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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2040

post #61171 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post

Thanks for all the replies. The issue with Audyssey as it stands is that there isn't enough trim to allow for proper adjustment of high efficiency speakers. That's why many owners of speakers like JTRs have to buy attenuators.

Like I said to bsoko, that "issue" has absolutely nothing to do with Audyssey. It's not something that would be "fixed" in a "better" version of Audyssey because it's not an Audyssey issue. It has to do with how much room for trim adjustment the AVR manufacturer allows.
post #61172 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post


Brad,

I edited one of Roger's diagrams to show what I meant:



If you imagine a line between the two height speakers, you'll notice that this placement will result in overhead imaging (as opposed to more common recommendations for height placement, above the mains, which results in a taller soundstage). No need to follow the diagram to the degree, just giving you a rough idea of what I was suggesting.

 

This placement of the heights would place them directly above my wides.  Is that good?  My heights are currently ~45 degrees, which I think is what Audyssey recommends.

post #61173 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Where, on a scale of 1-10, do you place it as an 'improvement' in the 'height effect'?
Easier for me to describe the effect than quantify it with an arbitrary number. But, since you asked, I'd give it a 7 out of 10 (for what that's worth). One of the members of our local home theatre group has his height speakers arranged that way and it makes for a nice bubble of sound up front, keeping it consistent with the bubble he gets in the rear hemisphere due to his elevated surround speakers. Personally, I like this arrangement more when listening to 2-channel music in surround than when playing typical multi-channel movies.
post #61174 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

This placement of the heights would place them directly above my wides.  Is that good?
It isn't bad. At this point there are a negligible number of titles with encoded height channels (only 3 Blu-rays), so there is no industry standard for height speaker placement.

The diagram I posted didn't have wides in mind. In the Dolby Atmos thread I was describing some recent research by Sean Olive at Harman, and Roger diagrammed the description. The heights are angularly separated from nearby speakers, to make their contributions more distinct. But if you add wides below them, it won't kill the effect, since both pairs of speakeers will be getting different content.

If you don't want to stack speakers (angularly, not physically), then the heights can be placed at an angle between the wides and sides or between the fronts and wides (which you've already done).
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

My heights are currently ~45 degrees, which I think is what Audyssey recommends.
Right, that's the placement they recommend for simulating proscenium reflections that DSX generates. Will probably work well for PLIIz and Neo:X heights.
post #61175 of 70906

Thanks for the feedback, Sanjay.  I really should spend time dong some critical listening, assessing PLIIz, NEO:x, and DSX to see which is most pleasing in my listening room.  Do you have, or could you point me in the direction of, any recordings (music or cinema) that would help me in the assessment?

post #61176 of 70906
Jerry,

To hear the difference between PLIIz, Neo:X and DSX, I always recommend the opening few seconds of the movie 'Cliffhanger'. Make sure you first listen to it in PLIIx, so you can hear the intended movement of the helicopter sound effect before engaging height & wide processing. If your player has an A-B repeat function, it helps to put those 15 seconds in a loop.

If you have Neo:X, you can also try one of three titles encoded in that format: 'Step Up Revolution', 'Expendables 2', or 'Dredd' (the latter being a fave). Unfortunately, rental versions only have a DD 5.1 soundtrack.
post #61177 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

This one is just for you, Joe smile.gif

Not Joe, but you've DONE it! 10,001 as of this writing. Congratulations!

I figure about 3K of that is arguing with Feri.....

Also, if you keep up your current rate of 623 posts in the last 30 days, you'll break 20K in about 16 months. You can beat that by matching your 7-day count of 151, which takes you to a mere 463 days, or a little over 15 months. Get busy...biggrin.gif

 

LOL.. Thanks Stuart. I think I have had more time on my hands lately as I am on a break from measuring!  

post #61178 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


Yawn

I can fully understand that you need to sleep on it Keith! smile.gif

Congrats to +10k! smile.gif

 

Thanks Feri :)

post #61179 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Sorry, Feri, kbarnes brain is better trained to think "as an engineer" smile.gif Looking back to the topic of compression biggrin.gif
It is simple. If you look at the sub as a black box that has input (IN), the knob (or attenuator, the X in 0...1 usually), and the speaker that creates sound pressure in the OUT... Then what is inside can be composed as follows OUT = IN * X * 3 * 30 = IN * X * 90, this means you change the gain of whole structure, or the sensitivity (of the subwoofer as a black box) when changing the gain of attenuator (the X) wink.gif Think as an engineer! And the knob can be on any stage inside the sub, it could be even something else than attenuator. Use right level of abstraction, we are not talking about internals of the sub rolleyes.gif

The gain of attenuator? Igor, what kind of hogwash is that?eek.gifsmile.gif In the above block diagram X = 1, it simply means: 3x is three times and 30x means 30 times. Don't over think a simple example, please! smile.gif

 

