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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2017

post #60481 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

At the begininig of a movie I listen for SQ first then adjust the LPF crossover. If the voices come across as heavy, I will adjust it down. Sometimes it is set at 80 but most of the time at 100.

I don't think there are "voices" in the LFE channel. eek.gifcool.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

bsoko2,

Can you mention some of the titles where changing the LFE low pass filter value made a difference in the voices?

While voices shouldn't be mixed into the LFE channel, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it happens accidentally. In those cases, I'd be interested in trying to find out just how much was included.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raaj View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

bsoko2,

Can you mention some of the titles where changing the LFE low pass filter value made a difference in the voices?

While voices shouldn't be mixed into the LFE channel, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it happens accidentally. In those cases, I'd be interested in trying to find out just how much was included.

I have no measurements to back up this assumption, but some movies might have character voices (like evil wizards, or terrible monsters) that speak with a low rumble, where some component of that deep growl might make it into the LFE frequency range. Other than that possibility, regular human voices are seldom found that low in the frequency range.

Seems my post has everything to do with this^^^^ discussion, certainly not whether the LPF is better at 80 or 120.
post #60482 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post



Seems my post has everything to do with this^^^^ discussion, certainly not whether the LPF is better at 80 or 120.

I didn't mean to start a huge discussion on what I had posted. Just me and my old ears. Posted another issue with Pro and 11.2 calibration on the The Audyssey Pro Installer Kit thread.
post #60483 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

At the begininig of a movie I listen for SQ first then adjust the LPF crossover. If the voices come across as heavy, I will adjust it down. Sometimes it is set at 80 but most of the time at 100.

I don't think there are "voices" in the LFE channel. eek.gifcool.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

bsoko2,

Can you mention some of the titles where changing the LFE low pass filter value made a difference in the voices?

While voices shouldn't be mixed into the LFE channel, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it happens accidentally. In those cases, I'd be interested in trying to find out just how much was included.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raaj View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

bsoko2,

Can you mention some of the titles where changing the LFE low pass filter value made a difference in the voices?

While voices shouldn't be mixed into the LFE channel, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it happens accidentally. In those cases, I'd be interested in trying to find out just how much was included.

I have no measurements to back up this assumption, but some movies might have character voices (like evil wizards, or terrible monsters) that speak with a low rumble, where some component of that deep growl might make it into the LFE frequency range. Other than that possibility, regular human voices are seldom found that low in the frequency range.

Seems my post has everything to do with this^^^^ discussion, certainly not whether the LPF is better at 80 or 120.

Not really because no mixer is ever going to introduce voice content into the LFE channel. Certainly not knowingly. I did comment on your original post that Optimus Prime was an example of an exception to this, where the really deep voice effect could end up in the LFE channel (although I doubt it does) but certainly makes its way into the subs, via redirection of bass, depending of course on your chosen XO. It's easy to do a test - play Optimus Prime's voice with all other channels switched off and only the LFE channel working and see if you can hear the voice. This assumes you can turn off the individual channels which will be dependent on your setup. I don't think it's worth bothering personally and the entire topic isn't really all that important TBH. (No disrespect to Bill who first mentioned it).

post #60484 of 70909
Quote:
but certainly makes its way into the subs, via redirection of bass, depending of course on your chosen XO.

I agree this is not a large issue at all, and exactly what you said above was the only point I was attempting to get across. Quite simply the low end of the voice spectrum can possibly end up being reproduced at least partially, from your subs, not the LFE channel in particular, just the redirected bass fromthe L/R's
post #60485 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Not really because no mixer is ever going to introduce voice content into the LFE channel. Certainly not knowingly. I did comment on your original post that Optimus Prime was an example of an exception to this, where the really deep voice effect could end up in the LFE channel (although I doubt it does) but certainly makes its way into the subs, via redirection of bass, depending of course on your chosen XO. It's easy to do a test - play Optimus Prime's voice with all other channels switched off and only the LFE channel working and see if you can hear the voice. This assumes you can turn off the individual channels which will be dependent on your setup. I don't think it's worth bothering personally and the entire topic isn't really all that important TBH. (No disrespect to Bill who first mentioned it).

