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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1997

post #59881 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'd suggest that, if you can, you move right up to XT32. There is a substantial difference between XT and XT32 - see the FAQ for more details.  Currently the cheapest way into XT32 is the Onkyo 818 - it has been priced as low as $770 on special offer.

h)2.   What is the difference between the various versions of MultEQ?

I'd suggest that, if you can, you move right up to XT32. There is a substantial difference between XT and XT32

There is substantial difference in resolution between XT and XT32 but this FAQ entry is a total lie for XT32 (at least on Onkyo 818) unfortunately:
Quote:
c)2. Why do I often see advice to raise the Crossovers to 80Hz?

Audyssey has simply 'listened' during the measuring phase and reported the -3dB point of the frequency response to your AVR. What this means is this: when Audyssey sends the test chirps it will measure the frequency response of your speaker and find where it starts to roll off (i.e. become 'less loud'). When Audyssey detects the point at which the frequency response is down by 3dB ('the -3dB point') it stops trying to correct for the in-room response. So if, for example, your speaker is -3dB down at 50Hz, Audyssey will detect that and will only apply the EQ down to 50Hz. Audyssey will not correct below 50Hz for fear of boosting the lower frequencies beyond the capabilities of your speaker and damaging it.

In the following example it will correct bellow 50Hz, moreover it will boost there for the whole +10dB and do it during almost 2 octaves bellow the -3dB point. mad.gif Seems this is quite common, as it is confirmed by other people measurements.

And... should we do something with this FAQ entry? It is not telling the sad truth anymore!
post #59882 of 70896
^CBDicX
First off, if DynamicEQ is on, for both music and TV, use RLO and that will decrease the bass (or turn DEQ off).
See the section in the Audyssey FAQhere.

Sorry I am not that familiar with Marantz processors but you can turn sub off OM p105.

I believe there are several other workarounds for reducing the bass, perhaps others can comment....
post #59883 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

There is substantial difference in resolution between XT and XT32 but this FAQ entry is a total lie for XT32 (at least on Onkyo 818) unfortunately:
In the following example it will correct bellow 50Hz, moreover it will boost there for the whole +10dB and do it during almost 2 octaves bellow the -3dB point. mad.gif Seems this is quite common, as it is confirmed by other people measurements.

And... should we do something with this FAQ entry? It is not telling the sad truth anymore!

What "sad truth"? Are you referring to how the 818 handles subs for XT32 (I have the 818)? It is addressed in the FAQ

f)8. How does Audyssey handle complex multiple subwoofer setups?
post #59884 of 70896
I think English is not his first language. He needs to brush up on the definition of the word "lie" rolleyes.gif
post #59885 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think English is not his first language. He needs to brush up on the definition of the word "lie" rolleyes.gif

 

I seem to recall discussions some time back regarding a bug in Audyssey that resulted in a low frequency boost below the F3 point.  I don't recall the specifics at this time, nor which AVR's had this bug, but I was under the impression that this had been fixed by a firmware update.  Anyone else have a recollection, or am I just getting senile?

post #59886 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

There is substantial difference in resolution between XT and XT32 but this FAQ entry is a total lie for XT32 (at least on Onkyo 818) unfortunately:
In the following example it will correct bellow 50Hz, moreover it will boost there for the whole +10dB and do it during almost 2 octaves bellow the -3dB point. mad.gif Seems this is quite common, as it is confirmed by other people measurements.

And... should we do something with this FAQ entry? It is not telling the sad truth anymore!

Maybe I missed it but I don't remember seeing a lot of evidence that Audyssey does not roll off corrections for the main speakers below some point near the crossover frequency the receiver selects. It's well known that in the subwoofer in particular make-up gain can increase levels below the correction point as Audyssey gets the overall sub volume back up to where it would appear without correction for peaks. Some have reported difficulty from this, but I'd hope nobody has a sub that rolls off at 50 Hz.

The 10 dB boost is applied to the LFE channel, not by Audyssey but by the receiver because that's necessary to get the channel level to where it's supposed to be. It aplies only to the LFE (.1 channel) material, not the redirected bass, and whatever it does it's not because of Audyssey but because the multichannel formats call for a 10 dB boost to the LFE. SO the boost wiould be present on any properly operating receiver, Audyssey or no. In other words, when the multichannel mix is encoded onto disc, whiether it's Dolby, DTS or PCM, the LFE channels is turned down 10 dB from where it was. Then it's turned back up 10 dB on playback to get it to the correct level. Because the LFE channel has a max potential SPL of 115, not 105 dB like the other channels.
post #59887 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wryker View Post

What "sad truth"? Are you referring to how the 818 handles subs for XT32 (I have the 818)? It is addressed in the FAQ

f)8. How does Audyssey handle complex multiple subwoofer setups?

