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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2004

post #60091 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

I was waiting for anyone to come up with that issue of "handle touching the couch"LOL. Guys, let's cut the BS'ing and get serious, OK? What "certain" vibrations are you talking about that need measurements? What are those "many issues" associated with a tripod you are talking about? Can you name just a few to get started? smile.gif

I was simply stating the conventional wisdom:


See: d)1. Do I really need to put the Audyssey mic on a tripod or stand? (Click to hide)
Absolutely yes. This is one of the most common reasons for a poor calibration. You will not get a good result if you hold the mic in your hand, or if you place it on the back of your couch or on some other makeshift support. The mic should be mounted at ear height (when sitting in your usual position), pointed vertically up to the ceiling, clear by at least 2 feet from any walls and placed within the boundary of your left and right speakers. A tripod is OK and many people have these in their possession, but it can be difficult to use as one leg often has to be rested on the floor and the other two legs rested on the chair or couch. Much better is a mic stand - these are fairly inexpensive and they make running the measurements much, much easier. Something like this is fine:
Typical boom mic stand (USA members)
Typical boom mic stand (UK members)

You will also need this gadget to allow you to attach the Audyssey mic to the stand:
Use this to attach your Audyssey mic to your stand
A far superior, but much more expensive, mic adapter (UK members)
A far superior, but much more expensive, mic adapter (USA members)
If you use the Audio-Technica adapter (see above link) you will also need this
Another high quality adapter, available in the UK and USA

If your floors are the wooden suspended sort, you may want to place the legs of the mic stand on some sort of absorber to minimise the chance of spurious bass signals entering the mic via the floor and the stand itself. These are ideal for most people:
Some isolator feet you might want to check out
Isolator feet for UK members on sale here

If your floor is solid or carpeted then you probably don't need the absorbers.

When measuring with a mic stand, try to avoid positioning the boom arm between the mic and the speakers.

If you are satisfied with your results, and how your system sounds in your room - that's great. I have no quarrel with your approach - but it sounds like you were waiting for this issue to arise to make a point. I'm no expert, but as many in this thread have suggested - a boom mic stand eliminates any possibility of unnecessary vibrations influencing the Audyssey calculations.
post #60092 of 70896
Guys i just run my audysy with my rc 70 fronts no center and take classic surrounds. Which one i need to adjust fronts was set to large Front crossover set to 40hz surround 120hz.subwoofer mode LFE LPF for LFE 120hz.
post #60093 of 70896
I just reset my Audyssey setting for the thousandth time. I am watching the Academy Awards and the ABC telecast seems like 75% of the sound is coming from my rear speakers. Is anyone else running Audyssey hearing the same thing during the Academy Awards?
post #60094 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sojodave View Post

I just reset my Audyssey setting for the thousandth time. I am watching the Academy Awards and the ABC telecast seems like 75% of the sound is coming from my rear speakers. Is anyone else running Audyssey hearing the same thing during the Academy Awards?

That's caused by Dynamic EQ mixing with poorly produced TV audio. Likely that broadcast has a bunch of crowd noise pumped into the surrounds to make it sound immersive on cheap HTIB stereo setups. When Dyn EQ boosts the surrounds it then becomes overwhelming. The solution is to turn off Dyn EQ or to adjust the reference level offset if your receiver has this (you didn't note your receiver model).
post #60095 of 70896
I have a Denon 1613 and I turned off the dynamic eq and now my speakers sound calibrated.
Edited by sojodave - 2/24/13 at 8:12pm
post #60096 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

Guys i just run my audysy with my rc 70 fronts no center and take classic surrounds. Which one i need to adjust fronts was set to large Front crossover set to 40hz surround 120hz.subwoofer mode LFE LPF for LFE 120hz.
Batpig, i dont have a takes sub. The sub i am using is dayton 1200. Should i still live it as is or tweak it to small 80hz?thanks.
post #60097 of 70896
I wish you hadn't double posted in two threads, makes it harder to follow. But that sub is more powerful so definitely set them to small... But you may find the 70s have cleaner/tighter mid bass.

Put it in STEREO mode and play some of your favorite bass heavy music and experiment with 60 vs 80 hz, and pick the setting that sounds the best to you.
post #60098 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I wish you hadn't double posted in two threads, makes it harder to follow. But that sub is more powerful so definitely set them to small... But you may find the 70s have cleaner/tighter mid bass.

