or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2013

post #60361 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Heck, I think Chris K. is watching us from the clouds. Here's what he has to say on the issue of lowering the LPF from 120 Hz to 80 Hz. " If you feel like remixing (some call it shaping...) the content in the LFE track then sure. So, preference vs reference again. But if you want to hear it the way it was mixed then you should leave it at 120 Hz (or higher where it won't be in the way)."

A candidate for the FAQ, eh? smile.gif

Source: Audyssey Tech Talk at FB. smile.gif
I can allow that the .1 channel on some surround music mixes might have extraneous and even annoying content, and maybe LPF at 80Hz cleans them up. But until I hear a movie that sounds better that way, and maybe not even then as I would tend to trust the standards-based movie industry more than the music biz, the LPF setting is ... unneeded.
post #60362 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I can allow that the .1 channel on some surround music mixes might have extraneous and even annoying content, and maybe LPF at 80Hz cleans them up. But until I hear a movie that sounds better that way, and maybe not even then as I would tend to trust the standards-based movie industry more than the music biz, the LPF setting is ... unneeded.

I the LPF at 80 for movies and with 4 Submersives I can tell the difference especially with Total Recall. It probably has to be due to me having 4 subs on a 2300 cu ft treated room. The bass just seems to me to be sharper and tighter. Just like the first time we did the other thing!
post #60363 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I the LPF at 80 for movies and with 4 Submersives I can tell the difference especially with Total Recall. It probably has to be due to me having 4 subs on a 2300 cu ft treated room. The bass just seems to me to be sharper and tighter. Just like the first time we did the other thing!

TMI
post #60364 of 70896
DTF?
post #60365 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There is a definite improvement in bass tightness on some movie tracks.
Plus, now that you're measuring, you have a single blend point between your speakers and subs (instead of 80Hz for the derived bass and 120Hz for the discrete bass).
post #60366 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Plus, now that you're measuring, you have a single blend point between your speakers and subs (instead of 80Hz for the derived bass and 120Hz for the discrete bass).

Hmm that seems reasonable. Probably won't do much for me since my crossovers are at 110hz -_-
post #60367 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

lol, this wouldn't even be on my list of things that would make me *think* my system sounded different.

Heck, I think Chris K. is watching us from the clouds. Here's what he has to say on the issue of lowering the LPF from 120 Hz to 80 Hz. " If you feel like remixing (some call it shaping...) the content in the LFE track then sure. So, preference vs reference again. But if you want to hear it the way it was mixed then you should leave it at 120 Hz (or higher where it won't be in the way)."

A candidate for the FAQ, eh? smile.gif

Source: Audyssey Tech Talk at FB. smile.gif

 

The FAQ already clearly states Audyssey's position on LPF of LFE. It also makes it clear that the setting of the LPF to anything other than 120Hz is a preference issue.

 

The problem is 'hearing it the way it was mixed' might make it sound like cr&p if the mixer shoved all manner of stuff into the LFE channel above 120Hz in order to make the bass sound better in less than adequate cinemas (as Roger Dressler suggests might happen).  On my admittedly limited listening tests, I could hear a slightly tighter bass (a little boom removed) on some content when using 80Hz. On other content I could hear no difference - I assume because the mixer didn't put much into the LFE channel above 80Hz anyway. 

 

I'd suggest that anyone interested, and who has good, capable subs, just tries it out. A good disc to hear the difference is Total Recall (2012) (more or less any chapter) and Taken (sequence where Mills visits the tented brothel to look for his daughter, the subsequent shootout and his escape by vehicle through the construction site culminating in him driving through a temporary structure). 

post #60368 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

smile.gif  If you have the Total Recall (2012) Bluray, give it a try. The difference is quite noticeable here. 

Incidentally, although that movie was panned by every critic on the planet, I really enjoyed it. One has to get over comparing it with the original - it bears no comparison (and yes, the original is better - but that was then and this is now).  I feel somewhat similar about Bourne Legacy too. I saw it at an actual cinema and wasn't much impressed but since getting it anyway on BD, I have grown to like it).

I had read reviews and was going to pass on it, but then a few days ago I saw a lot of it and was blown away with how great the effects and mix were. Neither Beckinsale nor Sharon Stone could act their way out of a paper bag, or Ahhnold or Colin Farrell for that matter. But holy crap was I ever transfixed. So, LPF at 80 and LPF at 120 sound different? Which is "right?"