Opening voice over for Transformers 2 has voice content in the LFE.  Also our local NBC affiliate in Minneapolis, KARE11 local news does and it is extremely annoying.  :-)

post #60486 of 70909
Well all bets are off with tv programming...
post #60487 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Opening voice over for Transformers 2 has voice content in the LFE.  Also our local NBC affiliate in Minneapolis, KARE11 local news does and it is extremely annoying.  :-)

I don't doubt what you say, but what I doubt is that the voice through the LFE channel is intelligible!! The LFE channel by its standard in the film industry is "brick-walled" during recording to have no contents above 120 Hz. And we can make that doubly sure by setting the LPF for the LFE channel in our AVRs to 120 Hz. (Some set it lower though!)
post #60488 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Not really because no mixer is ever going to introduce voice content into the LFE channel. Certainly not knowingly. I did comment on your original post that Optimus Prime was an example of an exception to this, where the really deep voice effect could end up in the LFE channel (although I doubt it does) but certainly makes its way into the subs, via redirection of bass, depending of course on your chosen XO. It's easy to do a test - play Optimus Prime's voice with all other channels switched off and only the LFE channel working and see if you can hear the voice. This assumes you can turn off the individual channels which will be dependent on your setup. I don't think it's worth bothering personally and the entire topic isn't really all that important TBH. (No disrespect to Bill who first mentioned it).

Opening voice over for Transformers 2 has voice content in the LFE.  Also our local NBC affiliate in Minneapolis, KARE11 local news does and it is extremely annoying.  :-)

 

Yeah - like I say, there will be a few exceptions. The mixer on that movie (I think it was No2) also, IIRC, puts the Optimus Prime voice into all three front speakers too, to create that sort of 'voice of god' effect. Used sparingly and well it can be very effective. But OP's voice is a sound effect rather than a voice IYSWIM.

post #60489 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Quote:
but certainly makes its way into the subs, via redirection of bass, depending of course on your chosen XO.

I agree this is not a large issue at all, and exactly what you said above was the only point I was attempting to get across. Quite simply the low end of the voice spectrum can possibly end up being reproduced at least partially, from your subs, not the LFE channel in particular, just the redirected bass fromthe L/R's

Yes, depending on your chosen crossovers - if you are crossing over at 60Hz, no way, but if you are crossing over at 110Hz, then sure... in between, maybe. But it will be fairly unusual - if voice is coming from the subs as a normal sort of thing, something needs adjusting.

post #60490 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


I don't doubt what you say, but what I doubt is that the voice through the LFE channel is intelligible!! The LFE channel by its standard in the film industry is "brick-walled" during recording to have no contents above 120 Hz. And we can make that doubly sure by setting the LPF for the LFE channel in our AVRs to 120 Hz. (Some set it lower though!)

Agree, had to reach under mu sub and feel the woofer to be sure :)

post #60491 of 70909
On the topic of the LPF of LFE setting, I had some interesting discoveries.

First off, to see if we're all on the same page, here's my understanding of how bass management is SUPPOSED to work when properly implemented:

In a 5.1 setup for example, the 0.1 LFE channel is its own separate channel. What gets put in there only ever goes to the subs. It never gets redirected to any other channels or speakers.

As for the satellite channels, frequencies below the crossover are redirected to the subs, but the crossover settings are NOT brickwall filters, i.e. with an 80Hz crossover, the sub may begin receiving and playing frequencies as high as 120Hz (albeit at very low levels/SPL) depending on the slope of the implemented low pass filter.

Likewise, the main speakers with an 80Hz setting may still output frequencies down to 50/60Hz depending on the slope of the high pass filter.

The redirected bass is sent to the subwoofer which then receives the sum of the bass from the LFE 0.1 channel + the redirected bass from any and all of the other channels, and if room EQ is applied, it's applied to this summed output.

