or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 1999

post #59941 of 70890

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojodave View Post

Quote:
As for the sib trim showing up between ±3 dB, that's one of those internet myths that is going around. That level adjustment is just a relative number that makes sure your sub is playing at the same level as the other speakers. It will depend on where you set the analog volume control on the back of your sub.

This quote is from Audyssey Zendesk . I about fell off my couch when I saw this quote. He also says that your sub volume should be turned up to 50% and should only be turned down if you get a -12 level on your sub. He suggest keeping your volume on your sub the same, even if you get a -11db level on the sub. So, is the +/-3db subwoofer level a myth?

 

Just a bit of friendly advice.  When you reference something like you did in your post, it is a common courtesy to include somthing in the post that points the reader to the area in the quote you are referring to.  The Zendesk thread is very long, and you force readers to search for the response you are concerned with.  For example, you could have said, look for Chris' response dated July 1, 2011. 

 

IIUC, this is the response that concerns you:

 

 

"July 1, 2011

The setting of the sub volume knob doesn't matter as long as MultEQ doesn't come up with a trim setting of –12 dB for the AVR. If that happens then you are at the limit of the AVR adjustment and you don't know if more level cut is needed to bring the sub level to the required reference setting. Any other trim level setting is fine. Once you set the volume control on the sub it's best not to touch it. If you want to make personal preference level adjustments to the sub level then you can make these in the AVR menu."

 

This has been extensively discussed in this thread already.

post #59942 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Just a bit of friendly advice.  When you reference something like you did in your post, it is a common courtesy to include somthing in the post that points the reader to the area in the quote you are referring to.  The Zendesk thread is very long, and you force readers to search for the response you are concerned with.  For example, you could have said, look for Chris' response dated July 1, 2011. 

IIUC, this is the response that concerns you:


"July 1, 2011
The setting of the sub volume knob doesn't matter as long as MultEQ doesn't come up with a trim setting of –12 dB for the AVR. If that happens then you are at the limit of the AVR adjustment and you don't know if more level cut is needed to bring the sub level to the required reference setting. Any other trim level setting is fine. Once you set the volume control on the sub it's best not to touch it. If you want to make personal preference level adjustments to the sub level then you can make these in the AVR menu."

This has been extensively discussed in this thread already.

This is a post I made a month ago and I believe, could be what he is referring to;

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/59160#post_22851172
post #59943 of 70890
Thanks everyone for answering my questions and being patient with my repeated Audyssey questions. When I get home, I am going to do two experiments.

1. I have two subs, Klipsch RW-12d and a Klipsch Sub10, I'm going to only connect the RW-12D, turn the volume on the sub to -10 (50% volume) and see what DB I get with the test tone and what trim level I get on my AVR with Audyssey.

2. After I get my RW-12d dialed in, I'm going to test if my system sounds better with one sub or two

I wonder how many on here have improved their bass going to one sub instead of two?
post #59944 of 70890
Previously I had mentioned that Ken Kreisel told me to just measure once but at the main listening position but I was wrong. He had asked me to take all 6 measurements but only at the main listening position. I know Audyssey says otherwise but he claims its better 1 position for all 6 measurements. Any take on this?
post #59945 of 70890
Well, if you're the only one listening, and you'll always be seated there, that does make sense smile.gif

A problem that occurred to me recently was that if you have directional tweeters, and you place the microphone well off the center of their pattern, (as is likely to happen with the traditional microphone placement) Audyssey will be likely to crank up the level of the higher frequencies because it won't be able to hear them very well. i.e It'll naturally make the sound brighter. I don't recall people discussing this problem here at AVS. Did I overlook it? Has this been discussed on the Audyssey Web site?
post #59946 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Previously I had mentioned that Ken Kreisel told me to just measure once but at the main listening position but I was wrong. He had asked me to take all 6 measurements but only at the main listening position. I know Audyssey says otherwise but he claims its better 1 position for all 6 measurements. Any take on this?


Here is what Audyssey says -
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post


Quote:



Originally Posted by pocketcash View Post

YEP, I used to take all 8 tests in my one sweet spot, thinking it would make it more soild, but I only ended up with a hollow sounding center channel. The fix was to move the mic around the room, even if it wasn't a place that would be used much as a listening position.


Taking measurements in one spot guarantees bad sound. The algorithm needs to collect data from around the listening area in order to work correctly. One should not think of mic locations as being the same as seating locations. The recommended pattern for measurements is shown here (in the downloadable file). Whether you have one listener or many, all available measurements should be taken to provide the algorithm with the needed data.
post #59947 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wryker View Post


When you say "measure" are you referring to using an SPL meter? I'm in the process of changing out my rear-surrounds and after that I'll be running Audyssey again. I do have an SPL meter.