 

Yes - it doesn't count as 'art' in any way, but it is exceptionally well made and crafted, visually, sonically and effects-wise. It will sure give your subs a workout! And Kate and Jessica are very easy on the eye ;)

 

LPF of 80Hz or 120Hz - moving away from 120Hz has to be preference so 'right' isn't an issue then. I'd suggest you try it if you have a spare half hour and see if you heard the same as I did. I think one needs very capable subwoofers perhaps, to really hear the difference - but that is you too, so give it a go and see what you think. Roger Dressler and Mark Seaton are just about the most credible sources one gets on AVS, and they both prefer 80Hz.... which is why I was moved to try it myself.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 3/4/13 at 2:26am
post #60369 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I can allow that the .1 channel on some surround music mixes might have extraneous and even annoying content, and maybe LPF at 80Hz cleans them up. But until I hear a movie that sounds better that way, and maybe not even then as I would tend to trust the standards-based movie industry more than the music biz, the LPF setting is ... unneeded.

I the LPF at 80 for movies and with 4 Submersives I can tell the difference especially with Total Recall. It probably has to be due to me having 4 subs on a 2300 cu ft treated room. The bass just seems to me to be sharper and tighter. Just like the first time we did the other thing!

 

Yes, I agree. I do think that this difference is only going to be obvious to people with extremely capable subs, able to not just dig deep but also to exhibit subtle nuances of difference. It really is just obvious on Total Recall (2012) isn’t it?  I am in a slightly similar position to you with 2 Submersives in a highly treated room of just over 1000 cu ft.

 

FWIW, I tried different settings of LPF of LFE ages ago when I had my dual SVS PC12-NSD subs and at that time I coule hear no difference at all, on either setting. So that reinforces my view that it may require exceptionally capable subs to fully reveal the difference.

post #60370 of 70896
When I claimed I heard a profound difference, I actually did. I was watching LoTR TT, and switched from 120 to 80 during the epic battle scene during the end, and the bass, to me, sound much different in terms of tightness.
post #60371 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

The FAQ already clearly states Audyssey's position on LPF of LFE. It also makes it clear that the setting of the LPF to anything other than 120Hz is a preference issue.

 

The problem is 'hearing it the way it was mixed' might make it sound like cr&p if the mixer shoved all manner of stuff into the LFE channel above 120Hz in order to make the bass sound better in less than adequate cinemas (as Roger Dressler suggests might happen).  On my admittedly limited listening tests, I could hear a slightly tighter bass (a little boom removed) on some content when using 80Hz. On other content I could hear no difference - I assume because the mixer didn't put much into the LFE channel above 80Hz anyway. 

 

I'd suggest that anyone interested, and who has good, capable subs, just tries it out. A good disc to hear the difference is Total Recall (2012) (more or less any chapter) and Taken (sequence where Mills visits the tented brothel to look for his daughter, the subsequent shootout and his escape by vehicle through the construction site culminating in him driving through a temporary structure). 

 

I still think the benefits of setting LPF to 80Hz applies more to MC music sources than movies.  AFAIK, music should not be mixed with content in the .1 channel.  However, if you perform the test I described earlier (play a MC source like SACD, set speakers to Large, and turn the speakers off so just the subs are playing), you will hear some content that has muffled, imprecise bass sound coming from the subs.  The presence of this unwanted .1 signal detracts from the pure quality that would be coming from redirected bass.

 

So, perhaps the recommendation should be:  set LPF to 120Hz for movies, and switch to 80Hz for MC music.

post #60372 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Plus, now that you're measuring, you have a single blend point between your speakers and subs (instead of 80Hz for the derived bass and 120Hz for the discrete bass).

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Hmm that seems reasonable. Probably won't do much for me since my crossovers are at 110hz -_-

lol, Sanjay. smile.gif
post #60373 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheYC View Post

When I claimed I heard a profound difference, I actually did. I was watching LoTR TT, and switched from 120 to 80 during the epic battle scene during the end, and the bass, to me, sound much different in terms of tightness.
Well, it's entirely possible that what you characterize as tighter just had some things missing. And if your system/room response is still too resonant 80-120, then yes it might sound a bit tighter since you are exciting those modes less. However, that is not the recommended correction.

Just tossin' that out there ...

Jeff
post #60374 of 70896
I would love some direction with my situation, of which I have had several more folks over the last few weeks exhibit similar situations as well. I have a marantz 8801 but the same issue happened on my Denon 4311 before I switched out. I have a LOT of subwoofage, but even with only half, 1/4 of it running, the same still applies. SO here is what happens, EVERYTIME I try and run Audyssey.

