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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2036

post #61051 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

After running aud. My crossover sets like thie, fronts 40hz, center 60hz and surrounds 60hz. Do i still need to tweak or just leave it what aud. Set?

You may set all your speakers to "Small" now and raise the c/os to 80 Hz. Keep it like that for a couple of days, maybe a week or two till you get used to the overall SQ and have a desire to do more tweak or not. In the meantime, you may find an excellent blog in my sig line explaining a bit more on what Large vs. Small is all about.

 

If he has XOs set then his speakers are already set to 'small'.

post #61052 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

After running aud. My crossover sets like thie, fronts 40hz, center 60hz and surrounds 60hz. Do i still need to tweak or just leave it what aud. Set?

 

There's a whole section of the FAQ on crossovers, but this answer is probably the most relevant to your question:

 

c)4.   Is it OK to change the Crossovers from Audyssey's recommendation?

post #61053 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If he has XOs set then his speakers are already set to 'small'.

yes, after the aud, my fronts sets to full range, center large and surrounds small, then when i changed them to small it gives me that crossovers fronts 40hz center 60hz and surrounds 60hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There's a whole section of the FAQ on crossovers, but this answer is probably the most relevant to your question:

c)4.   Is it OK to change the Crossovers from Audyssey's recommendation?

ok i will try to look on this, maybe i will just set all of them to 80hz as recommended?
post #61054 of 70896
Quick sub amp question. My original plate amp died a burning death. It had L and R line ins that I used along with a Y cable adapter. With the replacement amp I have a choice of "line ins" or sub in. I think the "sub in" bypasses all the adjustments on the amp and lets the pre-pro or AVR make all the adjustments??? Which should I use? I don't have a manual for this Klipsch plate amp.
post #61055 of 70896
Hello , I finally got around to re-running Audyssey after hooking up my new KEF LS50 and SVS PB12-NSD. N Results front 60hz,center 60hz, surround 120hz. LFE 120hz. Does this sound like a good setting? On the SVS set guid they suggest 80hz( not sure if they mean every should be set to 80hz or the just the sub) TIA.
post #61056 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by stefuel View Post

Quick sub amp question. My original plate amp died a burning death. It had L and R line ins that I used along with a Y cable adapter. With the replacement amp I have a choice of "line ins" or sub in. I think the "sub in" bypasses all the adjustments on the amp and lets the pre-pro or AVR make all the adjustments??? Which should I use? I don't have a manual for this Klipsch plate amp.

 

It probably doesn't matter so long as you make sure the sub controls are set correctly - you want the AVR to handle everything as you suggest:

 

f)3.    How do I set the controls on my subwoofer before running MultEQ?

post #61057 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by gelly View Post

Hello , I finally got around to re-running Audyssey after hooking up my new KEF LS50 and SVS PB12-NSD. N Results front 60hz,center 60hz, surround 120hz. LFE 120hz. Does this sound like a good setting? On the SVS set guid they suggest 80hz( not sure if they mean every should be set to 80hz or the just the sub) TIA.
That looks fine.

It is commonly recommended here that you raise those 3 front speakers to 80 but leave the surrounds alone. More on raising crossovers is in the Setup Guide linked in his Keith's sig just above, should you want to go into more detail. More on sub settings is in the exact link Keith just gave above.
post #61058 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by gelly View Post

Hello , I finally got around to re-running Audyssey after hooking up my new KEF LS50 and SVS PB12-NSD. N Results front 60hz,center 60hz, surround 120hz. LFE 120hz. Does this sound like a good setting? On the SVS set guid they suggest 80hz( not sure if they mean every should be set to 80hz or the just the sub) TIA.

