or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1996

post #59851 of 70892
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84

For the sake of learning let me ask a few questions. Since Audyssey did the EQ work on the fronts and the sub how would they undo some of the work Audyssey has done. I mean if audyssey set the towers to large at first then it would be ok right? Or is it cancelled because of the LFE+main selection?
Quote:
First, the "double bass" is taking you away from "reference"

What is reference? 75db across the board?

For those using XT, the main impact of using double bass with Audyssey is explained in the FAQ answer I just linked to:

"Also, the XT and MultEQ versions of Audyssey apply more correction filters to the subwoofer frequencies. If the same frequencies are sent to the main speakers and the subwoofer at the same time, you will apply higher resolution filters to the same frequencies in the subwoofer and lower resolution filters to the same frequencies going to the front speakers. When the two low frequency sources are combined, we will have unpredictable results to say the least."

Double bass is just a bad idea. Audyssey campaigned for AVR manufacturers to remove it but they refused. It will cause potential phase cancellation issues, muddy or bloated bass, the issue mentioned above etc. Read the FAQ answer for a fuller explanation.

Reference is explained here:

Sweet, thanks gents.
post #59852 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Batpig has given you a superb answer - you may also care to look at the FAQ, here:

f)7.    What is ‘LFE + Main’ or ‘Double Bass’ and should I use it?
Here's a quote from my Denon 3312 manual:
Quote:
Bass Setting : Set subwoofer and LFE signal range playback.
• LFE : The low range signal of the channel set to “Small” speaker size is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.
• LFE+Main : The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.

Select “LFE+Main” if you want the bass signals to always be produced from the subwoofer.
For Denon, setting LFE+Main is the correct thing to do.
post #59853 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Here's a quote from my Denon 3312 manual:
For Denon, setting LFE+Main is the correct thing to do.

That quote just doesn't make sense and you should consider that there is a consensus among those understanding Audyssey and bass management that LFE+Main is a bad idea.
post #59854 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

That quote just doesn't make sense and you should consider that there is a consensus among those understanding Audyssey and bass management that LFE+Main is a bad idea.

+1

WIth LFE plus main, all the bass for, say the left channel is fed to the left channel at full strength. If you have, say, an 80 Hz low pass set, all the bass for the left channel below 80 hz also gets sent ot the sub, at full strength. Just right + just right = too much (assuming no phase oddities to impair frequency response at some frequencies).
post #59855 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Batpig has given you a superb answer - you may also care to look at the FAQ, here:

f)7.    What is ‘LFE + Main’ or ‘Double Bass’ and should I use it?
Here's a quote from my Denon 3312 manual:
Quote:
Bass Setting : Set subwoofer and LFE signal range playback.
• LFE : The low range signal of the channel set to “Small” speaker size is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.
• LFE+Main : The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer.

Select “LFE+Main” if you want the bass signals to always be produced from the subwoofer.
For Denon, setting LFE+Main is the correct thing to do.

 

Well you may have your own opinion on it but it is hardly the 'correct' thing to do, for the reasons given. Audyssey's advice is to never use it, the general consensus of every respected poster who has commented on it is to never use it. The person who knows as much, or more, about Denon than pretty much anyone, is baptig, and you can read his advice on it a few posts back.  If you prefer the sound, muddied bass, overblown bass, likely phase cancellation and all, that is your prerogative. But your preference doesn't make something 'correct'.

post #59856 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

That quote just doesn't make sense and you should consider that there is a consensus among those understanding Audyssey and bass management that LFE+Main is a bad idea.
Are you saying that Denon is wrong?
Base on my understanding, Denon definition of LFE+Main is that subwoofer is playing LFE signal plus all the bass signals from the main speakers. Other AVR manufacturer could define that just the opposite way.

Denon's definition: Subwoofer producing bass for LFE track + Mains speakers audio track
Other manufacturers definition: Subwoofer+Main speakers are producing bass together (double bass)
post #59857 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Here's a quote from my Denon 3312 manual:
For Denon, setting LFE+Main is the correct thing to do.

That quote just doesn't make sense and you should consider that there is a consensus among those understanding Audyssey and bass management that LFE+Main is a bad idea.

