two polks on the side eq'ed to 150hz while the same speakers i have set up as my rears eq'ed to 120hz so i changed the sides to 120hz also.
Edited by justpassedu - 2/7/13 at 2:21pm
post #59734 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

^^
+1. It's marketing for the majority of folks that buy on specs and want 'capability', or that can't afford or place subs in their room. You know what I think of that.....and I started two years ago with the Mythos ST as my 'subs' after owning a Klipsch RF-7 and 10" Klipsch sub. Our thinking evolves with our experience..biggrin.gif

While I don't plan on swapping out my speakers anytime in the next decade (after what I spent on them!), if I were doing it now and had the time, I'd probably go the route you suggested of doing room measurement and finding some DIY company to design satellites that would best address potential room weaknesses, or maybe go with manufactured speakers with a higher woofer/midrange crossover point (e.g. the SVS line that has a 160 Hz crossover for mains, and 500 Hz crossover for centers on their three-way configurations). It's cheaper and more practical to change well-constructed satellites that are less hefty than a supertower, at any rate.


Well maybe this is my issue..Is that dip at 50hz -3 and causing Audyssey to cross it over? Blue line is Audyssey bypass, purple is Audyssey flat enabled. I know the subs are a bit hot, but I get prettu much the same results if the are a lower.
post #59735 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post



Well maybe this is my issue..Is that dip at 50hz -3 and causing Audyssey to cross it over? Blue line is Audyssey bypass, purple is Audyssey flat enabled. I know the subs are a bit hot, but I get prettu much the same results if the are a lower.

Maybe it's buried somewhere in the thread, but could you give more details? I'd be interested in:
  • Whether you have actual sub(s) or are just using your BP's built-in section as subs (if so, with LFE, I take it?)
  • How you have the on-board gain and trim?
  • Are the BP powered and non-powered sections level matched?
  • Last, but not least, the crossover for the BP mains

That might help me or one of the real gurus on the thread (Keith, are you still up:p?) think about the advice you can try.
post #59736 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Maybe it's buried somewhere in the thread, but could you give more details? I'd be interested in:
  • Whether you have actual sub(s) or are just using your BP's built-in section as subs (if so, with LFE, I take it?)
  • How you have the on-board gain and trim?
  • Are the BP powered and non-powered sections level matched?
  • Last, but not least, the crossover for the BP mains

That might help me or one of the real gurus on the thread (Keith, are you still up:p?) think about the advice you can try.

- I have a 1 Velodyne HGS-18, it's not is use as I'm trying to get my BP7000SC dialed in. I planned on useing the HGS-18 for just LFE when i got it.
- The graph was with the towers at 50% woofer volume
- I would have to have the volume on the woofers at 25% in order to match the mids at 400hz to the woofers at 40hz, I just keep freaking out that I'll loose even more lower midrange at if I have the volume on the wooofers to low.
- No crossover, Audyssey picked them up as large.
post #59737 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Maybe it's buried somewhere in the thread, but could you give more details? I'd be interested in:
  • Whether you have actual sub(s) or are just using your BP's built-in section as subs (if so, with LFE, I take it?)
  • How you have the on-board gain and trim?
  • Are the BP powered and non-powered sections level matched?
  • Last, but not least, the crossover for the BP mains

That might help me or one of the real gurus on the thread (Keith, are you still up:p?) think about the advice you can try.

- I have a 1 Velodyne HGS-18, it's not is use as I'm trying to get my BP7000SC dialed in. I planned on useing the HGS-18 for just LFE when i got it.
- The graph was with the towers at 50% woofer volume
- I would have to have the volume on the woofers at 25% in order to match the mids at 400hz to the woofers at 40hz, I just keep freaking out that I'll loose even more lower midrange at if I have the volume on the wooofers to low.
- No crossover, Audyssey picked them up as large.
post #59738 of 70884
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701

I can't see how a built-in sub can compete with a good separate sub. There are also various other arguments against built-in subs - the most important probably being that it is not possible to position the sub at the best place in the room for the bass because the built-in sub has to be, by definition, positioned at the place where the main speakers are. Given that those speakers have been placed for good imaging etc, it is most unlikely that that is also the best place for the subwoofer(s). Also, with a built-in sub, it is impossible to make the decision to upgrade the sub alone - one would have to replace the mains which could easily be entirely satisfactory in other ways. Even in a two-channel system, I would far prefer to use speakers which excelled down to 80Hz or so and then hand over the heavy bass lifting to one or more capable subs. There are no (main) speakers made that have the bass capability of my dual Submersives, nor the freedom of placement - and this also applies to many other competent subs too.