 

 

The results look fine. This may help with any decision to change the XOs:

 

c)2.   Why do I often see advice to raise the Crossovers to 80Hz?

post #61059 of 70896
Thanks. I looked at those links, and i dont see a recommendation for where to set the sub. I had set the sub to SVS recommendations prior to running Audyssey, and came back LFE 120hz. I'm not sure if i should lower it to 80hz. The bass sonds a bit light compared to pre Audyssey.
post #61060 of 70896
Don't touch the sub controls except for volume. They are (at the most) superfluous for what you want to do.
You would never touch the LFE bandwidth settings as this dedicated channel is supposed to always cover dedicated signal content up to 120 Hz, but you may set the AVRs crossover individually for the main bass content of your speakers being routed to the sub additionally. This will only affect the routing of the speakers bass going to the sub through the AVR and has nothing to do with LFE channel. Thus you would set the subs crossover settings (back panel of the sub) either to LFE, if such a setting exists, or max. frequency available once and never touch them again - ever.
If possible deactivate those controls on your sub altogether as the LFE setting usually does. The processor / AVR will do all the decoding needed to sent the LFE content to the sub(s) and additionally provide those bass areas below the set crossover frequency for your other speakers if set to "small". The subs setting in this context are not needed at all and should never be used except for needed gain / volume settings.
One purpose of the sub is to handle dedicated LFE content (.1 channel) which has been mixed explicitly for the LFE channel by the sound engineers and the second purpose of the sub(s) is - in combination with the small or large setting of the speakers by the AVR - routing that part of the main speakers bass content below the set crossover frequency (AVR) and in addition to the LFE channel to the sub(s), thus giving additional freedom for placing the mains and the sub because your subs can now be independently placed from the rest of you speakers.
Edited by gurkey - 3/25/13 at 7:57am
post #61061 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by gelly View Post

Thanks. I looked at those links, and i dont see a recommendation for where to set the sub. I had set the sub to SVS recommendations prior to running Audyssey, and came back LFE 120hz. I'm not sure if i should lower it to 80hz. The bass sonds a bit light compared to pre Audyssey.

 

Try:

 

c)5.   What is the LPF of LFE and what should it be set to?

 

And:

 

f)5.    Since I ran Audyssey everything sounds great - but where has my bass gone?

post #61062 of 70896
Hi Everyone,

My father got a Denon 1913 receiver with MultiEQ and he's running a 3.1 setup with 3 Energy RVS Speakers and an Energy ES12 subwoofer. I went over to check out the setup after he had run 3 point Audyssey using his camera Tripod mic pointing up and noticed the offset levels on the receiver as follows:
Speakers -4db
Subwoofer -12db
Speaker Crossover 40hz.
Subwoofer Crossover 120hz
Distances seemed accurate

As you can see the sub was way to boomy to my ears and found out that the Denon receiver max offset decrease is -12db. His subwoofer volume was 5 (0to10), LP Filter 56 (0to100), Bass EQ -2 (-3to3), Phase 40 (0-180). Knowing the FAQ's recommendations I had him change the sub to Volume 3, LP Filter 100, Bass EQ 0, Phase 0 and re-run Audyssey. The Sub still came back at -12db and he said it was even worse and he had to go tweak the sub settings dials on the unit just to make it listenable until I could come help. I'm going to go over on Thursday for lunch and take a look, but other than setting the volume to 0 (which I've read some aren't a fan of due to possible distortion) is there something I'm missing? I'll get distance measurements when im over there but I'm kind of amazed that 30% volume is still listing (and sounding) like -12db. Sub is in a corner but is at least 3 inches from one wall and a good foot from the other.

Any help appreciated. This thread has such great information that i've used countless times in the past, but this one has me stumped.
Edited by ChrisHman - 3/25/13 at 1:20pm
post #61063 of 70896
For those older Energy subwoofers be aware that there are two different inputs, one of which is a "direct" input which bypasses the sub's built in volume and crossover circuitry. If he is using this input that might be why adjusting the volume knob didn't do anything.

To confirm, play the standard test tone for the subwoofer from the receiver's Speaker Config menu (Channel Levels) and twiddle the volume knob. If the volume doesn't change, he is using the direct input and you should switch to the other input. Others have reported issues with these subs were the "fixed" volume level of the direct input was too loud for Audyssey to calibrate.