Nothing to do with subwoofer. BTW it handles subwoofer channel very well. I am telling about all other channels, fronts, center, surrounds, etc.
post #59888 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think English is not his first language. He needs to brush up on the definition of the word "lie" rolleyes.gif
Yes, English is not my first language. But.. Telling the opposite to the truth - isn't it a lie? Then I definitely have some problem with English smile.gif
post #59889 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Nothing to do with subwoofer. BTW it handles subwoofer channel very well. I am telling about all other channels, fronts, center, surrounds, etc.

What's the issue w/the other channels? I haven't experienced any.
post #59890 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Yes, English is not my first language. But.. Telling the opposite to the truth - isn't it a lie? Then I definitely have some problem with English smile.gif

every wrong statement is not a lie. A lie is a false statement made with an intent to deceive. But lots of people say utterly incorrect things here because they believe them. Thus, not a lie.
post #59891 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I seem to recall discussions some time back regarding a bug in Audyssey that resulted in a low frequency boost below the F3 point.  I don't recall the specifics at this time, nor which AVR's had this bug, but I was under the impression that this had been fixed by a firmware update.  Anyone else have a recollection, or am I just getting senile?

Yes, It is the bug. The one that was fixed long time ago was about subwoofers, and was caused by level matching. The one I am telling about is for other channels, and it is not from the level matching. This one is not fixed. It seems that I am the only one who cares and reported it to Onkyo/Audyssey. Unfortunately no much progress on the issue from them frown.gif
post #59892 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

every wrong statement is not a lie. A lie is a false statement made with an intent to deceive. But lots of people say utterly incorrect things here because they believe them. Thus, not a lie.

But once we know the truth telling the incorrect thing is a lie. It wasn't lie before, but now, once it is not true, and FAQ continues telling this - it is a lie. We either should accept this and tell the truth, or decide it is a bug and push Onkyo/Audyssey to fix it. I really don't know if it happens on non-Onkyo receivers with XT32, but it is very sad fact it happens with Onkyo 818.

I sent here graphs before, this is one more time:


Center channel alone set to full-range to isolate Audyssey, all Dynamic EQ/Volume etc are off, pre-out measurement with and without Audyssey. Detected F3 @ 50Hz, as in the FAQ example.
post #59893 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post


Yes, It is the bug. The one that was fixed long time ago was about subwoofers, and was caused by level matching. The one I am telling about is for other channels, and it is not from the level matching. This one is not fixed. It seems that I am the only one who cares and reported it to Onkyo/Audyssey. Unfortunately no much progress on the issue from them frown.gif

 

I am still not understanding what this bug is.  Can you describe it in more detail?  I am unaware that any bug exists in how Audyssey is handling my system.  I would think that if a bug existed, it would have received attention in this thread, which is full of OCD participants, especially when it pertains to Audyssey.

post #59894 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wryker View Post

What's the issue w/the other channels? I haven't experienced any.

If you haven't measured, then you probably don't know. Also it can happen that your acoustic conditions doesn't trigger this bug. Also if all your speakers are detected to something like 30Hz F3 and you set crossovers @ 80Hz, then probably it doesn't matter much as this boost is cut with the crossovers.
post #59895 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I am still not understanding what this bug is.  Can you describe it in more detail?  I am unaware that any bug exists in how Audyssey is handling my system.  I would think that if a bug existed, it would have received attention in this thread, which is full of OCD participants, especially when it pertains to Audyssey.

I have seen your measurements and there is nothing suspicious there, so, either it happens with only some XT32 implementation (Onkyo 818 at least), or it depends on some acoustic conditions, or both. But I have sent the graph clearly showing the problem I am describing and I've seen similar graph from another owner of Onkyo 818.
post #59896 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think English is not his first language. He needs to brush up on the definition of the word "lie" rolleyes.gif
Yes, English is not my first language. But.. Telling the opposite to the truth - isn't it a lie? Then I definitely have some problem with English smile.gif

You have yet to explain clearly what the truth is (according to you). Nor have you pointed out specifically what part in that FAQ statement is actually wrong, let alone a "lie".