Put it in STEREO mode and play some of your favorite bass heavy music and experiment with 60 vs 80 hz, and pick the setting that sounds the best to you.
Im sorry for double posting. I reply here because its more audysy proble. Ok i will try that i put to small and i will experiment the 60 and 80hz. In stereo mode do i need to turn on the sub? ThaNk you sir batpig.
post #60099 of 70896
If the speakers are set to small at will activate the sub automatically in Stereo mode. That's what the small/large setting does, it turns in bass management when speakers are set to small.
post #60100 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

If the speakers are set to small at will activate the sub automatically in Stereo mode. That's what the small/large setting does, it turns in bass management when speakers are set to small.
Got it. Ty
post #60101 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sojodave View Post

I just reset my Audyssey setting for the thousandth time. I am watching the Academy Awards and the ABC telecast seems like 75% of the sound is coming from my rear speakers. Is anyone else running Audyssey hearing the same thing during the Academy Awards?

This is one reason that I have a HT room with Integra 80.3 for just movies and the living room TV setup with the Denon 4311. TV audio thru Audyssey is not always the same from channel to channel and ABC is the worst. I have found CBS to have the best SQ.
post #60102 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonT35 View Post

I have a tripod but when I put it on the couch I can't get the mic low enough to ear height. I was thinking of getting a mic boom but where do I place the mic boom stand? The only place would be somewhere in front of the couch and then I can extend the boom to each seating location, but having the stand in front of the couch will be in the path of the l/c/r speakers. Is that ok?
The idea is to not have the upright portion of the mic stand, or the boom arm, directly between any speaker (particularly the tweeter) and the mic. With 5.1 it's not too hard but the more channels/speakers one has, the trickier this is to arrange. One solution is to place the mic stand behind the MLP chair/couch, extend the boom forward and swing it to various spots.

Another is to use a very short, "tabletop" mic stand with boom LIKE THIS ONE: http://www.amazon.com/Stage-Rocker-Hamilton-SR610121C-Lo-Profile/dp/B0087UPY4C/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1361872499&sr=8-6&keywords=low+profile+mic+stand.
I chopped the inner, upright extension tube of my Pro Kit stand so it is no taller than the outer tube. Now the entire stand is below tweeter level. Now I can place the base pretty much wherever I like and just angle the boom upwards till the mic is at ear level. Positioning is far easier now with my 7.2 system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

This is all interesting as I got a better SQ using a Tripod on the HT seats then with the Pro mic stand. It must be my old ears!
One can get vibration and/or reflection problems with tripod or mic stand and one can get excellent results with either as well. Barring those and other common sampling errors, IME the mic position pattern is the greatest factor in obtaining good results. I used to get very good results with careful tripod placement but all the positioning shenanigans were a hassle. It is far easier with my custom modded "chopper" Pro stand.

I prefer the results in my room with a close mic pattern, all within a 3' radius of MLP. I've found another good technique in my room is to vary the height +/- 2" on a few of the mic posistions (as is recommended in the Pro instructions).
edit:Link added
Edited by SoundofMind - 2/26/13 at 1:58am
post #60103 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Arguably, time domain correction is even more important that frequency domain.

Each domain is just as important as the other one. Ranking them is not applicable here.....smile.gif

 

Not everyone would agree with you, which is why I said 'arguably'.   You can have a very nice flat frequency response and yet the room rings like hell. In that case time domain is way more important. If you have a frequency response that is up and down by 20 or 30dB at the low end, it is not likely to be good in the time domain either. Hence, arguably, time domain correction is even more important than frequency domain. 

post #60104 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post


It would be interesting to see measurements with & without the handle on your microphone making contact with your couch, as it seems that it may transfer certain vibrations to your microphone. My understanding is that using a boom mic removes many of the issues associated with a tripod that seem to be replicated with your "Rube Goldberg" setup.

I was waiting for anyone to come up with that issue of "handle touching the couch"LOL. Guys, let's cut the BS'ing and get serious, OK? What "certain" vibrations are you talking about that need measurements? What are those "many issues" associated with a tripod you are talking about? Can you name just a few to get started? smile.gif

 

Are mic stands really, really expensive in Hungary?  Why use a Heath Robinson contraption if the proper mic stand is only a few bucks?

post #60105 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sojodave View Post

I have a Denon 1613 and I turned off the dynamic eq and now my speakers sound calibrated.