 

If you re-read Igor's posting, the measurement is taken from the pre-outs.  By toggling Audyssey off and on, you can see exactly what is happening without the influence of the listening room.  For example, here is a pre-out measurement of my left speaker, one without Audyssey and one with XT32 applied.

 

 

In this example, you see Audyssey correction down all the way to 20Hz because Audyssey sets my speakers to "Large", i.e. the F3 point is probably below 30Hz.  (Actually 30Hz, +/- 3dB on axis, according to the manufacturer)

Jerry, how exactly do you take a pre-out measurement?  I'm curious to figure out why Audyssey XT32 is setting the crossovers of my surrounds to 40Hz?  I suppose it could be room effects but I guess I would've expected the opposite (i.e. a higher crossover setting)?

 

For anyone else who might be interested, I have posted the procedure for how to take a REW Pre-out measurement here.

post #59948 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by sojodave View Post

Thanks everyone for answering my questions and being patient with my repeated Audyssey questions. When I get home, I am going to do two experiments.

1. I have two subs, Klipsch RW-12d and a Klipsch Sub10, I'm going to only connect the RW-12D, turn the volume on the sub to -10 (50% volume) and see what DB I get with the test tone and what trim level I get on my AVR with Audyssey.

2. After I get my RW-12d dialed in, I'm going to test if my system sounds better with one sub or two

I wonder how many on here have improved their bass going to one sub instead of two?

 

Not many ;)  Dual subs (preferably identical) have a lot of advantages over a single sub, but it is trickier to get two subs set up than it is one sub. Certainly one sub set up properly is going to beat two subs set up badly, but of course, with all the help on here, plus Audyssey XT32 if your unit has it, nobody should have to suffer badly set up subs.

 

What is the problem that you are trying to overcome?

post #59949 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Previously I had mentioned that Ken Kreisel told me to just measure once but at the main listening position but I was wrong. He had asked me to take all 6 measurements but only at the main listening position. I know Audyssey says otherwise but he claims its better 1 position for all 6 measurements. Any take on this?

 

Audyssey has been designed to work to improve the response in the room, not at a single seat.

 

d)2.   Do I really need to use all the available Audyssey mic positions?

 

d)3.   Where should I position the mic for best results?

 

But the best solution is to try the various mic position options yourself and come to your own conclusion. It is easy enough to run 6 or 8 measurements and then listen.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 2/18/13 at 1:51pm
post #59950 of 70890
I have 2 subs a Hsu vtf3 mk4 and Kreisel 12012. Since they are not Identical can I calibrate one with Audyssey and then the other one and just use the measurement of the superior sub for final calibration?
post #59951 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I have 2 subs a Hsu vtf3 mk4 and Kreisel 12012. Since they are not Identical can I calibrate one with Audyssey and then the other one and just use the measurement of the superior sub for final calibration?

 

That would not produce desirable results.  Audyssey generates filters that are applied to the sub channel.  Both subs must be present during the measurement process, or else the filters will be wrong.

post #59952 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I have 2 subs a Hsu vtf3 mk4 and Kreisel 12012. Since they are not Identical can I calibrate one with Audyssey and then the other one and just use the measurement of the superior sub for final calibration?

 

Jerry has given you the right information. For more background on setting up dual subs, see here:

 

f)2.    How do I connect and set up two subwoofers?

post #59953 of 70890
How about if all I want to do is test each sub separately. What is the best method for this? I have no equipment but I thought maybe I can disengage Ausyssey and play a disk at same volume level but the gain on each might be different.
post #59954 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

How about if all I want to do is test each sub separately. What is the best method for this? I have no equipment but I thought maybe I can disengage Ausyssey and play a disk at same volume level but the gain on each might be different.

 

Test for what?  You are extremely limited in what you can test without measuring equipment.

post #59955 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

How about if all I want to do is test each sub separately. What is the best method for this? I have no equipment but I thought maybe I can disengage Ausyssey and play a disk at same volume level but the gain on each might be different.

 

Why don't you make it easier for us by telling us what you are trying to accomplish.  Are you trying to decide whether to use one sub versus two subs, and if only one sub, then which one? 

 

If you expect guidance here, you need to spend a little more effort in describing your objectives.

post #59956 of 70890
Guys,

I have a new Onkyo 818 receiver that I am setting up with a 2.1 setup, consisting of stand mounted monitors (Fountek ribbon tweeters and Vifa XT 7" midwoofer) and a Rythmik LV12R sub. My room layout poses a couple of placement challenges, and I have positioned the furniture, TV and speakers to the best possible (most aesthetic) placement. See the schematic below, followed by the issue I am having.