You're still a very long way away from demonstrating that a lie has been told. Even if you could demonstrate that something in the FAQ is wrong that still wouldn't necessarily imply a lie.
post #59897 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

But once we know the truth telling the incorrect thing is a lie. It wasn't lie before, but now, once it is not true, and FAQ continues telling this - it is a lie. We either should accept this and tell the truth, or decide it is a bug and push Onkyo/Audyssey to fix it. I really don't know if it happens on non-Onkyo receivers with XT32, but it is very sad fact it happens with Onkyo 818.

I sent here graphs before, this is one more time:


Center channel alone set to full-range to isolate Audyssey, all Dynamic EQ/Volume etc are off, pre-out measurement with and without Audyssey. Detected F3 @ 50Hz, as in the FAQ example.

not every uncorrected untruth is a lie. Many many people here continue to spew the same falsehoods fter they've been told multiple times they are wrong and why they are wrong. Not lying, just clinging to their misinformation.

Sorry, but there is no reason in teh\\he entire world for you to try to paint some dude you don't know who spent dozens of hours carefully compiling a complex document a liar, no matter how doggone wrong you think he is. IMO, it's just inappropriate. And until he thinks it's wrong, it's not a lie even if you are utterly convinced it's wrong. It's an intent thing. As near as I can tell you are not inside the head of any other participant here, so you cannot know their intent. Casting aspersions seems a way to make sure your points, if valid, go unheeded.
post #59898 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

not every uncorrected untruth is a lie. Many many people here continue to spew the same falsehoods fter they've been told multiple times they are wrong and why they are wrong. Not lying, just clinging to their misinformation.

Sorry, but there is no reason in teh\\he entire world for you to try to paint some dude you don't know who spent dozens of hours carefully compiling a complex document a liar, no matter how doggone wrong you think he is. IMO, it's just inappropriate. And until he thinks it's wrong, it's not a lie even if you are utterly convinced it's wrong. It's an intent thing. As near as I can tell you are not inside the head of any other participant here, so you cannot know their intent. Casting aspersions seems a way to make sure your points, if valid, go unheeded.

I don't call anyone here a liar. Sorry, if you think I offended someone. I am just pointing to exactly one statement that is not truth anymore. Because of a bug, or something else, it gives a clue to some people, and those people will be really disappointed when they will see what is told is not true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig 
You have yet to explain clearly what the truth is (according to you). Nor have you pointed out specifically what part in that FAQ statement is actually wrong, let alone a "lie".

I pointed exactly! Repeating!
Quote:
When Audyssey detects the point at which the frequency response is down by 3dB ('the -3dB point') it stops trying to correct for the in-room response. So if, for example, your speaker is -3dB down at 50Hz, Audyssey will detect that and will only apply the EQ down to 50Hz. Audyssey will not correct below 50Hz for fear of boosting the lower frequencies beyond the capabilities of your speaker and damaging it.

And my measurements that clearly showing it is boosting frequencies lower than 50Hz by +10dB! And does this one and a half octave below 50Hz. This is the objective truth confirmed by measuring.

How can it be more specific?

Lets stop discussing what the word lie means, but better discuss a real problem. It seems in any Audyssey and Onkyo related thread as soon as the real bug/problem is presented everyone tries to change topic.
post #59899 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'd suggest that, if you can, you move right up to XT32. There is a substantial difference between XT and XT32 - see the FAQ for more details.  Currently the cheapest way into XT32 is the Onkyo 818 - it has been priced as low as $770 on special offer.

h)2.   What is the difference between the various versions of MultEQ?

Thank you for your response kbarnes701. I've been reading a lot of your links, appreciate those as well!

 

My pleasure. You mean the links in the 'Easter Egg'?  Shhhhhhhhh.... ;)

post #59900 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Good question for the Pro kit thread. The crossovers are ranked in Pro in order of best match for that speaker to the sub. What has not been established for those of us who've taken the second or third choice is whether it actually makes any audible difference. So far the consensus seems to be that any listed choice is a pretty good choice. Per those who've tried it, post calibration tweaks of distance seem to matter more for smoothing the splice.