 

Dynamic EQ is hit or miss with TV and music because there are no set standards, unlike with movies. You found the 'miss' side of the equation :)

post #60106 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

... it sounds like you were waiting for this issue to arise to make a point. I'm no expert, but as many in this thread have suggested - a boom mic stand eliminates any possibility of unnecessary vibrations influencing the Audyssey calculations.
I'm in no way meaning to be contentious, but I will defend Feri's line of inquiry. In fact I had some fairly similar thoughts as Feri did to pbarach's post on SQ improvement after going from camera tripod to boom mic stand. I don't question that it sounds better, but to me it rather begs the question of why. To me, it is not simply the gear but rather how the gear is used/misused, as well as other fators such as mic positions. So a nice discussion has ensued on an oldy-but-goody Audyssey topic that can indeed lead to dramatically improved SQ in some cases. smile.gif

Also, not to be nitpicky, but I'd not entirely agree with your last statement. There have been problems associated with improper use of boom mic stand. But such a mic stand makes it easier to control some of those confounding factors in measurement technique and is sure a heckuva lot easier to use!
post #60107 of 70896
I have a question regarding how audyssey would work with an external dsp. I am considering having "full range" speakers up front (L C R) and using an external dsp with my Integra 80.2. The external DSP would control the crossover between the LCR and the subwoofer, because the crossover in the Integra is not ideal in this case.....the DSP would be programmed with the appropriate crossover sending frequencies below 45-50 hz to the sub from the LCR.

So the LCR would be set using Audyssey Pro to Large (or Full range). Then the DSP would send the appropriate frequencies to the Subwoofer with the correct slopes. What I would worry about is that Audyssey only corrects to the -3 db point....so lets assume my LCR are down 3 db at 50 hz....that means no correction to the LCR signal below 50 hz. Then the external dsp would send that uncorrected signal below 50 hz to the subwoofer......and the subwoofer would play those redirected frequencies that are uncorrected by Audssey.

Am I missing something here? Thanks.
post #60108 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Are mic stands really, really expensive in Hungary?  Why use a Heath Robinson contraption if the proper mic stand is only a few bucks?

Don't know how is it in Hungary. I've bought my in Estonia for 27 EUR (plus $7 head for mountin Audyssey mic on eBay). This is after I visited music shop and the cheapest one was more than 100 EUR there... eek.gif I've just said "you guys here crazy" and went to the radio/electronics parts store and bought the only one that was there smile.gif
post #60109 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

... it sounds like you were waiting for this issue to arise to make a point. I'm no expert, but as many in this thread have suggested - a boom mic stand eliminates any possibility of unnecessary vibrations influencing the Audyssey calculations.
I'm in no way meaning to be contentious, but I will defend Feri's line of inquiry. In fact I had some fairly similar thoughts as Feri did to pbarach's post on SQ improvement after going from camera tripod to boom mic stand. I don't question that it sounds better, but to me it rather begs the question of why. To me, it is not simply the gear but rather how the gear is used/misused, as well as other fators such as mic positions. So a nice discussion has ensued on an oldy-but-goody Audyssey topic that can indeed lead to dramatically improved SQ in some cases. smile.gif

Also, not to be nitpicky, but I'd not entirely agree with your last statement. There have been problems associated with improper use of boom mic stand. But such a mic stand makes it easier to control some of those confounding factors in measurement technique and is sure a heckuva lot easier to use!

 

I’d agree with you in general SoM, but the OP has posted that the difference came about only as a result of using the boom stand instead of the tripod. He mentions no other setup changes. There may be some small differences in mic placement, but by the same token that one can argue that stand vs tripod cannot make 'dramatic' differences, so one can argue that small differences in mic placement cannot either. The OP describes the difference as 'dramatic' and this is of course an entirely subjective term and I would normally raise an eyebrow at it too. But when he also says that in the prior calibration he needed subtitles to understand certain dialogue and now he does not, then I'd say that this falls into the 'dramatic difference' camp :)

 

It is possible that the tripod was being badly used - indeed this is the main problem with using a tripod: it is not designed for the purpose under discussion so misuse is easy. And it is possible that the boom mic stand can be misused too, but it less likely to be so. And because a mic stand has been designed to hold a mic, its designers have taken steps to ensure that it does this without introducing problems caused by vibrations, mic mounting and so on. For this reason, all boom stands are essentially similar in design and do not have huge, thick legs like some tripods do, or large reflective heads under the mic, like some tripods do. I can change a tyre on my road bike using two spoons. Usually this would work. Sometimes it will rip the inner tube. A set of tyre levers costs next to nothing and gives a perfect result every time. Why would I defend the use of spoons?  Yes, they can do the job. After a fashion. Ans imperfectly sometimes. But really...

 

It seems, as as often been so in the case of some members' recent posts, that a large mountain is being made out of a very small molehill. The only sensible advice is that one should always use a mic stand for best results if possible. A tripod can be a useful makeshift device but it is not the proper device to use. By using a mic stand one eliminates yet another variable and this can only be good. 

 

And, for most of us, they cost 20 bucks!  What is there to even discuss, really?

post #60110 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Are mic stands really, really expensive in Hungary?  Why use a Heath Robinson contraption if the proper mic stand is only a few bucks?