Are we in agreement that this is basically how bass management is supposed to work?

Also, for clarity, I'm playing Total Recall 2012 on my Oppo 93 set to output LPCM because the TrueHD track produces audio dropouts on my Oppo (and evidently, many other players too). This goes into my Onkyo 5008 with Audyssey engaged, MV at THX Reference, no DEQ or DV, Dolby Volume Off, Mains are powered by Emotiva amps with 60Hz crossovers on all satellites. Seaton Submersive HP subs.

I listened to TR 2012 over and over, switching between the 80Hz LPF setting and my default 120Hz LPF setting. Whatever I thought I heard was far more subtle to me than it evidently was to other folks. The 2 main scenes I focused on were the opening scene, which I initially viewee from the opening title, to the point where Jessica Biel wakes up Colin Farrell and they run out of the room (and there is a bass sweep at this point).

I eventually focused on the section of the opening where the description reads that there are only 2 habitable sections left in the world, Great Britain and the Colony in Australia. It then shows a graphic of The Fall running right through the center of the earth.

There is a bass sweep as the subtitles go from Great Britain to The Colony, and a bass pulse just before The Fall passes the center of the Earth. As I listened to this section over and over (the Oppo 93 has a convenient A-B loop function allowing me to select the start and end points of a scene I'd like to infinitely loop), I felt that there was a slight loss in bass with the 80Hz setting vs the 120Hz setting.

The reason I concentrated on that section was because I didn't notice much of a discernible difference in any other section of the opening scenes, including the heartbeats when they first show Colin Farrell, or the bass sweep when they run out the door.

I played the scenes I focused on over and over while switching between the 80Hz and 120Hz settings (felt like those darn experiments with Phantom Menace and stereo/localizable bass all over again). In order to focus on the bass, I shut off the amps powering my Mains. After a while, I decided to reduce/eliminate any possible variables to focus solely on the LPF settings.

As I understand it, setting the satellites to Large/Full band means that there is No bass management for those channels. In other words, with the satellites set to Large, none of the bass placed in those channels goes to the subs. With the satellite amps Off, that means any bass placed in those channels aren't played at all. The ONLY bass going to the subs is what's in the LFE channel.

Well, as it turns out, like many (the majority?) of the movie mixes out today, the vast majority of the bass is mixed into the L&R channels. Setting just the Fronts to Large and leaving the XPA-1 amps off eliminated the majority of the bass coming out of the subwoofers. What little was left behind, there was a tiny difference in the bass rumble in the GB - Colony scene (a hair more bass with the 120Hz setting), no real difference in The Fall passing through the center of the Earth scene, and the bass sweep as they run out the door is evidently only in the L&R.

The 2nd scene I focused on is in the later part of the movie, right where he starts up the hover copter where the engines kick in with that bass rumble. With the Mains set to Large, the majority of the Bass disappears from the subs. Of the little that's left, there seems to possibly be a touch more with the 120Hz setting, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Now here's the odd thing. When I set my Mains back to their default 60Hz setting (the highest I can crossover before I can localize my subs), fully expecting to no longer hear a difference in The Fall scene described above, I once again heard a difference between the 80Hz and 120Hz LPF setting. The bass pulse just before The Fall passes the center of the Earth had more oomph. This stayed the same when I turned the Mains back on. Why should it change? In theory, the LPF of LFE setting shouldn't be affected by the Mains crossover?

At this time, I'm going to leave my LPF at 120Hz, unless someone can point me to a soundtrack where I can hear a discernible improvement in MY setup with the lower LPF setting. I've only heard one multichannel music disc (Steely Dan's Aja?) that had garbage in the LFE that disappears with an 80Hz setting. Aside from that, I still haven't really found anything, although admittedly, I don't switch away from my default 120Hz setting.

So if anyone else has any suggested movie scenes where this 80Hz setting makes a discernible difference, I'd be happy to try it.