Yes, agreed. One has to remember it's a computer. For example, my satnav will sometimes give me three choices for a route (it is set up for the fastest route), ranked in order of shortest journey time. But when you look closely, the difference in arrival time between the first and third choice may be only a minute, on a 2 hour journey. I has computed and ranked, but it makes no real difference which you choose. Might be similar with Pro - it calculates the filters after you have chosen your crossover - maybe it can calculate the filters for the 1st choice just 0.1% better than for the third choice. It will still rank them but it makes no real difference. I am only speculating of course, but having tried the first choice XOs and then, say, the 4th choice, to my ears 4th choice was better as it let my Submersives handle more.  

post #59901 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'd suggest that, if you can, you move right up to XT32. There is a substantial difference between XT and XT32 - see the FAQ for more details.  Currently the cheapest way into XT32 is the Onkyo 818 - it has been priced as low as $770 on special offer.

h)2.   What is the difference between the various versions of MultEQ?

I'd suggest that, if you can, you move right up to XT32. There is a substantial difference between XT and XT32

There is substantial difference in resolution between XT and XT32 but this FAQ entry is a total lie for XT32 (at least on Onkyo 818) unfortunately:
Quote:
c)2. Why do I often see advice to raise the Crossovers to 80Hz?

Audyssey has simply 'listened' during the measuring phase and reported the -3dB point of the frequency response to your AVR. What this means is this: when Audyssey sends the test chirps it will measure the frequency response of your speaker and find where it starts to roll off (i.e. become 'less loud'). When Audyssey detects the point at which the frequency response is down by 3dB ('the -3dB point') it stops trying to correct for the in-room response. So if, for example, your speaker is -3dB down at 50Hz, Audyssey will detect that and will only apply the EQ down to 50Hz. Audyssey will not correct below 50Hz for fear of boosting the lower frequencies beyond the capabilities of your speaker and damaging it.

In the following example it will correct bellow 50Hz, moreover it will boost there for the whole +10dB and do it during almost 2 octaves bellow the -3dB point. mad.gif Seems this is quite common, as it is confirmed by other people measurements.

And... should we do something with this FAQ entry? It is not telling the sad truth anymore!

 

The FAQ reflects Audyssey's own view of how it works and it does seem to work that way for the majority of users. I can't really change the FAQ to reflect anecdotal evidence from a small number of people whose credentials are unknown to me.

 

What I can do is add a footnote to that section saying that some people have found this or that. If you would suggest some wording, I will certainly consider that as I know you are not the only one saying what you are saying.

post #59902 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

If you haven't measured, then you probably don't know. Also it can happen that your acoustic conditions doesn't trigger this bug. Also if all your speakers are detected to something like 30Hz F3 and you set crossovers @ 80Hz, then probably it doesn't matter much as this boost is cut with the crossovers.
When you say "measure" are you referring to using an SPL meter? I'm in the process of changing out my rear-surrounds and after that I'll be running Audyssey again. I do have an SPL meter.
post #59903 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think English is not his first language. He needs to brush up on the definition of the word "lie" rolleyes.gif

 

I seem to recall discussions some time back regarding a bug in Audyssey that resulted in a low frequency boost below the F3 point.  I don't recall the specifics at this time, nor which AVR's had this bug, but I was under the impression that this had been fixed by a firmware update.  Anyone else have a recollection, or am I just getting senile?

 

My recollection is similar to yours but may be incorrect - at the time I didn’t pay all that much attention to the issue as it seemed only to affect a very small number of people and there may have been other, unknown (to me) factors at work. I think it is certainly true that not many people are finding Audyssey boosting below the F3. If it is a 818-specific issue and has not been fixed in FW, I can add a footnote to that effect.

post #59904 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think English is not his first language. He needs to brush up on the definition of the word "lie" rolleyes.gif

 

Is Igor Eastern European?  I have found that they can have literal interpretations of words that do not translate very well - for example if something is 'untrue' then it must also be a 'lie'. This is not the case of course as it could be a mistake. In English a 'lie' is a deliberate telling of something that is untrue.  I can guarantee 100% that I have not lied in the FAQ :) 

 

Either way, I have nothing but admiration for the overseas users here who have such a great command of English (I am a languages graduate) so I am prepared to cut him some slack. I think he really meant to say 'mistake'...

post #59905 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

There is substantial difference in resolution between XT and XT32 but this FAQ entry is a total lie for XT32 (at least on Onkyo 818) unfortunately:
In the following example it will correct bellow 50Hz, moreover it will boost there for the whole +10dB and do it during almost 2 octaves bellow the -3dB point. mad.gif Seems this is quite common, as it is confirmed by other people measurements.

And... should we do something with this FAQ entry? It is not telling the sad truth anymore!