Are the mic positions I have chosen good enough? I have found that prior to integrating the sub into the setup, the XT32 calibration using these positions yielded what I remember to be a more balanced sound than a previous Audyssey XT setup I did with a Denon 3313 and a Marantz SR5007 receiver before. Now with the Onkyo, after I've introduced the sub into the setup, I tried to recalibrate, and have found that Audyssey set up my front speakers to crossover at 40Hz, and my sub set at +0.5 to +1.5 dB gain. With this setting, I found the sub output to be very lacking, and so raised the crossover to 80Hz as recommended in Audyssey setup. Now I find that the sound is fatiguing (it never was fatiguing before) and that I am missing some midbass in the response.

Any thoughts on what's happening, or what to try next? I don't have REW or measurement gear.

EDIT:
Some follow up technical questions regarding the setup.
  • The setup guide says the mic should point to the ceiling during setup. Does this mean the relative orientation of the mic can be roughly pointed at the ceiling, and not necessarily have to be perpendicular to the ceiling at all times/positions? I ask this because, putting the mic on a tripod on a couch makes the mic to be oriented a couple of degrees either way from perfect perpendicular relative to the ceiling.
  • When moving between different measurement positions, does the mic need to have the same relative angle to the speakers, or does it not matter as the mic might be omnidirectional?

Edited by raaj - 2/18/13 at 5:28pm
post #59957 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by raaj View Post

Any thoughts on what's happening, or what to try next?
Try to put your sub to some other positions (and re-calibrate of course). I would suggest at the left and right of the TV. May be you have deep nulls with the current sub position at listening area.
Also you have too many measurement positions near to the back wall. It is required to place a mic at least 60cm from the wall (or any reflecting area). Also move 4 and 5 points deeper to the room, somewhere in between lines 1-2 and 6-7. And make 3 the first measurement point (it is in the middle, the distances are detected by that point only).
post #59958 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Why don't you make it easier for us by telling us what you are trying to accomplish.  Are you trying to decide whether to use one sub versus two subs, and if only one sub, then which one? 

If you expect guidance here, you need to spend a little more effort in describing your objectives.

I am going to be using only one one sub which is going to be the Kreisel 12012 but what I want to do is hear the difference between the Kreisel and Hsu by playing a movie or material with bass. What I want to know is how can do this. Do I move the gain on one sub and with an spl meter measure say to 75 and then do the same for the other sub and then play something with bass to hear the difference between them? Auditioning one at a time of course!
post #59959 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Why don't you make it easier for us by telling us what you are trying to accomplish.  Are you trying to decide whether to use one sub versus two subs, and if only one sub, then which one? 

If you expect guidance here, you need to spend a little more effort in describing your objectives.

I am going to be using only one one sub which is going to be the Kreisel 12012 but what I want to do is hear the difference between the Kreisel and Hsu by playing a movie or material with bass. What I want to know is how can do this. Do I move the gain on one sub and with an spl meter measure say to 75 and then do the same for the other sub and then play something with bass to hear the difference between them? Auditioning one at a time of course!

 

Hook up one sub.  Run Audyssey.  Listen.  Hook up the other sub.  Run Audyssey.  Listen.  If you have a Denon AVR that allows you to save configurations, you can go back and forth between the two configurations until you are satisfied.

post #59960 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by raaj View Post

Guys,

I have a new Onkyo 818 receiver that I am setting up with a 2.1 setup, consisting of stand mounted monitors (Fountek ribbon tweeters and Vifa XT 7" midwoofer) and a Rythmik LV12R sub. My room layout poses a couple of placement challenges, and I have positioned the furniture, TV and speakers to the best possible (most aesthetic) placement. See the schematic below, followed by the issue I am having.



Are the mic positions I have chosen good enough? I have found that prior to integrating the sub into the setup, the XT32 calibration using these positions yielded what I remember to be a more balanced sound than a previous Audyssey XT setup I did with a Denon 3313 and a Marantz SR5007 receiver before. Now with the Onkyo, after I've introduced the sub into the setup, I tried to recalibrate, and have found that Audyssey set up my front speakers to crossover at 40Hz, and my sub set at +0.5 to +1.5 dB gain. With this setting, I found the sub output to be very lacking, and so raised the crossover to 80Hz as recommended in Audyssey setup. Now I find that the sound is fatiguing (it never was fatiguing before) and that I am missing some midbass in the response.

Any thoughts on what's happening, or what to try next? I don't have REW or measurement gear.