Max
post #60492 of 70909
Can i use this stand foy my aud. Mic? Or its too low? Isnt it when we do aud. We level the mic on our ear level? This should bs good?
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Quik+Lok+-+Short+Tripod+Microphone+Stand+with+Telescopic+Boom+-+Black/1557864.p?id=1218268434454&skuId=1557864&st=microphone%20stand&cp=1&lp=7
post #60493 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

Can i use this stand foy my aud. Mic? Or its too low? Isnt it when we do aud. We level the mic on our ear level? This should bs good?
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Quik+Lok+-+Short+Tripod+Microphone+Stand+with+Telescopic+Boom+-+Black/1557864.p?id=1218268434454&skuId=1557864&st=microphone%20stand&cp=1&lp=7

That should work great. I actually recommend low profile stands for Audyssey calibration and the Height adjustment on that stand is adequate, boom range of 40" is excellent.

Let us know what the quality of that stand is like. It's cheaper than the low profile stand I've been recommending.


Max
post #60494 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

That should work great. I actually recommend low profile stands for Audyssey calibration and the Height adjustment on that stand is adequate, boom range of 40" is excellent.

Let us know what the quality of that stand is like. It's cheaper than the low profile stand I've been recommending.


Max
Thanks max, want to make sure if its okay before i pull the trigger. I think i am gona buy this now. No problem as soon as i get it i will show what the stand looks like.
post #60495 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

On the topic of the LPF of LFE setting, I had some interesting discoveries.

First off, to see if we're all on the same page, here's my understanding of how bass management is SUPPOSED to work when properly implemented:

In a 5.1 setup for example, the 0.1 LFE channel is its own separate channel. What gets put in there only ever goes to the subs. It never gets redirected to any other channels or speakers.

As for the satellite channels, frequencies below the crossover are redirected to the subs, but the crossover settings are NOT brickwall filters, i.e. with an 80Hz crossover, the sub may begin receiving and playing frequencies as high as 120Hz (albeit at very low levels/SPL) depending on the slope of the implemented low pass filter.

Likewise, the main speakers with an 80Hz setting may still output frequencies down to 50/60Hz depending on the slope of the high pass filter.

The redirected bass is sent to the subwoofer which then receives the sum of the bass from the LFE 0.1 channel + the redirected bass from any and all of the other channels, and if room EQ is applied, it's applied to this summed output.

Are we in agreement that this is basically how bass management is supposed to work?

Also, for clarity, I'm playing Total Recall 2012 on my Oppo 93 set to output LPCM because the TrueHD track produces audio dropouts on my Oppo (and evidently, many other players too). This goes into my Onkyo 5008 with Audyssey engaged, MV at THX Reference, no DEQ or DV, Dolby Volume Off, Mains are powered by Emotiva amps with 60Hz crossovers on all satellites. Seaton Submersive HP subs.

I listened to TR 2012 over and over, switching between the 80Hz LPF setting and my default 120Hz LPF setting. Whatever I thought I heard was far more subtle to me than it evidently was to other folks. The 2 main scenes I focused on were the opening scene, which I initially viewee from the opening title, to the point where Jessica Biel wakes up Colin Farrell and they run out of the room (and there is a bass sweep at this point).

I eventually focused on the section of the opening where the description reads that there are only 2 habitable sections left in the world, Great Britain and the Colony in Australia. It then shows a graphic of The Fall running right through the center of the earth.

There is a bass sweep as the subtitles go from Great Britain to The Colony, and a bass pulse just before The Fall passes the center of the Earth. As I listened to this section over and over (the Oppo 93 has a convenient A-B loop function allowing me to select the start and end points of a scene I'd like to infinitely loop), I felt that there was a slight loss in bass with the 80Hz setting vs the 120Hz setting.

The reason I concentrated on that section was because I didn't notice much of a discernible difference in any other section of the opening scenes, including the heartbeats when they first show Colin Farrell, or the bass sweep when they run out the door.