So yes, if I had the speakers in question, I would treat them as 'normal' speakers and cross them over at 60/80/100Hz (after testing which is sonically best) and let my subs handle the bass. In that sense, they would be good main speakers and the usual Audyssey setup considerations would apply.

You couldn't be more right: the built-in subs of the BP or Mythos ST/STS line are only 'competitive' with real subs if you have a small room where you can't have real subs, don't care about reaching down beyond the 30-40 Hz range, or strike it lucky with room placement that supports having the subs in the front of the room (which as you point out is unlikely). And you're allergic to the measurement rabbit hole . You have to start with these as 'full range' speakers and forget they're 'subs'.

Having said that, the real value of powered speakers IMO is the ability to control on-board volume via level matching for the powered section prior to Audyssey runs, which allows somewhat more power to the mid-bass between the crossover from bass management and the true mid-range than you might get from a non-powered speaker. But even so, there's a certain black box element to how the bass radiators in these speakers help you there with harmonics; I once found a review of GoldenEar towers (similar construction approach, designed by Sandy Gross that did the Mythos ST/STS line when he ran DefTech) that suggested there's a natural drop at 150 Hzish, that could only be compensated for by having more sub gain and SPL at the 80 Hzish region. DefTech is pretty fuzzy about how this exactly works, but my guess is that since Audyssey EQs to the -3db point of the speaker, there's a gentle slope from below the crossover to points about the crossover that help you on that front. So getting the right 'blend' of subs and speakers is indeed tricky.

Of course, IME even with three powered speakers (Mythos ST fronts and a CS-8080 HD center) and two HSU subs in my own case, you're somewhat overpaying to get this capability vs. speakers that might do better in the 80 to 200 Hz range. However, the overall quality of the BP/Mythos line is worth the money as a whole IMO. Just keep in mind that in an optimal world, you're not buying them to be subs.

\

All good points. Personally, I just can't understand why, these days, anyone bothers with speakers that purport to go below 80Hz (I am speaking generally not referencing the DefTechs). It is so much easier to design a speaker that only needs to work down to 80Hz or so than it is to design a "full range" speaker and the former is likely to be a lot less expensive too. Couple it with a competent sub and you can have a speaker system that easily delivers from 20Hz to 20KHz without problems. Using components designed and built for their particular duties just seems to make more sense to me.

I know that in the 'old days', when we using stereo pairs of speakers, things were thought of differently, but nowadays the idea of using speakers that handle 80Hz upwards and a sub for the frequencies below that is so well-known that it surprises me anyone bothers paying all that extra cash for so-called 'full range' speakers (which are usually anything but) and still they are not getting the very lowest frequencies, or certainly not with any worthwhile SPLs.

I guess if the system is for music only, one can argue that there isn't all that much content below 40Hz - but the fact remains that there are still two octaves below that and many movies these days dig that deep routinely. So for HT use this would seem to point indubitably to a sat/sub system. And if you have it for movies, then you may as well use it for music too. Just thinking out loud while we wait for someone with Audyssey-related issues to drop by.
Quote:
Our thinking evolves with our experience..

I have DT 8060 towers, 8040 center, 8040 surrounds, pro monitor 1000's as heights and a HSU VTF-15H subwoofer. I have recently thought I made a mistake instead of getting the Studio Monitor 65's as front L/R. They have decent sized cabinets, same aluminum tweeters and bigger midrange drivers. Also a passive radiator on top. I can also get my mind to a place that says...No the 8060's are better because I can crossover the towers at 80hz which would leave the built in subs to deal with 80hz to about 150hz (I called DT to ask where the built in tower crossovers are crossed at. They didn't give me a Definitive answer, pun intended). So in effect it would offer an overall smoother blending from the sub to the built in subs to the midrange drivers to the tweeters. Of course my experience is very short and just began literally months ago. For example, I just bought my first SPL meter an hour ago. Just a natural logical thought process would seem like this is good. Now I may sell my towers and get the studio monitors down the road, who knows. I am going to hook up LFE to the towers and the sub, level it out with the meter and run audyssey again just to see how it sounds. If anything it will offer me experience in my journey.
post #59739 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post