Then, just lower the volume to the point where the sub doesn't get a -12 volume reading. Even if it's very low (e.g. 1-2 on the volume dial) it's not a problem. Obviously, as you know already, leave the other controls zeroed out and the sub's crossover maxed out to 100Hz.

After Audyssey if he wants more "thump" for a "house curve" he can use the EQ control which adds a little hump in the mid bass for more slam. But don't do it before Audyssey or the receiver will try to calibrate the boost out to flatten the response.
post #61064 of 70896
The maximum compensation that Audyssey can apply is plus/minus 12db. When your father ran the audyssey setup, the woofer volume was set too loud....turn down the volume on the sub-woofer and run the setup again.. Also, manually override the audyssey settings to make the fronts and centers "small" speakers" and set their crossovers to 80hz. Let the sub do the heavy lifting..
post #61065 of 70896
If he is still hitting -12db, the gain needs to come down until he gets close to 0, and then tweak a couple points in either direction on the receiver to taste.

Set the other settings to default and let Audyssey correct them after he gets the volume under control.
post #61066 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by goros View Post

If he is still hitting -12db, the gain needs to come down until he gets close to 0, and then tweak a couple points in either direction on the receiver to taste.

Set the other settings to default and let Audyssey correct them after he gets the volume under control.

And if nothing else works, a 12 dB attenuator pad can be inserted between AVR subwoofer RCA pre-out and sub's plate-amp RCA in.
post #61067 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisHman View Post

Hi Everyone,

My father got a Denon 1913 receiver with MultiEQ and he's running a 3.1 setup with 3 Energy RVS Speakers and an Energy ES12 subwoofer. I went over to check out the setup after he had run 3 point Audyssey using his camera Tripod mic pointing up and noticed the offset levels on the receiver as follows:
Speakers -4db
Subwoofer -12db
Speaker Crossover 40hz.
Subwoofer Crossover 120hz
Distances seemed accurate

As you can see the sub was way to boomy to my ears and found out that the Denon receiver max offset decrease is -12db. His subwoofer volume was 5 (0to10), LP Filter 56 (0to100), Bass EQ -2 (-3to3), Phase 40 (0-180). Knowing the FAQ's recommendations I had him change the sub to Volume 3, LP Filter 100, Bass EQ 0, Phase 0 and re-run Audyssey. The Sub still came back at -12db and he said it was even worse and he had to go tweak the sub settings dials on the unit just to make it listenable until I could come help. I'm going to go over on Thursday for lunch and take a look, but other than setting the volume to 0 (which I've read some aren't a fan of due to possible distortion) is there something I'm missing? I'll get distance measurements when im over there but I'm kind of amazed that 30% volume is still listing (and sounding) like -12db. Sub is in a corner but is at least 3 inches from one wall and a good foot from the other.

Any help appreciated. This thread has such great information that i've used countless times in the past, but this one has me stumped.

 

Batpig has given you excellent advice. I just wanted to comment on the sub 'volume' control setting to make it clear what it is and how it works. It isn't a 'volume' control - it is a gain control. This means that it acts like an input attenuator. No matter how 'low' you have it set the sub can still deliver all of its normal power - it just does it with a smaller input. So don't be worried about setting the gain control low. But the best advice is what Batpig said - bypass all the sub settings and then re-run Audyssey. Once Audyssey has run, check the trims again and also make sure the speakers are set to 'small' (or a crossover is engaged - same thing). You may wish to raise (but never lower) the crossovers to 80Hz if they have been set lower than that (to let the subs do their job - the heavy lifting for the bass frequencies).