I understood what Igor meant by "gain of attenuator" although it is a clumsy phrase (but can be excused in someone for whom English is a foreign language). I believe he just means when changing the gain, using the attenuator to do it. Think 'negative attenuation' and 'positive attenuation', which sounds odd at first sight but makes sense.  His main point, which you didn't comment on, was concerning "changing the gain of the whole structure".

post #61180 of 70906
how come after running audysy. they set my speakers fronts Large, center Large, surrounds Small.

i have a subwoofer. then i switched all from Large to Small.

then my crossover sets to fronts 40hz, center 40hz and surrounds 60hz. can i just leave it like these as what aud. results? or i need to tweak all of them to 80hz?
post #61181 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

This one is just for you, Joe :)

 

Haha!!  I just saw this...was really bummed when I saw you had already crossed it in the REW thread as I didn't see the post!  I feel so special...can't wait to hit 500! cool.gif

 

Hahaha. Yes, the 10,000th post was dedicated to you, Joe :)  Of course if you look at it again the post count will have changed anyway. I happened also to make the 60,000th post in this thread. 

post #61182 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

how come after running audysy. they set my speakers fronts Large, center Large, surrounds Small.

i have a subwoofer. then i switched all from Large to Small.

then my crossover sets to fronts 40hz, center 40hz and surrounds 60hz. can i just leave it like these as what aud. results? or i need to tweak all of them to 80hz?

 

Audyssey detects the -3dB rolloff of your speakers in the room, and will be influenced by the room's contribution to the speaker response. As a result the speakers can then get set to Large by the AVR (not Audyssey) which uses a predetermined cutoff (eg 40Hz) to make its decision to set them to large. You did the right thing by changing them to small.

 

See if these FAQ answers help:

 


c)1.   Why are my Crossovers set differently to my speaker manufacturer's specification?


c)2.   Why do I often see advice to raise the Crossovers to 80Hz?


c)3.   I have big tower speakers at the front. Shouldn't I set these to Large'?


c)4.   Is it OK to change the Crossovers from Audyssey's recommendation?

post #61183 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I understood what Igor meant by "gain of attenuator" although it is a clumsy phrase (but can be excused in someone for whom English is a foreign language). I believe he just means when changing the gain, using the attenuator to do it. Think 'negative attenuation' and 'positive attenuation', which sounds odd at first sight but makes sense.  His main point, which you didn't comment on, was concerning "changing the gain of the whole structure".

Keith, a nice try indeed, but I really really wish xou give up on this matter. Doesn't make you look like a pro engineer, um, ...just the opposite. tongue.gif

Inventing such things like "negative and positive attenuation" can not be found in any English technical literature or university text book in the context of what "The Knob" on the backside of a subwoofer is intended to do.

Hope no more 6 page debate will follow on your side. Promise?wink.gif

With compliments!
post #61184 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I understood what Igor meant by "gain of attenuator" although it is a clumsy phrase (but can be excused in someone for whom English is a foreign language). I believe he just means when changing the gain, using the attenuator to do it. Think 'negative attenuation' and 'positive attenuation', which sounds odd at first sight but makes sense.  His main point, which you didn't comment on, was concerning "changing the gain of the whole structure".

Keith, a nice try indeed, but I really really wish xou give up on this matter. Doesn't make you look like a pro engineer, um, ...just the opposite. tongue.gif

Inventing such things like "negative and positive attenuation" can not be found in any English technical literature or university text book in the context of what "The Knob" on the backside of a subwoofer is intended to do.

Hope no more 6 page debate will follow on your side. Promise?wink.gif

With compliments!

 

I am no engineer, but I do know what the difference is between a gain control and a volume control.  I also understand the difference between active (powered) and passive speakers wink.gif, that clipping can indeed cause damage to speakers wink.gif, that a bath towel is not a substitute for a mic stand wink.gif, that the mic needs to be calibrated when using REW, according to the author of REW wink.gif, that Audyssey chirps can - and often do - sound different to each other without the speakers being broken wink.gif, and that if a 60Hz 'hum' cannot be seen on a measurement graph it cannot be heard by an ear wink.gif.  So maybe I should thank God that I am not a "pro engineer" wink.gif

 

By negative and positive attenuation I simply mean, as I said, changing the gain. If you change it from a setting of 5 to a setting of 10, that will be 'negative attenuation' and if you change it from 10 to 5 that will be 'positive attenuation'. It isn't really hard to figure out, with no text book required.

 

I think you need to address Igor's point really not argue with me about semantics.

post #61185 of 70906
^^^^LMFAO...you guys are like Laurel and Hardy (or Stan and Ollie)!
post #61186 of 70906
move on please
post #61187 of 70906
I am looking for a file of the "wasping sound" audyssey uses for calibration, so I could play it on each speaker for testing. Any ideas on where to get it?
post #61188 of 70906
ok help here I just bought a marantz 7005 with MultEQ XT ,I need help with mic placement.

using all points I have a small living room and there is a walls behind the sofa and to the left and right .