I have DT 8060 towers, 8040 center, 8040 surrounds, pro monitor 1000's as heights and a HSU VTF-15H subwoofer. I have recently thought I made a mistake instead of getting the Studio Monitor 65's as front L/R. They have decent sized cabinets, same aluminum tweeters and bigger midrange drivers. Also a passive radiator on top. I can also get my mind to a place that says...No the 8060's are better because I can crossover the towers at 80hz which would leave the built in subs to deal with 80hz to about 150hz (I called DT to ask where the built in tower crossovers are crossed at. They didn't give me a Definitive answer, pun intended). So in effect it would offer an overall smoother blending from the sub to the built in subs to the midrange drivers to the tweeters. Of course my experience is very short and just began literally months ago. For example, I just bought my first SPL meter an hour ago. Just a natural logical thought process would seem like this is good. Now I may sell my towers and get the studio monitors down the road, who knows. I am going to hook up LFE to the towers and the sub, level it out with the meter and run audyssey again just to see how it sounds. If anything it will offer me experience in my journey.


Sounds like you're on the right track - doing the leveling out as you're describing and running Audyssey, and doing the 80 Hz crossover with the HSU VTF-15H on hand. FYI, I had Joe @ DefTech (their rep on the DefTech and Mythos threads) look up the internal crossover point for my Mythos ST a while back, and he told me that it was 80 Hz between the woofer and the mid-range, and I believe 90 Hz for their powered centers. However, with the passive radiators I don't know how absolute this is depending on how they influence upper bass with harmonics. So when you factor this in, the actual crossover point may be higher. Or not...they haven't been very clear about this.

FWIW, I'd ideally like to test my own Mythos ST at 100 Hz if I could, to compare to 80 Hz, on a post-Audyssey eval with external measurement software (OmniMic or REW). But I have the Pro kit, and I don't get 100 Hz as a crossover, so I can't legitimately use that crossover for my fronts (and I really don't want to go back to consumer Audyssey after working with Pro). It may sound nuts, but when you've got highly capable sub(s) such as the HSU line, not as trivial as one might think. But maybe I'll do it with the consumer version, as an experiment once I get more into the REW measurement and get some experience with waterfall and ETC plots.

If you haven't, you should query about the Studio Monitor vs. 80xx line on the DefTech speaker thread
Edited by sdrucker - 2/7/13 at 8:35pm
post #59740 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

- I have a 1 Velodyne HGS-18, it's not is use as I'm trying to get my BP7000SC dialed in. I planned on useing the HGS-18 for just LFE when i got it.
- The graph was with the towers at 50% woofer volume
- I would have to have the volume on the woofers at 25% in order to match the mids at 400hz to the woofers at 40hz, I just keep freaking out that I'll loose even more lower midrange at if I have the volume on the wooofers to low.
- No crossover, Audyssey picked them up as large.

A couple of things:
If you've got an HGS-18, you ultimately want it handling both LFE as well as any redirected bass due to bass management from your mains. I would, because as a dedicated sub that goes lower than the BPs, it will handle lower, non-LFE bass better than your mains (especially since DefTech tends to be rather liberal about how far down their speakers will reach at - 3db). With the HGS-18 active as your sub, that will allow Audyssey to EQ the sub and your mains at the same time. This will be more efficient, and likely sound better, than running a "mains" EQ and a sub EQ separately, as Audyssey will evaluate the entire range of frequencies at one calibration.

In my opinion, what you're running into in part are issues associated with running your BP as Large. If the speakers are "Large", Audyssey is effectively EQing them to 40 Hz, which is likely close to the actual - 3 db of your mains (and doing nothing for you below that point, while it would EQ your HGS-18 below 40 Hz to whatever the -3db of that sub is). Hence, you're probably getting some issues associated with this EQ point, plus you're more likely to overstrain your speakers trying to reproduce those low frequencies (particularly at higher volumes). You'd be better off having your mains as Small and crossing them over at 60 Hz or 80 Hz. In fact, the conventional wisdom is 80 Hz.

