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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 2041

post #61201 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by stefuel View Post


OK but the question stands. What should I be hearing, chirp or thump???
Then the question, if I'm missing something from the sweep signal, is the calibration correct???

 

1.  I hear a thump, significantly different from the full-band chirp that I hear from the satellite speakers.  A thump is the normal sound. 

2.  I don't think so, but it's hard to tell if your calibrations will be the same both ways.

 

Edit:  All three of us at the same time.

post #61202 of 70884
I just recently purchased a Denon 4311CI with MultiEQ XT32. This receiver is replacing a Yamaha RX-A1010 that I really liked, but I was always concerned about the lack of sub EQ on this unit. So, to mitigate this issue, I added a Velodyne SMS-1 to the equation. Really happy with the results.

Of course now with the Denon (in theory) I don't need the SMS-1. However, I really liked instant graphic response on the SMS-1 and the possibility to adjust/tweak my room response using the 8 parametric bands.

So, the obvious question is: can I add the SMS-1 to the mix? Or, is definitely not possible?
post #61203 of 70884
^I think it can be done, see this handy reference:
f)9. What's the best way to set up Audyssey when also using Velodyne's SMS-1 room EQ system?

I have 2 velo subs each with the built-in (less flexible) version of their SMS EQ. So far I've used it to help find a good placement in the room for the subs but then I turned it off and let XT32 do all the EQ.

In your case, if you have flexibility with the placement, I 'd do the same-use the SMS to do a "measured sub haul/crawl" to find placements with smoothest FR and then run just XT32.

You could then experiment with tweaks using the above guide.
post #61204 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^I think it can be done, see this handy reference:
f)9. What's the best way to set up Audyssey when also using Velodyne's SMS-1 room EQ system?

I have 2 velo subs each with the built-in (less flexible) version of their SMS EQ. So far I've used it to help find a good placement in the room for the subs but then I turned it off and let XT32 do all the EQ.

In your case, if you have flexibility with the placement, I 'd do the same-use the SMS to do a "measured sub haul/crawl" to find placements with smoothest FR and then run just XT32.

You could then experiment with tweaks using the above guide.

Thanks for replying back! I have no flexibility to place my subs in a different location other than the one in which they are currently placed (at the front). So, the SMS-1 will not be able to help me much in that area.

Yep, I did check that guide before and actually that is the reason of my question. See, I just purchased a Denon 4311 with XT32 to calibrate my two subwoofers (SVS PB13-Ultra), but I'm not sure if it is possible to actually hook the SMS-1, as the receiver has two different subwoofer outputs (and the SMS-1 only has one).

Chances are the answer will be "no". But, I just want to make sure that is the case, before putting SMS-1 up for sale.

Thanks again!
post #61205 of 70884
am i allowed to tweak the subwoofer trim after running the aud.?
post #61206 of 70884
^^
You're allowed, of course; nobody will arrest you, and it won't change your Audyssey corrections. Seems like a fair number of people here did this because they wanted more bass. I'm completely satisfied with the flat bass I have down to about 25 Hz ( which is the low end of my sub's response curve), so I left the trim where Audyssey put it.
post #61207 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

^^
You're allowed, of course; nobody will arrest you, and it won't change your Audyssey corrections. Seems like a fair number of people here did this because they wanted more bass. I'm completely satisfied with the flat bass I have down to about 25 Hz ( which is the low end of my sub's response curve), so I left the trim where Audyssey put it.
i see thanks. what if i will add another dayton 1200 on my system? that will make a better sound upgrade in bass for my system? because i couldn't afford to buy another klipsch for 300 just for one sub woofer.
post #61208 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

am i allowed to tweak the subwoofer trim after running the aud.?

 

Adding for clarification, make the level adjustment in the AVR, not using the gain knob on the sub itself.

post #61209 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Adding for clarification, make the level adjustment in the AVR, not using the gain knob on the sub itself.
gotcha! thanks.
post #61210 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Adding for clarification, make the level adjustment in the AVR, not using the gain knob on the sub itself.

Wait, my understanding was that you want to adjust the gain level on the sub rather than the AVR.

From post # 51779

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#post_21782993

f)4. If I want to run my subs a little 'hot' where should I make the changes?

Many people prefer to run their subs a little hotter than reference. That's fine but remember to make the adjustment in the AVR or PrePro trim settings and not on the sub itself. This makes it easier to return to a known starting point if you decide to go back later. Adjusting the trims does not in any way invalidate the calibration but it may affect the way Dynamic EQ works (see elsewhere in this FAQ for more info - link below).