EDIT:
Some follow up technical questions regarding the setup.
  • The setup guide says the mic should point to the ceiling during setup. Does this mean the relative orientation of the mic can be roughly pointed at the ceiling, and not necessarily have to be perpendicular to the ceiling at all times/positions? I ask this because, putting the mic on a tripod on a couch makes the mic to be oriented a couple of degrees either way from perfect perpendicular relative to the ceiling.
  • When moving between different measurement positions, does the mic need to have the same relative angle to the speakers, or does it not matter as the mic might be omnidirectional?

 

Hi raaj - first of all, thanks for posting the useful diagram and for giving us a lot of good info to work with.

 

There are some basics that need to be dealt with first. I agree with Igor wrt to your mic positions. They MUST be 2 feet away from any wall and the most important mic position is the No 1 which should be at your MLP. The levels and distances (delays) are set using that position. I would suggest your current No 3 should be your No 1. Nor would I have 5 positions in a line like you have. Try making three rows instead of two.

 

See these two FAQ answers for a lot of info re mic placement:

 

d)2.   Do I really need to use all the available Audyssey mic positions?
 

d)3.   Where should I position the mic for best results?

 

As Igor says, I would try relocating that sub to be closer to the front speakers, or you could try it to the left of the window on the top wall (as looking at the diagram). Good idea to raise the XO to 80Hz. When you say sub gain is between +0.5dB to +1.5dB, do you mean on the sub itself or the AVR trims?  Either way it doesn't matter much so long as you got it roughly to 75dB when you did the Audyssey initial sub-level setting prior to running the calibration.

 

The mic should be pointing directly up to the ceiling. It is omnidirectional but it needs to be pointing vertically upwards as that gives it the grazing angle that Audyssey assume will be used for the measurements. If it is angled differently, it could affect the measurements, especially the mid and upper frequencies.

 

It is bad practice to put the mic on a tripod on the couch. It can cause problems with the bass. I would suggest you buy a mic boom stand for about $20 and use that, It is much more likely to give you better results and is also much easier to use. See this FAQ answer for more info and also links to a suitable stand and the gizmo you need to attach the Audyssey mic to it.

 

d)1.   Do I really need to put the Audyssey mic on a tripod or stand?

 

 

The horizontal orientation of the mic between measurement positions is not relevant as it is omnidirecrtional. Just ensure that the vertical orientation is upwards.

 

When someone says the sound is 'fatiguing' they usually mean that it is distorted, especially in the upper frequencies. There is no reason why Audyssey should have that effect, but you may care to read this FAQ answer for additional insights:

 

a)9.   Why are my high frequencies 'bright' or 'harsh' since running Audyssey? 

 

If you have any reason to suspect your mic is faulty, you  can try a different mic if you have access to one, but do read this first:

 

d)4.   Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro?

 

If you feel the bass is 'lacking', give it a few days of listening before you come to a definite conclusion or before you raise the levels. The reason is that if you had lumpy bass before, with a big peak somewhere, you may have become used to it and 'flat bass' now sounds 'lacking' to you. A few days of re-orientation can work wonders. It is more that Audyssey 'fixed' your bass rather than attenuated it. See this FAQ answer:

 

f)5.    Since I ran Audyssey everything sounds great - but where has my bass gone?

 

Finally, if you haven't already done so, I would suggest you read the interactive 'Audyssey 101', linked here:

 

 Click Here To Follow Our 'Audyssey 101' For First Time Audyssey Users.

post #59961 of 70890
^ Nice response, Keith.

raaj, looking at your diagram it occurs to me that if the angle of the speakers is accurately represented, they should be reaimed so they point right at MLP. The mic positions should be grouped fairly closely so they don't fall outside the tweeter dispersion angles formed by the speakers. This can cause boosted highs and thus fatiquing sound.
post #59962 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^ Nice response, Keith.

raaj, looking at your diagram it occurs to me that if the angle of the speakers is accurately represented, they should be reaimed so they point right at MLP. The mic positions should be grouped fairly closely so they don't fall outside the tweeter dispersion angles formed by the speakers. This can cause boosted highs and thus fatiquing sound.