 

You may care to read this FAQ answer for more background:

 

f)3.    How do I set the controls on my subwoofer before running MultEQ?

post #61068 of 70896
Well he had the volume on 3 (out of 10) when he re-ran the setup using the sub settings set to FAQ standards, and it still came out to -12db. I realize I should be setting crossover to 80hz and speakers to small (they were set to small) after its all done, but if the levels are at -12db all that is really irrelevant. I'd have to get it to at least -5 before I really can move on. I will try changing the volume knob from 3 to 0 and hope for the best.

From what I remember the rear of the sub just had what appeared to be a red and white RCA in and no other inputs. He's using a y cable into the sub. Neither Red nor White was marked as direct, but the point earlier about the test tone and adjusting volume control is a good one, and I will try it. Is it possible one of the RCA inputs is direct and just not labeled? Sub is from 1998, so sadly manuals are difficult to come by in my googling.

Edit: thanks for the correction on Volume vs Gain. That makes sense and I now feel comfortable putting it at the lowest possible and see what it does.
Edited by ChrisHman - 3/25/13 at 2:46pm
post #61069 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisHman View Post

Well he had the volume on 3 (out of 10) when he re-ran the setup using the sub settings set to FAQ standards, and it still came out to -12db. I realize I should be setting crossover to 80hz and speakers to small (they were set to small) after its all done, but if the levels are at -12db all that is really irrelevant. I'd have to get it to at least -5 before I really can move on. I will try changing the volume knob from 3 to 0 and hope for the best.

From what I remember the rear of the sub just had what appeared to be a red and white RCA in and no other inputs. He's using a y cable into the sub. Neither Red nor White was marked as direct, but the point earlier about the test tone and adjusting volume control is a good one, and I will try it. Is it possible one of the RCA inputs is direct and just not labeled? Sub is from 1998, so sadly manuals are difficult to come by in my googling.

Edit: thanks for the correction on Volume vs Gain. That makes sense and I now feel comfortable putting it at the lowest possible and see what it does.

 

Yes - IDK what the increments are on the dial on your sub, but knocking it down two or three 'marks' could drop it by several dB, especially if the gain control is non-linear. As I say, there is no downside to doing this.

 

Many people are confused with what a gain control on a sub actually does and fear that setting it low somehow 'neuters' their sub, but that isn't how it works. I suspect this confusion has led many people to set their gain control too high, resulting in a less than desirable trim setting.

 

If the sub has any controls at all, follow the advice in the FAQ  (f3) for setting them prior to running Audyssey and you should be OK.

post #61070 of 70896
ChrisHman -- here is the manual for the ES-12 subwoofer:

Energy ES-12 & ES-12XL subwoofer-manual.pdf 685k .pdf file
post #61071 of 70896
Thanks KBarnes yes all sub controls were set to FAQ Specifications. Will put Volumne (gain) at 0 and report back.

Thank you so much for the manual Batpig! I am having my dad take a picture of the back of his Sub tonight to make sure it matches.

I appreciate everyone's help and advice. Will report back Thursday with how it all goes!
post #61072 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisHman View Post

Thanks KBarnes yes all sub controls were set to FAQ Specifications. Will put Volumne (gain) at 0 and report back.

Thank you so much for the manual Batpig! I am having my dad take a picture of the back of his Sub tonight to make sure it matches.

I appreciate everyone's help and advice. Will report back Thursday with how it all goes!
Sub gain at 0 may not work. Try 1 or 2.


Max
post #61073 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Batpig has given you excellent advice. I just wanted to comment on the sub 'volume' control setting to make it clear what it is and how it works. It isn't a 'volume' control - it is a gain control. This means that it acts like an input attenuator. No matter how 'low' you have it set the sub can still deliver all of its normal power - it just does it with a smaller input.