-Plug in mic and it takes me to Audyssey
-Start sweep and it measures subs first to check levels
-Tells me subs are too high and to level them out, which I do, as close to 75dB as I can get.
-Audyssey completes and upon checking levels, subs are both set at -12!!!!!
-Check with my spl meter to see what the subs actually read, and sure enough, they are both a good 10-12dB below where all the other speakers are set.

My #1 issue here is why in the world would Audyssey tell me my levels are too high, and make me turn my gains down on the amp to maybe a single notch over "off" only to run the system and then go back and set them at -12dB which is obviously FAR from where they SHOULD be set. by the time I get them level matched, they are both somewhere between -3 and 0.0 which is where I like it to be. I just am thrown as to why Audyssey tells me levels are too high, I level them correctly, then it does all this, only for me to go back and recorrect all the levels basically back to where I started...
post #60375 of 70896
What are you using to hold the mic?
post #60376 of 70896
tripod
post #60377 of 70896
beastaudio,

The implication from your description (-12dB) is that you need to turn the volume control knob on your subs down even further. When Audyssey's calibration has completed with a level other than -12dB, and Audyssey is enabled, the 8801 is supposed to be supplying the correct signal level to generate reference sound levels.

When you run a sound level test with Audyssey enabled, you'll need to use an audio calibration disc or other external calibrated signal source. (Some people use the tones provided by REW.) The 8801's internal test tones do not go through Audyssey, so you can't use them to verify sound levels when Audyssey is enabled.
post #60378 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

The FAQ already clearly states Audyssey's position on LPF of LFE. It also makes it clear that the setting of the LPF to anything other than 120Hz is a preference issue.

 

The problem is 'hearing it the way it was mixed' might make it sound like cr&p if the mixer shoved all manner of stuff into the LFE channel above 120Hz in order to make the bass sound better in less than adequate cinemas (as Roger Dressler suggests might happen).  On my admittedly limited listening tests, I could hear a slightly tighter bass (a little boom removed) on some content when using 80Hz. On other content I could hear no difference - I assume because the mixer didn't put much into the LFE channel above 80Hz anyway. 

 

I'd suggest that anyone interested, and who has good, capable subs, just tries it out. A good disc to hear the difference is Total Recall (2012) (more or less any chapter) and Taken (sequence where Mills visits the tented brothel to look for his daughter, the subsequent shootout and his escape by vehicle through the construction site culminating in him driving through a temporary structure). 

 

I still think the benefits of setting LPF to 80Hz applies more to MC music sources than movies.  AFAIK, music should not be mixed with content in the .1 channel.  However, if you perform the test I described earlier (play a MC source like SACD, set speakers to Large, and turn the speakers off so just the subs are playing), you will hear some content that has muffled, imprecise bass sound coming from the subs.  The presence of this unwanted .1 signal detracts from the pure quality that would be coming from redirected bass.

 

So, perhaps the recommendation should be:  set LPF to 120Hz for movies, and switch to 80Hz for MC music.

 

Yes, it may well be more beneficial on music. But the difference can still be easily heard on some movie content.

post #60379 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheYC View Post

When I claimed I heard a profound difference, I actually did. I was watching LoTR TT, and switched from 120 to 80 during the epic battle scene during the end, and the bass, to me, sound much different in terms of tightness.
Well, it's entirely possible that what you characterize as tighter just had some things missing. And if your system/room response is still too resonant 80-120, then yes it might sound a bit tighter since you are exciting those modes less. However, that is not the recommended correction.

Just tossin' that out there ...

Jeff

 

That's not what Mark said and Roger measured though...

post #60380 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

-Tells me subs are too high and to level them out, which I do, as close to 75dB as I can get.
-Audyssey completes and upon checking levels, subs are both set at -12!!!!!
-Check with my spl meter to see what the subs actually read, and sure enough, they are both a good 10-12dB below where all the other speakers are set.

 

 

When you say 'sure enough' it sounds as if you expect the subs to be down by 10-12dB because the trim is set to -12dB. That isn’t how it works. The trim sets it so that the subs are playing at 75dB when the system is calibrated.  

 

Which version of Audyssey are you using?  Does your version check the sub levels before it allows you to start the calibration run? Is that where you are seeing the level of 75dB and adjusting the sub gain to achieve it?  Or are you measuring 75dB using a SPL meter and then adjusting the sub gain to match it?

 

If the former, something is wrong. When Audyssey measures the sub SPL and you set it to 75dB then Audyssey knows it is 75dB and it should not then set the trim to -12dB.  Are you using a mic stand or tripod to hold the mic?  Is the mic the original mic that came with your unit?