I played the scenes I focused on over and over while switching between the 80Hz and 120Hz settings (felt like those darn experiments with Phantom Menace and stereo/localizable bass all over again). In order to focus on the bass, I shut off the amps powering my Mains. After a while, I decided to reduce/eliminate any possible variables to focus solely on the LPF settings.

As I understand it, setting the satellites to Large/Full band means that there is No bass management for those channels. In other words, with the satellites set to Large, none of the bass placed in those channels goes to the subs. With the satellite amps Off, that means any bass placed in those channels aren't played at all. The ONLY bass going to the subs is what's in the LFE channel.

Well, as it turns out, like many (the majority?) of the movie mixes out today, the vast majority of the bass is mixed into the L&R channels. Setting just the Fronts to Large and leaving the XPA-1 amps off eliminated the majority of the bass coming out of the subwoofers. What little was left behind, there was a tiny difference in the bass rumble in the GB - Colony scene (a hair more bass with the 120Hz setting), no real difference in The Fall passing through the center of the Earth scene, and the bass sweep as they run out the door is evidently only in the L&R.

The 2nd scene I focused on is in the later part of the movie, right where he starts up the hover copter where the engines kick in with that bass rumble. With the Mains set to Large, the majority of the Bass disappears from the subs. Of the little that's left, there seems to possibly be a touch more with the 120Hz setting, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Now here's the odd thing. When I set my Mains back to their default 60Hz setting (the highest I can crossover before I can localize my subs), fully expecting to no longer hear a difference in The Fall scene described above, I once again heard a difference between the 80Hz and 120Hz LPF setting. The bass pulse just before The Fall passes the center of the Earth had more oomph. This stayed the same when I turned the Mains back on. Why should it change? In theory, the LPF of LFE setting shouldn't be affected by the Mains crossover?

At this time, I'm going to leave my LPF at 120Hz, unless someone can point me to a soundtrack where I can hear a discernible improvement in MY setup with the lower LPF setting. I've only heard one multichannel music disc (Steely Dan's Aja?) that had garbage in the LFE that disappears with an 80Hz setting. Aside from that, I still haven't really found anything, although admittedly, I don't switch away from my default 120Hz setting.

So if anyone else has any suggested movie scenes where this 80Hz setting makes a discernible difference, I'd be happy to try it.


Max

At the crossover point, both the mains and the sub will be down either three or six dB from full volume so they add up correctly. Different crossover topologies do it differently. It's pretty easy to figure out where the slope starts for the low pass because receivers at least almost universally low pass at 24 dB per octave. Double or half frequency is an octave. 40, 50 and 60 Hz are typical third octave (ish) bands. if your crossover point is 80 Hz, the sub is getting, let's assume minus six dB at 80 Hz and minus 14 dB at 100 Hz (a third of 24 plus the six already accounted for) and minus 22 dB at 120 Hz. These levels would be audible (roughly half andone fourth as loud as the mains) if the mains weren't masking them playing the identical content at 14 to 22 dB higher.

I got lost in your setup for the question. I think you said there was more oomp with a 120 Hz LPF whether the mains were full range or crossed at 60. That sounds right to me. If there's enough 80 to 120 Hz info in the LFE channel to make a difference when you low pass at 80 Hz, that remains true regardless of how your mains are set.

Also, FWIW, a long time ago (in 'net years) somebody whose knowledge I trusted said that a receiver MIGHT actually mix the LFE channel into the front left and right if there is no sub attached.
post #60496 of 70909
What I said was, I heard a difference in that one scene of the graphic showing The Fall passing through the center of the Earth, with the 120Hz LPF setting having a little more oomph, than the 80Hz setting, but ONLY when my Mains were set to their usual 60Hz crossover. I didn't hear any real difference when the Mains were set to large and the amps to the Mains turned off (for both examples).