Don't know how is it in Hungary. I've bought my in Estonia for 27 EUR (plus $7 head for mountin Audyssey mic on eBay). This is after I visited music shop and the cheapest one was more than 100 EUR there... eek.gif I've just said "you guys here crazy" and went to the radio/electronics parts store and bought the only one that was there smile.gif

 

And I am guessing that 34 Euros is an insignificant part of the total cost of your system? ;)

 

Do you not have Amazon or eBay yet in your country?

post #60111 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I’d agree with you in general SoM, but the OP has posted that the difference came about only as a result of using the boom stand instead of the tripod. He mentions no other setup changes.

Right, there were no other setup changes. I do think it's highly likely that I was more accurate in keeping the mic at exactly ear height with the boom mic than with the tripod--but the variation would have been only a couple of inches. Still, I don't know if that explains any part of, or all of, the dramatic (yes, I am stickin' with that word!) improvement I noticed after recalibration with the boom mic stand.
Edited by pbarach - 2/25/13 at 9:32am
post #60112 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

And I am guessing that 34 Euros is an insignificant part of the total cost of your system? wink.gif

Do you not have Amazon or eBay yet in your country?

Guys, I don't think our current discussion should be routed to the price level of mic stands in various countries. As we already know, some can get excellent results with the Audyssey mic tied to a broom stick while others have reported severe harshness in the HF region despite the use of gold plated mic stands. There are many factors to be take into consideration (also described in the FAQ) when doing auto setup, and the way the mic is placed is just one of them, probably not the most important one. Agree?
post #60113 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I’d agree with you in general SoM, but the OP has posted that the difference came about only as a result of using the boom stand instead of the tripod. He mentions no other setup changes.

Right, there were no other setup changes. I do think it's highly likely that I was more accurate in keeping the mic at exactly ear height with the boom mic than with the tripod--but the variation would have been only a couple of inches. Still, I don't know if that explains any part of, or all of, the dramatic (yes, I am stickin' with that word!) improvement I noticed after recalibration with the boom mic stand.

 

As the actress said to the Bishop, a couple of inches can be important ;)  But who knows - the point is, using the mic stand gave you the best result you have experienced. For me at least, that points to using a mic stand and not a tripod contraption that may or may not work properly. Turning off those subtitles would be all the proof I needed! 

post #60114 of 70896
Can someone suggest a cheap mic stand?
post #60115 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Can someone suggest a cheap mic stand?

Which country? I heard Hong Kong Airport is dirt cheap, they sell it by the dozen! LOL smile.gif
post #60116 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

And I am guessing that 34 Euros is an insignificant part of the total cost of your system? wink.gif

Do you not have Amazon or eBay yet in your country?

Guys, I don't think our current discussion should be routed to the price level of mic stands in various countries. As we already know, some can get excellent results with the Audyssey mic tied to a broom stick

 

 

I'd need to see verification of that statement. Personally I would very much doubt it.

 

The point about the price of a mic stand is very relevant IMO. If someone spends, say, $10,000 on their system (by no means excessive or unknown here) the mic stand represents 0.2% of their system cost. It seems to me ludicrous to use a lash-up of various bits and pieces of household paraphernalia or a tripod designed for holding a camera, in order to save spending 0.2% of the system cost!

 

Quote:
 while others have reported severe harshness in the HF region despite the use of gold plated mic stands. There are many factors to be take into consideration (also described in the FAQ) when doing auto setup, and the way the mic is placed is just one of them, probably not the most important one. Agree?

 

Nobody said, AFAICR, that the method of supporting the mic was a) the only thing that mattered or b) the most important thing. 

post #60117 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Can someone suggest a cheap mic stand?

 

Already done, in the FAQ:

 

d)1.   Do I really need to put the Audyssey mic on a tripod or stand?

 

But any will do. Amazon have dozens to choose from.

post #60118 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Already done, in the FAQ:

d)1.   Do I really need to put the Audyssey mic on a tripod or stand?


But any will do. Amazon have dozens to choose from.

From what I read I would also need to buy an adapter to place the Audyssey mic on right?
post #60119 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

From what I read I would also need to buy an adapter to place the Audyssey mic on right?

Yes, This one will do.
post #60120 of 70896
I noticed something very unusual. This has been discussed and discussed. I have run Audyssey XT32 multiple times with my Onkyo and never got this error. I also ran my first calibration with the Denon the other day and not received this error either. I got a phase error on my center channel. Im assuming it is the room tricking Audyssey, mainly because all my other speakers are all identical in xover build. None of my other speakers exhibiting this error on first measurement.

Im coming from a Onkyo 5508 to the Denon 4520CI. Like I said, have run multiple calibrations with xt32 without ever seeing this error before.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)