 

Have you read the FAQ and/or 101 (linked in my sig) and followed all of the advice in there for conducting the calibration?  Mic pointing vertically up, at ear level etc?

post #60381 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I would love some direction with my situation, of which I have had several more folks over the last few weeks exhibit similar situations as well. I have a marantz 8801 but the same issue happened on my Denon 4311 before I switched out. I have a LOT of subwoofage, but even with only half, 1/4 of it running, the same still applies. SO here is what happens, EVERYTIME I try and run Audyssey.

-Plug in mic and it takes me to Audyssey
-Start sweep and it measures subs first to check levels
-Tells me subs are too high and to level them out, which I do, as close to 75dB as I can get.
-Audyssey completes and upon checking levels, subs are both set at -12!!!!!
-Check with my spl meter to see what the subs actually read, and sure enough, they are both a good 10-12dB below where all the other speakers are set.

My #1 issue here is why in the world would Audyssey tell me my levels are too high, and make me turn my gains down on the amp to maybe a single notch over "off" only to run the system and then go back and set them at -12dB which is obviously FAR from where they SHOULD be set. by the time I get them level matched, they are both somewhere between -3 and 0.0 which is where I like it to be. I just am thrown as to why Audyssey tells me levels are too high, I level them correctly, then it does all this, only for me to go back and recorrect all the levels basically back to where I started...
2 questions:
- You wouldn't happen to have suspended flooring would you?
- What kind of subwoofer distances do you get from the Audyssey calibration?

- If you have suspended flooring (or you're placing the tripod on a leather couch etc.) bass vibrations can easily travel up the tripod and skew the mic measurements. Audyssey measures too much bass and forces you to turn it down.

Try insulating the tripod's feet from whatever it's placed on, or insulating the mic from the tripod.


Max
post #60382 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The FAQ already clearly states Audyssey's position on LPF of LFE. It also makes it clear that the setting of the LPF to anything other than 120Hz is a preference issue.

The problem is 'hearing it the way it was mixed' might make it sound like cr

I still think the benefits of setting LPF to 80Hz applies more to MC music sources than movies.  AFAIK, music should not be mixed with content in the .1 channel.  However, if you perform the test I described earlier (play a MC source like SACD, set speakers to Large, and turn the speakers off so just the subs are playing), you will hear some content that has muffled, imprecise bass sound coming from the subs.  The presence of this unwanted .1 signal detracts from the pure quality that would be coming from redirected bass.

So, perhaps the recommendation should be:  set LPF to 120Hz for movies, and switch to 80Hz for MC music.

Yes, it may well be more beneficial on music. But the difference can still be easily heard on some movie content.
Any particular scenes in TR that stand out as being obviously different? I'd like to try it out, but there's no way I'll sit through that movie twice in a row with the 2 different settings to hear the difference. To me, the new TR, even more so than Tron Legacy, is nothing but eye (and maybe ear) candy. I liked the original TR. The new one had changes for the sake of being different, but several of the changes just don't make sense, where the original had valid reasons for those parts/concepts.


Max
post #60383 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Probably won't do much for me since my crossovers are at 110hz -_-
Why are your crossovers that high? Aren't you using THX certified speakers?
post #60384 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

beastaudio,

The implication from your description (-12dB) is that you need to turn the volume control knob on your subs down even further. When Audyssey's calibration has completed with a level other than -12dB, and Audyssey is enabled, the 8801 is supposed to be supplying the correct signal level to generate reference sound levels.

When you run a sound level test with Audyssey enabled, you'll need to use an audio calibration disc or other external calibrated signal source. (Some people use the tones provided by REW.) The 8801's internal test tones do not go through Audyssey, so you can't use them to verify sound levels when Audyssey is enabled.

Can't turn my amp gains down anymore or the pre-audyssey sub test says they are too low! I have them dead center on 75dB before Audyssey runs. My responses are very similar before and after audyssey so I have confirmed that the spl level of the internal tone as well as my external sources are pretty spot on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

-Tells me subs are too high and to level them out, which I do, as close to 75dB as I can get.

-Audyssey completes and upon checking levels, subs are both set at -12!!!!!

-Check with my spl meter to see what the subs actually read, and sure enough, they are both a good 10-12dB below where all the other speakers are set.


 

When you say 'sure enough' it sounds as if you expect the subs to be down by 10-12dB because the trim is set to -12dB. That isn’t how it works. The trim sets it so that the subs are playing at 75dB when the system is calibrated.  