Before you do a new Audyssey run, though, I'd recommend having the measured volume of your built-in woofers calibrated to be at the same volume as the non-powered section of those BP speakers (e.g. at 75 db). That will help eliminate anomolies from the difference in volume between the sections, as well as properly tune your speaker to be "full range". That way, Audyssey can set a trim for each main speaker that will better capture its response. As to volume, as long as you're running your real sub and using your AVR's bass management (setting speakers to small with appropriate crossovers), I'd worry less about on-board woofer volume and more about letting the Velodyne reproduce the bass accurately. Make sure that after Audyssey, you have your sub in a - 3 to + 3 db trim range for leaving enough headroom to EQ the subs. You can always fine-tune sub and speaker trim set by the AVR afer the Audyssey run if you want louder bass (as opposed to on-board trim, which you shouldn't touch after Audyssey).

By the way, in my system, I have my HSU subs on-board trim at approximately 9:30 (a little more than 1/4), and my Mythos ST on-board woofer volume is roughly at 1:00 (a little more than 1/2). Even though volume can be room-specific, that 25% sounds low. Is this volume match at 70-75 db, using the AVR's (or REW) test tones?
post #59741 of 70884
Quote:
Sounds like you're on the right track - doing the leveling out as you're describing and running Audyssey, and doing the 80 Hz crossover with the HSU VTF-15H on hand. FYI, I had Joe @ DefTech (their rep on the DefTech and Mythos threads) look up into the internal crossover point for my Mythos ST a while back, and he told me that it was 80 Hz between the woofer and the mid-range, and I believe 90 Hz for their powered centers. However, with the passive radiators I don't know how absolute this is depending on how they influence upper bass with harmonics. So when you factor this in, the actual crossover point may be higher. Or not...they haven't been very clear about this.

FWIW, I'd ideally like to test my own Mythos ST at 100 Hz if I could, to compare to 80 Hz, on a post-Audyssey eval with external measurement software (OmniMic or REW). But I have the Pro kit, and I don't get 100 Hz as a crossover, so I can't legitimately use that crossover for my fronts (and I really don't want to go back to consumer Audyssey after working with Pro). It may sound nuts, but when you've got highly capable sub(s) such as the HSU line, not as trivial as one might think. But maybe I'll do it with the consumer version, as an experiment once I get more into the REW measurement and get some experience with waterfall and ETC plots.

If you haven't, you should query about the Studio Monitor vs. 80xx line on the DefTech speaker thread

Well I took down my pro monitor 1000 heights because Audyssey said one was out of phase. Not sure why because it ran fine last week when I got my Denon 3313. Either way I wasn't planning on having them there long because I had them mounted with a drywall screw in the keyhole. Besides not feeling comfortable with the secureness they were sitting recessed from the 8060 towers obviously as they were directly on the wall. Anyway...

Here is what Audyssey did. Front L/R at 200hz, center at 60hz, and surrounds at 250hz. Sub at -6db. Not so ideal I know. Previously it was Front L/R at full range (which I switched to 80hz), center at full range (also set to 80hz), surrounds at 150hz. sub at -3.5 db.

I didn't touch the gain on the 15H amp, so the LFE to the 8060 towers must have influenced the change. I don't think the LFE's to the towers had any influence as the 15H is a beast and also my room is generally small. In my opinion it actually took away from the overall sound. Does anyone have any links for learning how to use REW?
post #59742 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

A couple of things:
If you've got an HGS-18, you ultimately want it handling both LFE as well as any redirected bass due to bass management from your mains. I would, because as a dedicated sub that goes lower than the BPs, it will handle lower, non-LFE bass better than your mains (especially since DefTech tends to be rather liberal about how far down their speakers will reach at - 3db). With the HGS-18 active as your sub, that will allow Audyssey to EQ the sub and your mains at the same time. This will be more efficient, and likely sound better, than running a "mains" EQ and a sub EQ separately, as Audyssey will evaluate the entire range of frequencies at one calibration.