The center position is marked with red and black.

thanksProcessed By eBay with ImageMagick, R1.1.1.||B2||T0JKX0lEPTVjYTFhYjFlYTM1YTAyYjMwNGY5OGQzMTMxZTViOTA0ZmMzMGM1MTY0NjU4fHxTRUxMRVJfTkFNRT1nb2RzaGVscGluZ2hhbmR8fE9SSUdJTkFMX0VCQVlfUVVBTElUWV9TQ09SRT00fHxDUkVBVElPTl9EQVRFPTMvMjcvMTMgNjo0OSBQTQ==
post #61189 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by strumf666 View Post

I am looking for a file of the "wasping sound" audyssey uses for calibration, so I could play it on each speaker for testing. Any ideas on where to get it?

You may do your own search on Da Innernet to find a place for downloading the Audyssey chirps, but I doubt that you could use it for calibration "as is" just by playing it on each speaker. What AVR do you have, if any?
post #61190 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by strumf666 View Post

I am looking for a file of the "wasping sound" audyssey uses for calibration, so I could play it on each speaker for testing. Any ideas on where to get it?

 

Wasping sound???  They are called "chirps".  I have no idea how you are going to use it, but here it is:

 

 

 

 

audyssey-chirp.zip 18k .zip file
post #61191 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by strumf666 View Post

I am looking for a file of the "wasping sound" audyssey uses for calibration, so I could play it on each speaker for testing. Any ideas on where to get it?

I don't know where you can get it but if it helps you search for it, the proper name for it is a 'log chirp' or 'log sine sweep' I believe.
post #61192 of 70906
^IIRC someone posted that they use that for their phone ringtone! smile.gif
post #61193 of 70906
Thanks. Regarding use, I am playing with the room (basstraps and absorber foam) and during recalibration I noticed a difference in sound between front front speakers which could be either because I placed a bass trap next to the left speaker, but due to the lack of space I couldn't do the same next to the right speaker or the fact that I managed to turn over the speaker while sorting the wiring... The difference is much easier to hear with chirping than playing music.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Wasping sound??? They are called "chirps". I have no idea how you are going to use it, but here it is:




audyssey-chirp.zip 18k .zip file
This doesn't sound as my NR818
post #61194 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

The gain of attenuator? Igor, what kind of hogwash is that?eek.gifsmile.gif In the above block diagram X = 1, it simply means: 3x is three times and 30x means 30 times. Don't over think a simple example, please! smile.gif

As an engineer you should be able to operate some math and know there are numbers between 0 and 1 (and I specifically indicated the range in my post). Effectively a gain of 0.5 is the same as attenuation of 2. It might sound clumsy in plain every day English, but it is scientifically common to operate terms in such "clumsy" way. The same way as you could take square root of -2 and get some imaginary number... This is what makes the difference, engineer should be able to look at same thing from different angles and still see that it is the same thing. While for non-engineer words might sound absurd, something like taking square root from negative number - you first learn in school that it is impossible, and then it appears it is possible but you should look at numbers from different angle, or just add yet another dimension to the view.
post #61195 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I don't know where you can get it but if it helps you search for it, the proper name for it is a 'log chirp' or 'log sine sweep' I believe.

I have a question about "the chirp". In a previous post of mine I had said that my subs plate amp died before the ability to run Audyssey and as a experiment, was going to try my spare Carver amp to drive the sub. When running Audyssey with the Carver driving the sub I hear the "chirp" from the sub but a deeper "chirp". Using the Onkyo's built in test tones and spl meter, I set it up to about 73db before running Audyssey. Then, I borrowed a Klipsch plate amp and set it up all over again This Klipsch amp has the options of running the mains through it, R and L line in or a single sub in. I have tried the R and L line in's and the sub in with these same results. Using the Carver I get the "chirp", using the Klipsch I get a " thump" Two amps, two completely different sounds. So the question is, what should I be hearing from the sub running Audyssey? I suspect the answer is "chirp" but why am I getting a "thump" from the Klipsch?
post #61196 of 70906
post #61197 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by stefuel View Post

why am I getting a "thump" from the Klipsch?

The plate amp is probably band-limited. The higher frequency part of the sweep signal is missing.
post #61198 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by urwi View Post

The plate amp is probably band-limited. The higher frequency part of the sweep signal is missing.

OK but the question stands. What should I be hearing, chirp or thump???
Then the question, if I'm missing something from the sweep signal, is the calibration correct???
post #61199 of 70906
Quote:
Originally Posted by stefuel View Post


OK but the question stands. What should I be hearing, chirp or thump???
Then the question, if I'm missing something from the sweep signal, is the calibration correct???

You should be hearing a thump from the sub since it should be getting a bandwidth-limited (low-passed) signal.  Using the alternative wide-band amp amp is not a standard arrangement.  You are not missing anything useful.

post #61200 of 70906
^ stefuel, from the sats you'll hear something very similar to the sweep sound linked above when played through your computer speakers. From the sub(s) you'll hear a "thump" sound due to restricted HF response of the sub(s).

edit:hadn't seen Kal's post
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