+1. "Select “LFE+Main” if you want the bass signals to always be produced from the subwoofer" is gibberish. The Denon manuals seem to have been translated by Google Translate - fortunately Denon aficianados have batpig's Denon-English Dictionary to rely on instead.

post #59858 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

That quote just doesn't make sense and you should consider that there is a consensus among those understanding Audyssey and bass management that LFE+Main is a bad idea.
Are you saying that Denon is wrong?
Base on my understanding, Denon definition of LFE+Main is that subwoofer is playing LFE signal plus all the bass signals from the main speakers. Other AVR manufacturer could define that just the opposite way.

 

The Denon manual section you quoted doesn’t make sense so it could mean anything. It is patently not true to say that you need to select LFE+Main if you want the bass signals to be reproduced by the subwoofer. That is true for any meaning of 'bass signals'. If you set the main speakers to small, then the bass content below the chosen crossover is sent to the sub, and LFE is always sent to the sub. You don't need to engage double bass for that.

 

I suggest you read batpig's very thorough explanation a few posts back and the FAQ answer I linked earlier. Both of those are correct and explain it in normal English and not Jinglish.

post #59859 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Well you may have your own opinion on it but it is hardly the 'correct' thing to do, for the reasons given. Audyssey's advice is to never use it, the general consensus of every respected poster who has commented on it is to never use it. The person who knows as much, or more, about Denon than pretty much anyone, is baptig, and you can read his advice on it a few posts back.  If you prefer the sound, muddied bass, overblown bass, likely phase cancellation and all, that is your prerogative. But your preference doesn't make something 'correct'.
Perhaps Denon (Japs) and Audyssey (US) don't speak the same language?

I'm not sure of the older generation of AVR, like the legendary 4311 and all previous models. Perhaps Denon has renamed it (the meaning of LFE+Main) since XX12 series?
post #59860 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Well you may have your own opinion on it but it is hardly the 'correct' thing to do, for the reasons given. Audyssey's advice is to never use it, the general consensus of every respected poster who has commented on it is to never use it. The person who knows as much, or more, about Denon than pretty much anyone, is baptig, and you can read his advice on it a few posts back.  If you prefer the sound, muddied bass, overblown bass, likely phase cancellation and all, that is your prerogative. But your preference doesn't make something 'correct'.
Perhaps Denon (Japs) and Audyssey (US) don't speak the same language?

I'm not sure of the older generation of AVR, like the legendary 4311 and all previous models. Perhaps Denon has renamed it (the meaning of LFE+Main) since XX12 series?

 

Whatever they mean, it isn’t the best practice to use LFE+Main in a properly bass-managed system.

post #59861 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Are you saying that Denon is wrong?
Base on my understanding, Denon definition of LFE+Main is that subwoofer is playing LFE signal plus all the bass signals from the main speakers. Other AVR manufacturer could define that just the opposite way.

Denon's definition: Subwoofer producing bass for LFE track + Mains speakers audio track
Other manufacturers definition: Subwoofer+Main speakers are producing bass together (double bass)

to me, "LFE+Main : The low range signal of all channels is added to the LFE signal output from the subwoofer." means what folks around here have long thought it means, as described above. Even though it's poorly worded. I'd agree that the "always play bass" is a bad translation simply because if you use normal bass management with the same crossover, the difference between LFE+main and "normal", for the subwoofer, is zero. Either way the sub gets the 0.1 channel and the redirected bass. It plays no more bass if the mains are also allowed to play what otherwise would be solely redirected to the sub.
post #59862 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post


Even though it's poorly worded. I'd agree that the "always play bass" is a bad translation simply because if you use normal bass management with the same crossover, the difference between LFE+main and "normal", for the subwoofer, is zero. Either way the sub gets the 0.1 channel and the redirected bass. It plays no more bass if the mains are also allowed to play what otherwise would be solely redirected to the sub.

 

JHAz is correct.  As long as all speakers are set to small, the two bass settings produce the same results with respect to the low frequencies.  This argument pops up every now and then until everyone realizes the settings make no difference unless speakers are set to "large".

post #59863 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Are you saying that Denon is wrong?

No, they are not "wrong", you are just misinterpreting what they wrote.

It does NOT say that "LFE+Main is the CORRECT setting." It simply describes what will happen.

Quote:
I'm not sure of the older generation of AVR, like the legendary 4311 and all previous models. Perhaps Denon has renamed it (the meaning of LFE+Main) since XX12 series?

No, absolutely nothing has changed about this setting at all. Every Denon receiver (including older models like 3803 etc) work the same way.

All LFE+Main does is allow redirected bass to the subwoofer for speakers set to LARGE. Period. As others have noted, when the speakers are set to SMALL then the setting is redundant.