In my opinion, what you're running into in part are issues associated with running your BP as Large. If the speakers are "Large", Audyssey is effectively EQing them to 40 Hz, which is likely close to the actual - 3 db of your mains (and doing nothing for you below that point, while it would EQ your HGS-18 below 40 Hz to whatever the -3db of that sub is). Hence, you're probably getting some issues associated with this EQ point, plus you're more likely to overstrain your speakers trying to reproduce those low frequencies (particularly at higher volumes). You'd be better off having your mains as Small and crossing them over at 60 Hz or 80 Hz. In fact, the conventional wisdom is 80 Hz.

Before you do a new Audyssey run, though, I'd recommend having the measured volume of your built-in woofers calibrated to be at the same volume as the non-powered section of those BP speakers (e.g. at 75 db). That will help eliminate anomolies from the difference in volume between the sections, as well as properly tune your speaker to be "full range". That way, Audyssey can set a trim for each main speaker that will better capture its response. As to volume, as long as you're running your real sub and using your AVR's bass management (setting speakers to small with appropriate crossovers), I'd worry less about on-board woofer volume and more about letting the Velodyne reproduce the bass accurately. Make sure that after Audyssey, you have your sub in a - 3 to + 3 db trim range for leaving enough headroom to EQ the subs. You can always fine-tune sub and speaker trim set by the AVR afer the Audyssey run if you want louder bass (as opposed to on-board trim, which you shouldn't touch after Audyssey).

By the way, in my system, I have my HSU subs on-board trim at approximately 9:30 (a little more than 1/4), and my Mythos ST on-board woofer volume is roughly at 1:00 (a little more than 1/2). Even though volume can be room-specific, that 25% sounds low. Is this volume match at 70-75 db, using the AVR's (or REW) test tones?

Great, thanks for the input. Tomorrow I'll manually ensure the woofers, mids, and HGS are at the same level. I'll use white noise with my SPL meter set on C weighted and slow. I'll then run XT again.

To clarify, Audyssey won't EQ mains below 40hz? Only the subwoofer port? Wonder why? As you can see the woofer in the two's are sort of flat to 25hz. That's better then some midrange subswoofers! lol
post #59743 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

To clarify, Audyssey won't EQ mains below 40hz? Only the subwoofer port? Wonder why? As you can see the woofer in the two's are sort of flat to 25hz. That's better then some midrange subswoofers! lol

I did say "effectively" down to 40 Hz. Audyssey will EQ mains below 40 Hz if the mains can handle it (Keith or someone, correct me if I'm wrong there). However, in practice you're not going to have much FR below 40 Hz. You may be kind of/sort of reaching down to 25 Hz; whether it's a good idea for your speakers to do this is a different story at higher volumes, and given the speaker placement vs. what would be a better placement for reproducing low frequencies with a dedicated sub.

It's just going to do a better job with those frequencies with a quality dedicated sub like your Velodyne, because it can get below 25 Hz with more ease than almost any manufactured speaker. But if you're only running mains and no sub in your system (and your BP on speaker wire), it's a moot point because a "Small" setting isn't relevant. And even if you were to use LFE cabling for your mains and use the connection to approximate a sub (with a Y-connection and setting the mains to "Small" in that scenario), you can't physically go beyond the speaker's bass handling.

At any rate, the Audyssey advice is always to run your mains as Small if you have subwoofers active. The 80 Hz level is a general recommendation for mains as long as the speakers can handle it, but you can experiment to see if, say, 60 Hz works for you.

You might want to see:
http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large
Edited by sdrucker - 2/7/13 at 10:20pm
post #59744 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Well I took down my pro monitor 1000 heights because Audyssey said one was out of phase. Not sure why because it ran fine last week when I got my Denon 3313. Either way I wasn't planning on having them there long because I had them mounted with a drywall screw in the keyhole. Besides not feeling comfortable with the secureness they were sitting recessed from the 8060 towers obviously as they were directly on the wall. Anyway...

Here is what Audyssey did. Front L/R at 200hz, center at 60hz, and surrounds at 250hz. Sub at -6db. Not so ideal I know. Previously it was Front L/R at full range (which I switched to 80hz), center at full range (also set to 80hz), surrounds at 150hz. sub at -3.5 db.