If there's a difference, it should have been audible with the Mains set to Large, since the difference SHOULD have been in the LFE track, but I didn't hear a difference then. If it wasn't in the LFE track, then where did the difference between the 80Hz and 120Hz LPF of LFE setting appear from when I set the Mains to a 60Hz crossover?


Max
post #60497 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

On the topic of the LPF of LFE setting, I had some interesting discoveries.

 

 

Great post Max! The differences are indeed subtle, but noticeable which is what you and I both found. I am wondering if any differences between your impression and mine is a result of the difference in XOs we use - I use 100Hz to my Submersives as opposed to your 60Hz. I didn't try setting my speakers to Large and killing the main amps to just hear the LFE channel, so it is possible I guess that my higher XO is having some sort of influence, but I can't think what it could be (wrt to the LFE channel). I am sending more content to my Submersives than you are and I am wondering if that is influencing my results?  

 

I have switched between 80Hz and 120Hz LPF so many times, trying to hear these differences on different content that I have finally settled on a LPF of 100Hz - compromise!! :)  One other movie where I can hear clear differences, albeit subtle, is Taken - the brothel scene where Mills tries to find his daughter. If you have that movie, pay special attention to the shot where Mills has a flashback to his daughter wearing the blue jacket he has just found in the brothel, and the gunshots a few moments later when Mills is discovered, then the explosion when the oil drums get knocked over and the shot where the cars roll down the hill. On all those bits I can hear clear differences between 80Hz and 120Hz - but TBH neither one or the other makes much difference and I doubt if many people would care which LPF they used.

post #60498 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I bet he adjusts a single malt with water. eek.gif

Water is not necessarily the enemy (see Whisky Magazine and other expert opinions on adding water), but I get your point. cool.gif

JP
post #60499 of 70909
Well that was fun. All my source equipment is rack mounted in the garage with no access from inside the house. A couple of days ago I made up and snaked a 1/8 mono extension for the Audyssey mic. So Friday in the middle of a snow/rain storm I decided to run Audyssey. Damn, I have to run out to the garage and plug it in to the AVR. Back into the house where I'm presented with the Audyssey start screen. Back into the house and my Crestron touch screen where I tap the enter button to start. Nothing na-da. Go back out to the garage and point the factory remote at the AVR. Long story short, Audyssey only seems to work with the provided remote and not via RS-232 commands. All other AVR funtions work via RS-232 but Audyssey. I got soaked running back and forth to the garage............but it works.
post #60500 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by 9suffix View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I bet he adjusts a single malt with water. eek.gif

Water is not necessarily the enemy (see Whisky Magazine and other expert opinions on adding water), but I get your point. cool.gif

JP

 

A few drops, literally, of Malvern Spring Water may (some say should) be added to a large measure of a good malt, such as my favourite, Lagavulin or Laphroaig and the water brings out the bouquet and enhances the flavour a little. Heaven. Even Audyssey cannot enhance your system as well as a few drams of Lagavulin IME :)

post #60501 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by stefuel View Post

Well that was fun. All my source equipment is rack mounted in the garage with no access from inside the house. A couple of days ago I made up and snaked a 1/8 mono extension for the Audyssey mic. So Friday in the middle of a snow/rain storm I decided to run Audyssey. Damn, I have to run out to the garage and plug it in to the AVR. Back into the house where I'm presented with the Audyssey start screen. Back into the house and my Crestron touch screen where I tap the enter button to start. Nothing na-da. Go back out to the garage and point the factory remote at the AVR. Long story short, Audyssey only seems to work with the provided remote and not via RS-232 commands. All other AVR funtions work via RS-232 but Audyssey. I got soaked running back and forth to the garage............but it works.