 

Thanks SoM. And a good point you raised which I had overlooked. 

post #59963 of 70890
Keith, SoundofMind,

Thank you for your responses. I will post a detailed follow up later today regarding your suggestions. (Need to scramble off to work tongue.gif) Here is a picture of my setup, and it should give you an idea of the several placement constraints I am dealing with. The panorama shot makes the wall behind the TV look curved, but it is absolutely flat. As you can see, there is no room to place the sub to the left of the TV near the window on the top wall, without it looking like an awkward big box left around, and the sub needs at least 6" clearance from the wall eek.gif More to follow soon. Thanks for your help in getting things setup right.

post #59964 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by raaj View Post

Keith, SoundofMind,

Thank you for your responses. I will post a detailed follow up later today regarding your suggestions. (Need to scramble off to work tongue.gif) Here is a picture of my setup, and it should give you an idea of the several placement constraints I am dealing with. The panorama shot makes the wall behind the TV look curved, but it is absolutely flat. As you can see, there is no room to place the sub to the left of the TV near the window on the top wall, without it looking like an awkward big box left around, and the sub needs at least 6" clearance from the wall eek.gif More to follow soon. Thanks for your help in getting things setup right.


Can you place the tv in the middle of the room were the little stand is next to the sub. Place the tv in the center and L,R on each side and sub maybe on the far left or right corner of the room?
post #59965 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Can you place the tv in the middle of the room were the little stand is next to the sub. Place the tv in the center and L,R on each side and sub maybe on the far left or right corner of the room?

{ I should really resist the temptation to check in on this thread at work... tongue.gif}

@asere,

Thanks for taking the time to brainstorm a solution. The location you suggest is not really the middle of the room. If you look at the floorplan below, the location you recommend would be unviewable with the current seating arrangement. See the breakfast bar (half wall) separating the living room area from the kitchen, that rules out placement of the TV and speakers there. I will post a better panoramic shot later that would give you a better idea of the constraints.
post #59966 of 70890

Have you considered wall-mounting the display above the fireplace?  That would make it directly in front of your viewing area, and allow a more symmetric placement of the left and right speakers.

 

And as far as the sub, regardless of esthetics, it should be placed where it provides the smoothest bass.

post #59967 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Have you considered wall-mounting the display above the fireplace?  That would make it directly in front of your viewing area, and allow a more symmetric placement of the left and right speakers.

And as far as the sub, regardless of esthetics, it should be placed where it provides the smoothest bass.

Thank you. That is an obvious and immediate suggestion I get, and I hate to sound dismissive of all good recommendations trying to help. But mounting the TV above the fireplace would result in a literal "pain in the neck" due to it being too high from eye-level at the seating positions. I've tried mounting the TV on the mantle (at about the same height, but in the corner of the room), and it was literally like watching a planetarium presentation, and resulted in headaches and neck pains from the amount of viewing I do each day in front of the TV. redface.giffrown.gif
post #59968 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Have you considered wall-mounting the display above the fireplace?  That would make it directly in front of your viewing area, and allow a more symmetric placement of the left and right speakers.

 

And as far as the sub, regardless of esthetics, it should be placed where it provides the smoothest bass.

 

Wall mounting it is a good idea.

 

WRT to the sub placement, I agree, but I suspect WAF is in play... ;)

post #59969 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by raaj View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Have you considered wall-mounting the display above the fireplace?  That would make it directly in front of your viewing area, and allow a more symmetric placement of the left and right speakers.

And as far as the sub, regardless of esthetics, it should be placed where it provides the smoothest bass.

Thank you. That is an obvious and immediate suggestion I get, and I hate to sound dismissive of all good recommendations trying to help. But mounting the TV above the fireplace would result in a literal "pain in the neck" due to it being too high from eye-level at the seating positions. I've tried mounting the TV on the mantle (at about the same height, but in the corner of the room), and it was literally like watching a planetarium presentation, and resulted in headaches and neck pains from the amount of viewing I do each day in front of the TV. redface.giffrown.gif

 

Yes - good point. Human eyes naturally come to rest slightly below horizontal. Anything above that and you have to use muscles to keep the gaze upwards, hence fatigue setting in. It is a common mistake you see in many homes where they have wall-mounted their flat panel TV above a fireplace.

post #59970 of 70890
Quote:
Originally Posted by raaj View Post

Thank you. That is an obvious and immediate suggestion I get, and I hate to sound dismissive of all good recommendations trying to help. But mounting the TV above the fireplace would result in a literal "pain in the neck" due to it being too high from eye-level at the seating positions. I've tried mounting the TV on the mantle (at about the same height, but in the corner of the room), and it was literally like watching a planetarium presentation, and resulted in headaches and neck pains from the amount of viewing I do each day in front of the TV. redface.giffrown.gif

Hey raaj, how about making a complete twist and moving the TV and electronics + speakers to the opposite wall (to where your couch is now), while moving couch to about 2/3 from TV leaving 1/3 space from back of couch to the fireplace. Just thinking out loud, although many of your problems would be solved (even if new problems are coming up). smile.gif
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)