I didn't touch the gain on the 15H amp, so the LFE to the 8060 towers must have influenced the change. I don't think the LFE's to the towers had any influence as the 15H is a beast and also my room is generally small. In my opinion it actually took away from the overall sound. Does anyone have any links for learning how to use REW?

That sound strange. Are you sure that you now have the 15H connected by LFE so it's an active subwoofer, and haven't inadvertedly turned off the powered section of your L/R? If you've level matched the 'powered' and 'non-powered' sections of each 8060 by leveraging the on-board woofer trim on a temporary LFE connection (using the AVR's test tones), you don't need to keep them connected via LFE when you'll run Audyssey with your 15H connected.

As for REW, you can check out this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs

There's a evolving user's guide to REW being complied by AVS user AustinJerry that you can read as well.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/270#post_22823228
Edited by sdrucker - 2/7/13 at 11:04pm
post #59745 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by justpassedu View Post

Id say the room is about 16ft x 16ft not so big , i did notice that i dont hear much bass coming from the sub . i just bought the sub and polk audio speakers as a package , got a really good deal , i am on a huge budget , just trying to upgrade from my htib for now , i know i got a decent receiver(onkyo616) so speakers and sub upgrade will come in the future , for now i have a small room and my $ needs to be spent on other things. I am pretty happy , i got the polk audio tl1900 system that comes with that sub for $150 and the 2 sony floorstanding speakers(sf6000) were $130 shipped for both plus about $400 for the receiver so it happened to be a decent deal and i can now run 7.1 , i mostly watch movies and some tv with ocassional gaming and 3d blu rays. So tonight i will try 80hz for the fronts , all the polks are set at 120hz and i believe the sub is at 120hz aswell. DOes this all sound ok ? should i keep the 50hz that audyssey eq'ed the fronts at? also noticed that the two polks on the side eq'ed to 150hz while the same speakers i have set up as my rears eq'ed to 120hz so i changed the sides to 120hz also.

c)6.   Why is Audyssey setting different crossovers for my identical speakers?

post #59746 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post



Well maybe this is my issue..Is that dip at 50hz -3 and causing Audyssey to cross it over? Blue line is Audyssey bypass, purple is Audyssey flat enabled. I know the subs are a bit hot, but I get prettu much the same results if the are a lower.

Maybe it's buried somewhere in the thread, but could you give more details? I'd be interested in:
  • Whether you have actual sub(s) or are just using your BP's built-in section as subs (if so, with LFE, I take it?)
  • How you have the on-board gain and trim?
  • Are the BP powered and non-powered sections level matched?
  • Last, but not least, the crossover for the BP mains

That might help me or one of the real gurus on the thread (Keith, are you still up:p?) think about the advice you can try.

 

I don't know about 'guru' status, Stuart, but I generally keep out of discussions that involve speakers with built-in powered subs. Mainly because I don't know all that much about them and, from a purely personal POV only, would never, ever buy speakers that even pretended to dig much deeper than 60-80Hz, let alone used a powered internal sub to help in that regard. As I said before, in the days of totally banging subs and smaller, cheaper, easier-to-design satellite speakers, I just don't see the point.  HST, those who have such speakers have them, and probably want to keep them, and they deserve a good answer to their queries - I'm just not the person to give them that answer. You seem to be doing a great job with the OP anyway!

post #59747 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

 Does anyone have any links for learning how to use REW?

 

Follow the link in my sig. A bunch of us are embarking on learning REW, using the latest simplified version that enables connection with just a USB mic and a HDMI cable. There is also a terrific REW guide being developed and you can download it from that thread.

post #59748 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't know about 'guru' status, Stuart, but I generally keep out of discussions that involve speakers with built-in powered subs. Mainly because I don't know all that much about them and, from a purely personal POV only, would never, ever buy speakers that even pretended to dig much deeper than 60-80Hz, let alone used a powered internal sub to help in that regard. As I said before, in the days of totally banging subs and smaller, cheaper, easier-to-design satellite speakers, I just don't see the point.  HST, those who have such speakers have them, and probably want to keep them, and they deserve a good answer to their queries - I'm just not the person to give them that answer. You seem to be doing a great job with the OP anyway!