 

:) I share your pain to a small extent - all my hardware is in a closet outside the HT, so I have to all this to-and-froing too, but at least I don't get wet. Fortunately, I use the poor-man's Creston - a Harmony 1100 in wireless mode so that works from inside the HT. Weird that everything except Audyssey works via RS232. Might be worth getting hold of a cheap Harmony and wireless extender and use that instead,  just for Audyssey, if you plan on making a habit of this :)  So how did it all sound afterwards anyway?

post #60502 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

smile.gif I share your pain to a small extent - all my hardware is in a closet outside the HT, so I have to all this to-and-froing too, but at least I don't get wet. Fortunately, I use the poor-man's Creston - a Harmony 1100 in wireless mode so that works from inside the HT. Weird that everything except Audyssey works via RS232. Might be worth getting hold of a cheap Harmony and wireless extender and use that instead,  just for Audyssey, if you plan on making a habit of this smile.gif  So how did it all sound afterwards anyway?

I had made all the available corrections via the AVR's OSD and set sound levels with my SPL meter. It sounded just OK after that. However, after running Audyssey, it sounded like a whole different room. I can't wait to get my subs plate amplifier replaced and try again. It's a Infinity Servo sub with a torched circuit board. I'm looking for a after market board to replace it with.
post #60503 of 70909
I'm hoping somebody can help me out here.

I just got a refurbished Denon 1712 to replace my near-death Onkyo 716. I ran Audyssey and it set my subwoofer trim to -12, however when I check levels using a db meter and the internal test tones, the subwoofer is more than 5 dbs lower than the speakers. Compared to my Onkyo, I'm getting very little bass. And if I understand correctly, isn't Audyssey trying to turn it down even more by maxing out the trim?
post #60504 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post

I'm hoping somebody can help me out here.

I just got a refurbished Denon 1712 to replace my near-death Onkyo 716. I ran Audyssey and it set my subwoofer trim to -12, however when I check levels using a db meter and the internal test tones, the subwoofer is more than 5 dbs lower than the speakers. Compared to my Onkyo, I'm getting very little bass. And if I understand correctly, isn't Audyssey trying to turn it down even more by maxing out the trim?

Audyssey is trying to set all your speakers (including your subwoofer) to play at 75db at reference level. You need to reduce the gain (volume) on your sub - perhaps to 9 or 10AM and then rerun Audyssey until the sub woofer trim level is below -12, say in the -6 to 0 range. Much more info available here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=21782993&postcount=51803
post #60505 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

Audyssey is trying to set all your speakers (including your subwoofer) to play at 75db at reference level. You need to reduce the gain (volume) on your sub - perhaps to 9 or 10AM and then rerun Audyssey until the sub woofer trim level is below -12, say in the -6 to 0 range. Much more info available here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=21782993&postcount=51803

Thanks... I get that. But what I don't get is that my speakers are all in the -3 or -4 range and my db meter reads 73 dbs. My sub is at -12 and my db meter reads 68 dbs. Why isn't audyssey setting the sub trim around -8 or -9 so all speakers are at 73 dbs?

I used Audyssey on my Onkyo too and with the same sub settings (volume 50% on the sub) it set the trim to -5.
post #60506 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

Audyssey is trying to set all your speakers (including your subwoofer) to play at 75db at reference level. You need to reduce the gain (volume) on your sub - perhaps to 9 or 10AM and then rerun Audyssey until the sub woofer trim level is below -12, say in the -6 to 0 range. Much more info available here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=21782993&postcount=51803

Thanks... I get that. But what I don't get is that my speakers are all in the -3 or -4 range and my db meter reads 73 dbs. My sub is at -12 and my db meter reads 68 dbs. Why isn't audyssey setting the sub trim around -8 or -9 so all speakers are at 73 dbs?

I used Audyssey on my Onkyo too and with the same sub settings (volume 50% on the sub) it set the trim to -5.

You SPL meter isn't very accurate for the LF region.  Audyssey uses a complex method to determine the SPL of the sub before it runs the calibration (does your Audyssey version set the SPL of the sub before it lets you continue with the cal?) and this is going to be much more accurate than the typical inexpensive SPL meter most people have. 

 

ggasantafe has given you the correct initial advice, which is to turn down the gain on the sub ti get the trim away from the maxed out setting.  The FAQ has plenty of info to help you set up subs, but read this section for details of maxed out speakers/subs:

 

e)6.   What do I do if my trim levels are at the limits of their adjustment ('maxed out')?