Nope, not expecting it, but measuring their level shows that they truly ARE 10-12dB lower than the rest of the system. The subs are nowhere close to 75dB after calibration, it is actually closer to 65dB afterwards. very strange indeed.

Which version of Audyssey are you using?  Does your version check the sub levels before it allows you to start the calibration run? Is that where you are seeing the level of 75dB and adjusting the sub gain to achieve it?  Or are you measuring 75dB using a SPL meter and then adjusting the sub gain to match it?

Audyssey xt32 with subEQ Ht on my 8801, but saw the same issue on the Denon 4311. I am using the pre-audyssey on-screen level matching meter to set my amp gains before audyssey runs...

If the former, something is wrong. When Audyssey measures the sub SPL and you set it to 75dB then Audyssey knows it is 75dB and it should not then set the trim to -12dB.  Are you using a mic stand or tripod to hold the mic?  Is the mic the original mic that came with your unit?

EXACTLY!! that is obviously NOT what is happening, but all parts are stock, right out of the box, in regards to BOTH units. I am using a tripod to hold the mic, but i will experiment using a mic stand further away to see what this does as well...

Have you read the FAQ and/or 101 (linked in my sig) and followed all of the advice in there for conducting the calibration?  Mic pointing vertically up, at ear level etc?

Oh yea, I have done 1,000's of sweeps and bottom line, my response is dead flat, pretty much +/- 3dB (if I wanted it that way) measured in several spots. So I am not really complaining here, but more curious as to why Audyssey goes this way about setting my subs. My main workaround so far is to set my gains a little below 75dB reading on the pre-test and it gets my subs around -8 or so, which is ok, but I do still have to go in and level match the subs to the rest of system regardless...
post #60385 of 70896
beastaudio,

I'm beginning to suspect there's something broken in your 8801: you can't turn the sub down because the pre/pro reports that it's too quiet, but you have to turn it down because Audyssey reports that it's too loud.

It might be just the microphone. A surprising number of people have reported failures in them recently.

Edited to add: another thing you might consider trying would be an in-line attenuator. That'd let you turn up the volume control knob on the subwoofer, perhaps getting it into a range where you'd have more precise control.
post #60386 of 70896
Selden, I would tend to agree with you there, but I had the same problem with my 4311, different microphone. It did almost the exact same thing. For that reason only I have thinking it is closer to what the pre-audyssey tone is reading from either my placement of the mic, or the pre-audyssey frequency response down low, but as I have stated, it is still pretty good (flat) before I even run audyssey. Also not to forget I have spoken with several other members that have seen the same thing happen.
post #60387 of 70896
Have you tried contacting the manufacturer of your subwoofer? (Sorry, I've forgotten its details.) Having to turn its volume control almost down to the bottom (where it's bound to be less accurate) really shouldn't be necessary, but is why I suggested trying an in-line attenuator.

While I don't doubt some people have had problems similar to what you've encountered, quite a few other people using the same electronics, whether 4311 or 8801, haven't seen them at all. It'd be nice to find some common cause.
post #60388 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

 
Any particular scenes in TR that stand out as being obviously different? I'd like to try it out, but there's no way I'll sit through that movie twice in a row with the 2 different settings to hear the difference. To me, the new TR, even more so than Tron Legacy, is nothing but eye (and maybe ear) candy. I liked the original TR. The new one had changes for the sake of being different, but several of the changes just don't make sense, where the original had valid reasons for those parts/concepts.


Max

 

:)  I agree with your critical evaluation but I still enjoyed it quite a lot. Yes, it is stupid in (many) parts but it is very well done stupid.

 

More or less any scenes will do. The opening has some good bass right from the start. There are a lot of scenes with deep bass - just skip through the chapters. I'd be interested in what you discover.

post #60389 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Probably won't do much for me since my crossovers are at 110hz -_-
Why are your crossovers that high? Aren't you using THX certified speakers?

 

So am I but I am crossing over at 100Hz too - on the suggestion of Mark Seaton. Definite improvement to my ears by handing over more to the subs. Mark has set up a few M&K S150s and he says he invariably finds they work better at 100Hz or even 110Hz XO. Usual reasons I guess, although I am not short of amp power or headroom.

post #60390 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Selden, I would tend to agree with you there, but I had the same problem with my 4311, different microphone. It did almost the exact same thing. For that reason only I have thinking it is closer to what the pre-audyssey tone is reading from either my placement of the mic, or the pre-audyssey frequency response down low, but as I have stated, it is still pretty good (flat) before I even run audyssey. Also not to forget I have spoken with several other members that have seen the same thing happen.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/60360#post_23039136
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)