You may want to consider this comment from Ed Mullen, Director of Technology at renowned subwoofer manufacturer SVS:

"A general rule when level matching the subs and the speaker channels is to run the gain hotter at the subs and the AVR sub trim level cooler. That keeps the AVR sub signal clean and allows upward adjustability to run the sub hotter if needed."

In other words, it may be better to turn UP the volume control on the sub so that the AVR sets your trim lower (i.e. to a bigger minus figure).
post #61211 of 70884
Quote:
Many people prefer to run their subs a little hotter than reference. That's fine but remember to make the adjustment in the AVR or PrePro trim settings and not on the sub itself. This makes it easier to return to a known starting point if you decide to go back later. Adjusting the trims does not in any way invalidate the calibration but it may affect the way Dynamic EQ works (see elsewhere in this FAQ for more info - link below).
post #61212 of 70884
Yes thats what i am gonna do. Adjust the trim from my avr, maybe until i get another dayton 1200. Hopefully it make a big difference with one dayton sub.maybe it will help if i get another dayton to put right after my front R?

Edited by caloyzki - 3/31/13 at 8:39am
post #61213 of 70884
I always adjust the trims in my AVR as well, it is easier to do it with the remote from my seat. I personally like the surrounds to run a little hotter than what Audyssey says - probably my aging ears needing more UMPH. smile.gif
post #61214 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

Yes thats what i am gonna do. Adjust the trim from my avr, maybe until i get another dayton 1200. Hopefully it make a big difference with one dayton sub.maybe it will help if i get another dayton to put right after my front R?

What are those small speakers on stands doing there up front?eek.gif
post #61215 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

What are those small speakers on stands doing there up front?eek.gif
I jist put all together uofronts just to took a picture with the surrounds. Thats the energy v mini. I sold that one already coz its too small from my fronts and i have now my mordaunt short carnival 2 for my surrounds.
post #61216 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by caloyzki View Post

I jist put all together uofronts just to took a picture with the surrounds. Thats the energy v mini. I sold that one already coz its too small from my fronts and i have now my mordaunt short carnival 2 for my surrounds.

A family photo, eh? Everybody cheese! tongue.gif
post #61217 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

Thanks for replying back! I have no flexibility to place my subs in a different location other than the one in which they are currently placed (at the front). So, the SMS-1 will not be able to help me much in that area.
Yep, I did check that guide before and actually that is the reason of my question. See, I just purchased a Denon 4311 with XT32 to calibrate my two subwoofers (SVS PB13-Ultra), but I'm not sure if it is possible to actually hook the SMS-1, as the receiver has two different subwoofer outputs (and the SMS-1 only has one)...
Ahh, good point irt the dual sub outs. But here's the thing: that's so SubEQHT can measure the level and distance of each sub and adjust accordingly. Then XT32 EQs them firing simultaneously. There has been discussion here about an Onkyo AVR model with XT32 but without SubEQHT. The advice has been that if your subs are equidistant from MLP, are identical and have the sub vol controls set the same, SubEQHT is really just a convenience. If that applies to you, you are free to use a single sub out and run it to the SMS if you want to play with it to tweak the bass. Also, in your case, if the SMS allows distance and trim individual settings those restrictiions wouldn't even apply.

What I'd do is run XT32 the usual way (no SMS) and listen to the result. Chances are it'll be pretty darn good.

If I thought the bass needed further tweaks, I'd use a measurement system like OmniMic, REW, XTZ, etc to get a more objective view of what's going on in the room. Then I'd come back and ask for advice on what might work. IIRC some folks are getting smoother low freq graphs by simply tweaking distance, others have been using PEQ. So you could consider playing with the SMS PEQ. It's YMMV-whether the PEQ will help really depends on your room and current sub placements and how well XT32 can EQ it on its own.
post #61218 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

A family photo, eh? Everybody cheese! tongue.gif
tongue.gif
post #61219 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Ahh, good point irt the dual sub outs. But here's the thing: that's so SubEQHT can measure the level and distance of each sub and adjust accordingly. Then XT32 EQs them firing simultaneously. There has been discussion here about an Onkyo AVR model with XT32 but without SubEQHT. The advice has been that if your subs are equidistant from MLP, are identical and have the sub vol controls set the same, SubEQHT is really just a convenience. If that applies to you, you are free to use a single sub out and run it to the SMS if you want to play with it to tweak the bass. Also, in your case, if the SMS allows distance and trim individual settings those restrictiions wouldn't even apply.

What I'd do is run XT32 the usual way (no SMS) and listen to the result. Chances are it'll be pretty darn good.