 

Once you have the subs set properly wrt to the trims, we can do more troubleshooting if needed. If your unit has Dynamic EQ you should also enable that. BTW, what listening levels do you generally listen at - the setting on the MV I mean?

 

You may also find this FAQ answer helpful:

 

f)5.    Since I ran Audyssey everything sounds great - but where has my bass gone?

post #60507 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post

Thanks... I get that. But what I don't get is that my speakers are all in the -3 or -4 range and my db meter reads 73 dbs. My sub is at -12 and my db meter reads 68 dbs. Why isn't audyssey setting the sub trim around -8 or -9 so all speakers are at 73 dbs?

I used Audyssey on my Onkyo too and with the same sub settings (volume 50% on the sub) it set the trim to -5.

Well - there are a number of issues to consider. Your Onkyo (616? I don't believe Onkyo released a 716 version) only featured Audyssey 2EQ which does not set any EQ filters for your subwoofer, only time domain/distance calculations. Your Denon 1712 includes Audyssey XT which provides significantly more sub EQ. Make sure that you utilize all 6 Audyssey microphone positions & don't get too hung up on the relativity of the individual speaker settings. You do need to lower the gain/volume setting on your subwoofer and rerun Audyssey. The Audyssey microphones are considered more accurate and reliable then most SPL meters, but you're welcome to trust & verify, once you lower the volume/gain on your sub woofer and rerun Audyssey.

The ever reliable KBarnes has already responded - trust (no need to verify) his advice and let us know how everything sounds once you rerun Audyssey
post #60508 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

Audyssey is trying to set all your speakers (including your subwoofer) to play at 75db at reference level. You need to reduce the gain (volume) on your sub - perhaps to 9 or 10AM and then rerun Audyssey until the sub woofer trim level is below -12, say in the -6 to 0 range. Much more info available here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=21782993&postcount=51803

Thanks... I get that. But what I don't get is that my speakers are all in the -3 or -4 range and my db meter reads 73 dbs. My sub is at -12 and my db meter reads 68 dbs. Why isn't audyssey setting the sub trim around -8 or -9 so all speakers are at 73 dbs?

I used Audyssey on my Onkyo too and with the same sub settings (volume 50% on the sub) it set the trim to -5.

 

Woody - I don't think it is reliable to compare Denons and Onkyos in this way. Let's go through the normal troubleshooting procedure to see if we can get to where you want to be. Recalibrate with the sub gain turned down - aim for a trim level of anything between -5dB and + 3.5dB. Then come back and we can take it from there.

post #60509 of 70909
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post

Thanks... I get that. But what I don't get is that my speakers are all in the -3 or -4 range and my db meter reads 73 dbs. My sub is at -12 and my db meter reads 68 dbs. Why isn't audyssey setting the sub trim around -8 or -9 so all speakers are at 73 dbs?

I used Audyssey on my Onkyo too and with the same sub settings (volume 50% on the sub) it set the trim to -5.

Well - there are a number of issues to consider. Your Onkyo (616? I don't believe Onkyo released a 716 version) only featured Audyssey 2EQ which does not set any EQ filters for your subwoofer, only time domain/distance calculations. Your Denon 1712 includes Audyssey XT which provides significantly more sub EQ. Make sure that you utilize all 6 Audyssey microphone positions & don't get too hung up on the relativity of the individual speaker settings. You do need to lower the gain/volume setting on your subwoofer and rerun Audyssey. The Audyssey microphones are considered more accurate and reliable then most SPL meters, but you're welcome to trust & verify, once you lower the volume/gain on your sub woofer and rerun Audyssey.

 

+1

post #60510 of 70909
Thanks guys! I really appreciate it!

I will turn down the sub volume and rerun audyssey. I'll post back in a bit.

And I goofed on the onkyo model number... It was a 706.
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