The point of this setting, and of the line in the manual that says "Select LFE+Main if you want the bass signals to always be produced from the subwoofer" is for people who leave their mains set to LARGE, and/or like to listen to music in DIRECT mode where there is no bass management. Activating the LFE+MAIN setting absolutely WILL ensure that the subwoofer is always making noise, exactly as the manual describes.

It's basically there for people who play stereo music and wonder why the subwoofer is not making any noise.
post #59864 of 70892
Batpig is wiser than I. Once again I bow to his prowess
post #59865 of 70892
So I have been very happy with my Denon and probably mostly so due to having Audyssey MultiEQ. I'm only running a 5.1 setup with a lower end set of klipsch speakers and feel everything works great. I know it aint broke, but...

I keep wondering if I can get a pretty good deal on a receiver that's got MultiEQ XT, would I notice the difference?
post #59866 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

So I have been very happy with my Denon and probably mostly so due to having Audyssey MultiEQ. I'm only running a 5.1 setup with a lower end set of klipsch speakers and feel everything works great. I know it aint broke, but...

I keep wondering if I can get a pretty good deal on a receiver that's got MultiEQ XT, would I notice the difference?

I have a Denon with just Multeq and I ask myself the same question if XT will be better. As far as avr some older models of the Onkyo 709 or 809 is fairly cheap with XT.
post #59867 of 70892
I am going to run Audyssey because I got the new 12012 sub. Ken Kreisel told me to just do the Audyssey with one mic position at main listening position instead of the 6 positions and see what I think. I asked him why and he mentioned it is complicated to explain. Does anyone know why he suggested this?
post #59868 of 70892
Running a full 8-point calibration takes a while. A 1-point calibration is adequate for listening only at the primary listening position (where you put the microphone). You need a multi-point calibration in order to get the best sound averaged out over a larger area.

Also, the first time you run the calibration, you'll probably have the subwoofer's local volume control knob turned up too high, and the subwoofer level in the receiver will peg at -12dB. You need to run multiple calibrations, turning down the sub's volume knob until the subwoofer's level setting in the receiver gets closer to 0dB, so just calibrating it at 1 position helps you find the right volume level more quickly.
post #59869 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

So I have been very happy with my Denon and probably mostly so due to having Audyssey MultiEQ. I'm only running a 5.1 setup with a lower end set of klipsch speakers and feel everything works great. I know it aint broke, but...

I keep wondering if I can get a pretty good deal on a receiver that's got MultiEQ XT, would I notice the difference?

I'd suggest that, if you can, you move right up to XT32. There is a substantial difference between XT and XT32 - see the FAQ for more details.  Currently the cheapest way into XT32 is the Onkyo 818 - it has been priced as low as $770 on special offer.

 

h)2.   What is the difference between the various versions of MultEQ?

post #59870 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I am going to run Audyssey because I got the new 12012 sub. Ken Kreisel told me to just do the Audyssey with one mic position at main listening position instead of the 6 positions and see what I think. I asked him why and he mentioned it is complicated to explain. Does anyone know why he suggested this?

Selden has given you a good, specific answer. For more background info, see here:

 

d)2.   Do I really need to use all the available Audyssey mic positions?

post #59871 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

No, they are not "wrong", you are just misinterpreting what they wrote.

It does NOT say that "LFE+Main is the CORRECT setting." It simply describes what will happen.
No, absolutely nothing has changed about this setting at all. Every Denon receiver (including older models like 3803 etc) work the same way.

All LFE+Main does is allow redirected bass to the subwoofer for speakers set to LARGE. Period. As others have noted, when the speakers are set to SMALL then the setting is redundant.

The point of this setting, and of the line in the manual that says "Select LFE+Main if you want the bass signals to always be produced from the subwoofer" is for people who leave their mains set to LARGE, and/or like to listen to music in DIRECT mode where there is no bass management. Activating the LFE+MAIN setting absolutely WILL ensure that the subwoofer is always making noise, exactly as the manual describes.

It's basically there for people who play stereo music and wonder why the subwoofer is not making any noise.
If one has set LARGE for the speakers and LFE+Main as bass setting, how could the bass be reproduced by the subwoofer when playing stereo in Direct mode? When LARGE is selected, there is no crossover control. What will the subwoofer play?