If I thought the bass needed further tweaks, I'd use a measurement system like OmniMic, REW, XTZ, etc to get a more objective view of what's going on in the room. Then I'd come back and ask for advice on what might work. IIRC some folks are getting smoother low freq graphs by simply tweaking distance, others have been using PEQ. So you could consider playing with the SMS PEQ. It's YMMV-whether the PEQ will help really depends on your room and current sub placements and how well XT32 can EQ it on its own.

Excellent advise from SoM, as always. smile.gif

On a second note, when you arrive to the conclusion that you need to take measurements with any of the above mentioned software it's always recommended to take multiple mic position scans and average them coz 1 mic position in the audio world won't tell you the "truth". A mic always "hears" differently than our ears, the results of 1 measurement may thus be easily misleading. You may end up with tweaks that look very nice on a single graph, yet have nothing to do with real world results. It's not just Audyssey that requires multiple mic position measurements, but other Room Correction systems work just the same, so for best results it worth to follow these principles.

Hope this helps. smile.gif
Edited by mogorf - 3/31/13 at 10:01am
post #61220 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post


Gotcha!

What I did at the end was basically let Audyssey complete the whole calibration. But, right after that, I went back and use my SPL meter to ensure all speakers were reading 75dB. Of course and as expected the subs were also adjusted by Audyssey at 75dB. So, I tweaked the gain on the subs / receiver until I did hit 80dB on the SPL.

More than one way to skin skin a cat..........wink.gif

So, if you don't have a SPL and/or if you are not willing to tweak both (subs and receiver), it is better to just keep things simple and adjust the sub trim at the AVR.

Cheers!
post #61221 of 70884
No reason to believe that your SPL meter is any more accurate that is the Audyssey mic. wink.gif
post #61222 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

No reason to believe that your SPL meter is any more accurate that is the Audyssey mic. wink.gif

+1. While the calibration file of the Audyssey mic is burned into the AVR, the SPL meter is just all over the map. biggrin.gif
post #61223 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Ahh, good point irt the dual sub outs. But here's the thing: that's so SubEQHT can measure the level and distance of each sub and adjust accordingly. Then XT32 EQs them firing simultaneously. There has been discussion here about an Onkyo AVR model with XT32 but without SubEQHT. The advice has been that if your subs are equidistant from MLP, are identical and have the sub vol controls set the same, SubEQHT is really just a convenience. If that applies to you, you are free to use a single sub out and run it to the SMS if you want to play with it to tweak the bass. Also, in your case, if the SMS allows distance and trim individual settings those restrictiions wouldn't even apply.

Thanks! You just described my current setup....subs are equidistant from my MLP, both are identical (SVS PB13-Ultra) and thanks to Audyssey, now I know that my room is playing a big role in gain levels between both subwoofers. In other words one sub's gain level must be set at -15dB and the other one at -17dB. So, I can use that info for the SMS-1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

What I'd do is run XT32 the usual way (no SMS) and listen to the result. Chances are it'll be pretty darn good.

Yes, between yesterday's night and early this morning, I was able to achieve really good results by only using XT32. I used "Quick Select" to create two profiles: one for Movies (BD) and (SAT/CBL) for Music.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

If I thought the bass needed further tweaks, I'd use a measurement system like OmniMic, REW, XTZ, etc to get a more objective view of what's going on in the room. Then I'd come back and ask for advice on what might work. IIRC some folks are getting smoother low freq graphs by simply tweaking distance, others have been using PEQ. So you could consider playing with the SMS PEQ. It's YMMV-whether the PEQ will help really depends on your room and current sub placements and how well XT32 can EQ it on its own.

Thanks! That is next for me. OmniMic V2 was part of my late Christmas presents, so I'll try to measure everything with the current setup/calibration, and then I'll play add the SMS-1 to see how it compares. It won't be probably until the next weekend........wife is giving the look (way too much time spent this past two days on the HT Room............LOL).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Excellent advise from SoM, as always. smile.gif

On a second note, when you arrive to the conclusion that you need to take measurements with any of the above mentioned software it's always recommended to take multiple mic position scans and average them coz 1 mic position in the audio world won't tell you the "truth". A mic always "hears" differently than our ears, the results of 1 measurement may thus be easily misleading. You may end up with tweaks that look very nice on a single graph, yet have nothing to do with real world results. It's not just Audyssey that requires multiple mic position measurements, but other Room Correction systems work just the same, so for best results it worth to follow these principles.

Hope this helps. smile.gif

Great recommendation!