Maybe I missed it but I don't remember seeing a lot of evidence that Audyssey does not roll off corrections for the main speakers below some point near the crossover frequency the receiver selects. It's well known that in the subwoofer in particular make-up gain can increase levels below the correction point as Audyssey gets the overall sub volume back up to where it would appear without correction for peaks. Some have reported difficulty from this, but I'd hope nobody has a sub that rolls off at 50 Hz.

The 10 dB boost is applied to the LFE channel, not by Audyssey but by the receiver because that's necessary to get the channel level to where it's supposed to be. It aplies only to the LFE (.1 channel) material, not the redirected bass, and whatever it does it's not because of Audyssey but because the multichannel formats call for a 10 dB boost to the LFE. SO the boost wiould be present on any properly operating receiver, Audyssey or no. In other words, when the multichannel mix is encoded onto disc, whiether it's Dolby, DTS or PCM, the LFE channels is turned down 10 dB from where it was. Then it's turned back up 10 dB on playback to get it to the correct level. Because the LFE channel has a max potential SPL of 115, not 105 dB like the other channels.

 

Thanks for that clear explanation of the issues. It is precisely because it is controversial that I have left the FAQ the way it is. Discussions of the sort in your post are way too advanced for the average guy using the FAQ and I think it would confuse more than illuminate. If we are convinced the FAQ wording is correct for the vast majority, I will leave it as it is I think. 

post #59906 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I think English is not his first language. He needs to brush up on the definition of the word "lie" rolleyes.gif
Yes, English is not my first language. But.. Telling the opposite to the truth - isn't it a lie? Then I definitely have some problem with English smile.gif

 

:)  What is your first language Igor? In English a lie is the deliberate telling of the opposite of the truth. In the case we are discussing, it would perhaps be an 'error' or a 'mistake'.

 

No offence taken BTW - I know how difficult it can be to have in-depth technical discussions in a foreign language.

post #59907 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I seem to recall discussions some time back regarding a bug in Audyssey that resulted in a low frequency boost below the F3 point.  I don't recall the specifics at this time, nor which AVR's had this bug, but I was under the impression that this had been fixed by a firmware update.  Anyone else have a recollection, or am I just getting senile?

Yes, It is the bug. The one that was fixed long time ago was about subwoofers, and was caused by level matching. The one I am telling about is for other channels, and it is not from the level matching. This one is not fixed. It seems that I am the only one who cares and reported it to Onkyo/Audyssey. Unfortunately no much progress on the issue from them frown.gif


You may be the only one who cares about it, but do others acknowledge that it exists? Do Onkyo or Audyssey say it exists?

post #59908 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wryker View Post


When you say "measure" are you referring to using an SPL meter? I'm in the process of changing out my rear-surrounds and after that I'll be running Audyssey again. I do have an SPL meter.

 

If you re-read Igor's posting, the measurement is taken from the pre-outs.  By toggling Audyssey off and on, you can see exactly what is happening without the influence of the listening room.  For example, here is a pre-out measurement of my left speaker, one without Audyssey and one with XT32 applied.

 

 

In this example, you see Audyssey correction down all the way to 20Hz because Audyssey sets my speakers to "Large", i.e. the F3 point is probably below 30Hz.  (Actually 30Hz, +/- 3dB on axis, according to the manufacturer)

post #59909 of 70896
Fwiw I remember vaguely that there may have been a bug in some recent onkyos that messed up low frequency correction. There was slso a crazy one msybe four years ago in which denon's software caused incorrect reporting of the test results and caused a very significant low frequency error. Maybe we could add a grnersl reference that if one's receiver seems to behave contrary to the expected there is a possibility of software problems.
post #59910 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wryker View Post


When you say "measure" are you referring to using an SPL meter? I'm in the process of changing out my rear-surrounds and after that I'll be running Audyssey again. I do have an SPL meter.

 

If you re-read Igor's posting, the measurement is taken from the pre-outs.  By toggling Audyssey off and on, you can see exactly what is happening without the influence of the listening room.  For example, here is a pre-out measurement of my left speaker, one without Audyssey and one with XT32 applied.

 

 

In this example, you see Audyssey correction down all the way to 20Hz because Audyssey sets my speakers to "Large", i.e. the F3 point is probably below 30Hz.  (Actually 30Hz, +/- 3dB on axis, according to the manufacturer)

Jerry, how exactly do you take a pre-out measurement?  I'm curious to figure out why Audyssey XT32 is setting the crossovers of my surrounds to 40Hz?  I suppose it could be room effects but I guess I would've expected the opposite (i.e. a higher crossover setting)?

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