This is not exactly correct information Keith! Think about it this way please: "normal power" (as you say), or better to call it "reference level" will be delivered by the sub in any case after auto-setup, i.e. if you turn down the knob on the sub to "low", Audyssey will raise the sub channel trim in the AVR, and if you turn up the knob on the sub, Audyssey will turn down the trim in the AVR, respectively, as long as it does not reach a negative max. which at the moment is what ChrisHman is experiencing. wink.gif

So, as you see, it is not done with a "smaller input" coz if Audyssey wouldn't "counter balance " the sub gain setting reference level could never be achived!cool.gif
Edited by mogorf - 3/25/13 at 4:48pm
post #61074 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Sub gain at 0 may not work. Try 1 or 2.


Max

+1 Max, 0 may mean infinite attenuation on the sub input side. wink.gif
post #61075 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That would be terrific!

Mr Barnes, I have started the thread, here is the link to the construction of my Music Room:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1465163/my-a-v-room

I welcome all questions and criticisms smile.gif
post #61076 of 70896
Well my Dad sent me a snap shot of the Energy sub and I was wrong (pic attached). No y cable, just a single cable running into the Sub Input which according to the manual is the correct one. The other input is the one that according to the manual ignores the subwoofer controls so I don't think that is what's causing it. So in theory I'm getting -12db volume receiver sub offset based on it being at 3 on the sub Volume knob. Will put it on 1 on Thursday and let you know how it turns out!
post #61077 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Batpig has given you excellent advice. I just wanted to comment on the sub 'volume' control setting to make it clear what it is and how it works. It isn't a 'volume' control - it is a gain control. This means that it acts like an input attenuator. No matter how 'low' you have it set the sub can still deliver all of its normal power - it just does it with a smaller input.

This is not exactly correct information Keith! Think about it this way please: "normal power" (as you say), or better to call it "reference level" will be delivered by the sub in any case after auto-setup, i.e. if you turn down the knob on the sub to "low", Audyssey will raise the sub channel trim in the AVR, and if you turn up the knob on the sub, Audyssey will turn down the trim in the AVR, respectively, as long as it does not reach a negative max. which at the moment is what ChrisHman is experiencing. wink.gif

So, as you see, it is not done with a "smaller input" coz if Audyssey wouldn't "counter balance " the sub gain setting reference level could never be achived!cool.gif

 

It is exactly correct information Feri but you are conflating what I typed with something else. I am referring to the way the gain control works - no matter where a gain control is set, a sub will deliver its full rated power. It is a gain control not a volume control. If it set low, then the sub delivers its rated power from a smaller input that is all. Think of it as an 'input attenuation control'.

 

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue you raise. Obviously, the sub does not deliver its full rated power at all times! And yes, I am aware of how the trim levels and the sub gain control interact.

 

EDIT: I am not getting into another 6 page pointless argument with you about this, so you believe what you wish and I will do the same.

post #61078 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digione View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

That would be terrific!

Mr Barnes, I have started the thread, here is the link to the construction of my Music Room:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1465163/my-a-v-room

I welcome all questions and criticisms smile.gif

 

Excellent - thanks for letting me know. I shall have a look...

post #61079 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by gelly View PostHello , I finally got around to re-running Audyssey after hooking up my new KEF LS50 and SVS PB12-NSD. N Results front 60hz,center 60hz, surround 120hz. LFE 120hz. Does this sound like a good setting? On the SVS set guid they suggest 80hz( not sure if they mean every should be set to 80hz or the just the sub) TIA.

I cross over the LS50 at 80Hz it makes them so much cleaner

post #61080 of 70896
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

If it set low, then the sub delivers its rated power from a smaller input that is all. Think of it as an 'input attenuation control'.

I think perhaps the problem is that you're using either "low" or "smaller" in an unexpected way.

The way I'd describe it is that when the sub's gain control pot is turned to a "low" setting (e.g. 2 on a knob labelled 1-10) the sub's input attenuation is increased. As a result, the receiver (or pre/pro) has to provide a higher output voltage in order to provide the calibrated sound level at the listener's position. When the pot is at a higher level (e.g. 8), a low output voltage can produce that same sound level. This is why a speaker's trim level increases from -12 to nearer 0 as one turns down that speaker's "volume" control.
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