Yes, I would never buy a full range speaker that claims to integrate a sub. Separate subs are just so much more flexible. I would perhaps consider a three way speaker with a built in passive woofer but that's a whole different animal and I would use it with a sub.
post #59749 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't know about 'guru' status, Stuart, but I generally keep out of discussions that involve speakers with built-in powered subs. Mainly because I don't know all that much about them and, from a purely personal POV only, would never, ever buy speakers that even pretended to dig much deeper than 60-80Hz, let alone used a powered internal sub to help in that regard. As I said before, in the days of totally banging subs and smaller, cheaper, easier-to-design satellite speakers, I just don't see the point.  HST, those who have such speakers have them, and probably want to keep them, and they deserve a good answer to their queries - I'm just not the person to give them that answer. You seem to be doing a great job with the OP anyway!

Yes, I would never buy a full range speaker that claims to integrate a sub. Separate subs are just so much more flexible. I would perhaps consider a three way speaker with a built in passive woofer but that's a whole different animal and I would use it with a sub.

 

Agreed. When I look at my subs and their dual 15 inch drivers, huge amps and substantial cabinetry, it just seems obvious to me that I will never encounter a regular speaker that can even hope to deliver the same quality and amount of bass. And that is to ignore the placement problems when trying to get the main speakers in the right place for soundstage and imagery and the subs in the right place for optimum interaction with the room and its modes. Life has moved on from the 70s and subs are an accepted fact of audio life these days, thankfully!  As Stuart said earlier, as we learn more, we understand more. (I just checked - he actually said "Our thinking evolves with our experience" which is a better way of putting it than I just did).

post #59750 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Agreed. When I look at my subs and their dual 15 inch drivers, huge amps and substantial cabinetry, it just seems obvious to me that I will never encounter a regular speaker that can even hope to deliver the same quality and amount of bass. And that is to ignore the placement problems when trying to get the main speakers in the right place for soundstage and imagery and the subs in the right place for optimum interaction with the room and its modes. Life has moved on from the 70s and subs are an accepted fact of audio life these days, thankfully!  As Stuart said earlier, as we learn more, we understand more. (I just checked - he actually said "Our thinking evolves with our experience" which is a better way of putting it than I just did).

I remember AR9s fondly, their woofers were close to subs but as you say we have evolved. You have extra-special subs but even smaller less capable subs such as mine do far better than integrated one's could, if not for any reason other than their size.
post #59751 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

I have Def Tech BP7000SC. Def Tech recommends against room correction for they state it can't dial in the subs correctly. Anyone know why this is?

Can you provide a reference where Def Tech says that?
post #59752 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Can you provide a reference where Def Tech says that?

The integrated subs certainly complicate things. I wouldn't do without Audyssey though even if it meant getting different speakers.
post #59753 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Agreed. When I look at my subs and their dual 15 inch drivers, huge amps and substantial cabinetry, it just seems obvious to me that I will never encounter a regular speaker that can even hope to deliver the same quality and amount of bass. And that is to ignore the placement problems when trying to get the main speakers in the right place for soundstage and imagery and the subs in the right place for optimum interaction with the room and its modes. Life has moved on from the 70s and subs are an accepted fact of audio life these days, thankfully!  As Stuart said earlier, as we learn more, we understand more. (I just checked - he actually said "Our thinking evolves with our experience" which is a better way of putting it than I just did).

I remember AR9s fondly, their woofers were close to subs but as you say we have evolved. You have extra-special subs but even smaller less capable subs such as mine do far better than integrated one's could, if not for any reason other than their size.

 

Yes, I had a pair of Kef 107/2 speakers that had two 10 inch drivers each and a form of active EQ which Kef called "Kube". They could allegedly go to 20Hz flat. They were also, at the time (late 80s or early 90s) vastly expensive. They were fabulous speakers but they still suffered the unavoidable problem of having the bass drivers located in the same place as the other drivers. At the time I knew nothing at all about the impact of the room on the SQ so I fiddled about, moving these huge and heavy speakers around until they 'sounded good'. The majority of the bulk of the speakers was for the bass drivers - the mid-range and tweeters were housed in a swivelling, separate enclosure on top of the main enclosure and measured about 12 inches high - so if separate subs had been the order of the day, I could have had all of the rest of the 107/2 experience from two small bookshelf units and a pair of subs, placed optimally. It is much easier to hide the subs than the mains of course so there is also a big benefit there too for those without dedicated rooms - the physical size of the main speakers can be quite small if one only requires that they operate down to 100Hz. 