I was only measuring at the MLP, but what you just mentioned makes sense. I'll for sure give it a try.

Thanks!
post #61224 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

No reason to believe that your SPL meter is any more accurate that is the Audyssey mic. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

+1. While the calibration file of the Audyssey mic is burned into the AVR, the SPL meter is just all over the map. biggrin.gif


Ha, ha....and, I didn't mention my SPL is the Radio Shack Analog model..............tongue.gif

Funny thing is: Audyssey (the accurate one) measured/calibrated all speakers at 75dB. And the SPL meter was pretty much measuring all speakers at the same level (75dB). So, not bad for the underdog.........tongue.giftongue.giftongue.gif
post #61225 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by cr136124 View Post

I just recently purchased a Denon 4311CI with MultiEQ XT32. This receiver is replacing a Yamaha RX-A1010 that I really liked, but I was always concerned about the lack of sub EQ on this unit. So, to mitigate this issue, I added a Velodyne SMS-1 to the equation. Really happy with the results.

Of course now with the Denon (in theory) I don't need the SMS-1. However, I really liked instant graphic response on the SMS-1 and the possibility to adjust/tweak my room response using the 8 parametric bands.

So, the obvious question is: can I add the SMS-1 to the mix? Or, is definitely not possible?

 

Several years ago, when I upgraded from a Denon 4308 (MultEQ XT) to a 4311 with XT32, I had both an SMS-1 and an AS-EQ1.  I spent quite a bit of time analyzing using the 4311 in conjunction with these other bass equalization systems.  My conclusion was that no combination of XT32 plus either the SMS-1 or the AS-EQ1 performed any better than XT32 by itself.  So I sold both units and put the money towards another sub--money well spent!

post #61226 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Several years ago, when I upgraded from a Denon 4308 (MultEQ XT) to a 4311 with XT32, I had both an SMS-1 and an AS-EQ1.  I spent quite a bit of time analyzing using the 4311 in conjunction with these other bass equalization systems.  My conclusion was that no combination of XT32 plus either the SMS-1 or the AS-EQ1 performed any better than XT32 by itself.  So I sold both units and put the money towards another sub--money well spent!

Thanks!

I think you just saved me all the time and trouble with your response. wink.gif

Oh, well time to take some pics of the SMS-1 and put it up for sale.
post #61227 of 70884
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I think the main problem with using a tripod (even a very good one like my big Manfrotto) is that they are not designed to work over a couch. You always end up with one leg on the couch and two on the floor. People with small tripods often place them on the couch itself. It is always a kludge. Tripods are designed to stand on the ground and to hold a (possibly heavy) camera.

I can never understand the reluctance of people to buy a proper mic stand, designed for the job of holding a mic. They will spend thousands of dollars on AV gear and then hesitate to spend 20 bucks for the proper tool for the job of holding the mic!  

How much difference it makes to the measurements is always going to be a variable - it will depend on so many factors, as you suggest. But why make it more likely that you are NOT getting the best result by using the wrong tool for the job in the first place?  Also, many tripods are big and heavy, with a large head designed for holding a large camera. There is always the possibility, when using such a tripod,  that the thick legs can pick up airborne vibrations, or that the large head can cause unwanted reflections. Tripods for cameras - mic stands for mics. Seems obvious to me. Sure, I can put in a screw using a hammer - but will it give me the same result as using a screwdriver?  Not on your life. And I repeat - they cost 20 bucks!! That is a round of drinks in the UK - gone in 60 seconds smile.gif 

I want to do this now after reading the posts smile.gif. Can you tell me whether you point the Eiffel Tower mic towards the ceiling still while using this kind if stand?
post #61228 of 70884
^^^^Audyssey mic should always point to the ceiling during calibration.
post #61229 of 70884
I have an SVS AS-EQ1, and right now I have a single sealed sub that is flat (post-calibration) down to 25 Hz. I'd like to go a little lower, and I was thinking of adding a second sub (ported) that goes down to 19Hz. This is in a 12x13 foot room with 8 foot ceilings. It's my understanding that Audyssey will calibrate each sub separately but will then do a room correction for the LEAST capable sub. Is that right? If it is, then I will still not get the increased bass extension contributed by that second sub, right?

And if that's the case, then I would probably be better off with the single sub that goes down to 19 Hz, since the room is small enough to get plenty of bass volume with a single sub, and I get a flat-looking post-Audyssey frequency response (generated by the SVS unit--I don't have REW) at the MLP from the sub I have in its current position.

Your thoughts, folks?
post #61230 of 70884
Thank you jkasanic smile.gif
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