EDIT: ok. Large with LFE+Main will produce double bass. Small with LFE+Main will redirect the crossover bass to subwoofer.
Edited by Skylinestar - 2/14/13 at 4:16pm
post #59872 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'd suggest that, if you can, you move right up to XT32. There is a substantial difference between XT and XT32 - see the FAQ for more details.  Currently the cheapest way into XT32 is the Onkyo 818 - it has been priced as low as $770 on special offer.

h)2.   What is the difference between the various versions of MultEQ?

Thank you for your response kbarnes701. I've been reading a lot of your links, appreciate those as well!
post #59873 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

No, they are not "wrong", you are just misinterpreting what they wrote.

It does NOT say that "LFE+Main is the CORRECT setting." It simply describes what will happen.
No, absolutely nothing has changed about this setting at all. Every Denon receiver (including older models like 3803 etc) work the same way.

All LFE+Main does is allow redirected bass to the subwoofer for speakers set to LARGE. Period. As others have noted, when the speakers are set to SMALL then the setting is redundant.

The point of this setting, and of the line in the manual that says "Select LFE+Main if you want the bass signals to always be produced from the subwoofer" is for people who leave their mains set to LARGE, and/or like to listen to music in DIRECT mode where there is no bass management. Activating the LFE+MAIN setting absolutely WILL ensure that the subwoofer is always making noise, exactly as the manual describes.

It's basically there for people who play stereo music and wonder why the subwoofer is not making any noise.
If one has set LARGE for the speakers and LFE+Main as bass setting, how could the bass be reproduced by the subwoofer when playing stereo in Direct mode? When LARGE is selected, there is no crossover control. What will the subwoofer play?

The crossover frequencies are still configured, though, and the frequencies below them can be copied to the subwoofer channel without disturbing the source channels. With the speakers set to "Large", or when "Direct" is selected, those low frequencies are not removed from the channels driving the speakers. When bass management is enabled (i.e. when "Small" is selected and "Direct" is not) then the low frequencies are removed from those speaker channels.
post #59874 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

The crossover frequencies are still configured, though, and the frequencies below them can be copied to the subwoofer channel without disturbing the source channels. With the speakers set to "Large", or when "Direct" is selected, those low frequencies are not removed from the channels driving the speakers. When bass management is enabled (i.e. when "Small" is selected and "Direct" is not) then the low frequencies are removed from those speaker channels.
Thanks. Large with LFE+Main will produce double bass. Small with LFE+Main will redirect the crossover bass to subwoofer.
post #59875 of 70892
Almost. When a speaker is set to small, LFE+MAIN is irrelevant.
post #59876 of 70892
After running Pro and seeing the crosover list per channel; 60 hz was first for most channels and a rear surround had a 90 hz first, then 3rd down the listing was a 60 hz crossover. Question: so when you have a list of crossovers and not always in order from bottom to top, is Pro ranking the best crossover for that channel first and the not so best last? Now if the best crossover is listed first, then it would be best to leave the crossovers alone? In my case, 60 hz came up first in 6 channels and 90 in one rear surround channel. I did finally select 80 hz for all channels but 80 hz did come up anywhere from 2nd to last in some channel listings.
post #59877 of 70892
^Good question for the Pro kit thread. The crossovers are ranked in Pro in order of best match for that speaker to the sub. What has not been established for those of us who've taken the second or third choice is whether it actually makes any audible difference. So far the consensus seems to be that any listed choice is a pretty good choice. Per those who've tried it, post calibration tweaks of distance seem to matter more for smoothing the splice.
Edited by SoundofMind - 2/15/13 at 3:51am
post #59878 of 70892
Hi, not compleet new to Audyssey i do have a question.
Normal i listen to music and TV without the use of the subwoofer. for movies i want the sub.
Music and TV will be 90% of the time, movies is just 2-3 times a week.
So, how must i do the Audyssey setup, with or without the sub ?

If i do a setup with the sub will the music and TV still sound good when i turn off the sub ?
post #59879 of 70892
^Hi, we welcome you from Holland. smile.gif
Do Autosetup with the sub.

As to listening without the sub playing, there are several ways to accomplish this. It would be helpful to know why you do it and what is your processor.
post #59880 of 70892
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Hi, we welcome you from Holland. smile.gif
Do Autosetup with the sub.

As to listening without the sub playing, there are several ways to accomplish this. It would be helpful to know why you do it and what is your processor.

Why i do listen to music and tv without the sub is that i do not like the lows that some tv channels put out, thats more then enough for me without a subwoofer.
Same for music, more then enough for my taste.......

I do not know what you mean by my processor ?
If you mean the receiver, its a Marantz 1603.

Thx
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)