 

Here's what they looked like (with the KUBE unit too)...

 

 

 

 

post #59754 of 70884
They were really satellites sitting on top of subs, weren't they?! Subs are ever so much easier to optimally place.
post #59755 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Can you provide a reference where Def Tech says that?

Go to their website and download the manual for the BP8060.
.
"VERY IMPORTANT:
Do not use your receiver’s auto setup functions as they are often
ineffective in setting up and adjusting speakers with built-in
powered subwoofers!"
post #59756 of 70884
So what speakers are the best for Audyssey and which ones are bad? Does KEF work well? Should the mids and tweeters be sealed, etc?
post #59757 of 70884
Audyssey makes all speakers sound better. The room equalization algorithm works best, however, when the speakers and room already provide high quality sound. The traditional way to find the best speakers is to audition them. Visit your local A/V stores and find the ones that sound best to you. You'll be surprised at how different the different models sound. Take music that's familiar so you know what it should sound like. Persuade the sellers to let you audition the final candidates in your home, since your room's acoustics will make a big difference in how the speakers sound.
post #59758 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by truwarrior22 View Post

So what speakers are the best for Audyssey and which ones are bad? Does KEF work well? Should the mids and tweeters be sealed, etc?

 

Audyssey doesn't care what speakers you use. Audyssey 'listens' to the way the speakers reproduce the test tones (chirps) in your room and sets the distance and levels and creates filters for the frequency range down to where there is a drop-off in SPL of 3dB (the F3 point).  Audyssey has no way of knowing, and cares less, if the tweeters (or other drivers) are this type or that type or made of green cheese - it just hears what the tweeter reproduces and matches that to its target curve by creating inverse filters. IOW, if there is a 3dB peak at 8Khz it will create a 3dB 'dip' at the same frequency so the result is 'flat'. This is a gross oversimplification but it is correct as far as it goes. Audyssey can create thousands of such filters in its aim to meet the target curve.

 

The discussion above is centred on speakers with powered bass drivers. These speakers are not all that common and they may, or may not, require special consideration when setting up. If you don't have this type of speaker you can safely ignore all the posts above which discuss it (unless you want to learn about the subject for the sake of learning of course). 

 

Bottom line: Audyssey works with any type of speaker because it isn't listening to speakers - it is listening to the sound the speakers make in the room they are placed in.

 

EDIT: Plus 1 to Selden's post which came in as I was typing mine.

post #59759 of 70884
Hi I have a question!

Is it just the sound level that determines how much you experience the surround speakers, or does Audyssey using some kind of algorithm to calculate how present and active surround speakers should be?
Why I ask is that I feel that I get slightly different results ,sometimes the surroundspeakers blends in seamlessly and sometimes they get more present and I have tried to experiment some times by simply raising or lowering the sound level but do not feel that I reach the same result, so how does it actually work?
post #59760 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fischer View Post

Hi I have a question!

Is it just the sound level that determines how much you experience the surround speakers, or does Audyssey using some kind of algorithm to calculate how present and active surround speakers should be?
Why I ask is that I feel that I get slightly different results ,sometimes the surroundspeakers blends in seamlessly and sometimes they get more present and I have tried to experiment some times by simply raising or lowering the sound level but do not feel that I reach the same result, so how does it actually work?

IIRC the way AUdyssey CTO Chris K described it, they got several different movie mixing pros into a room and played back movies at lowered volumes. Gave them sliders to "correct" the surround levels, and tracked the results electronically. Through some process they give us something like the average correction tha tthe mixers would use for specific deviations from reference. So it likely changes as levels in various channels change through a movie, but AFAIK they don't let go of the intellectual property that constitutes the actual adjustements they make, or the precise basis on which they make the adjustments.
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