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post #61321 of 70900
I ordered the boom mic and attachment per guide. My main question is when placing the boom mic in my MLP there is no way to get it to ear height as I can't adjust it that low, since the stand is to long and just digs into the couch. My seats do recline not sure if that would at least help in lowering the mic. So is it ok to be about 3" above my listening height? Also when placing it on the floor do you want to keep it the same level height as when it was on the couch? Say 50" high on the couch and want to match it at 50" from the floor as well or does this not matter to much? Thanks for all the great info on here kbarnes and everyone else contributing. It has been great help for me.
post #61322 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by pretsam View Post

I ordered the boom mic and attachment per guide. My main question is when placing the boom mic in my MLP there is no way to get it to ear height as I can't adjust it that low, since the stand is to long and just digs into the couch. My seats do recline not sure if that would at least help in lowering the mic. So is it ok to be about 3" above my listening height? Also when placing it on the floor do you want to keep it the same level height as when it was on the couch? Say 50" high on the couch and want to match it at 50" from the floor as well or does this not matter to much? Thanks for all the great info on here kbarnes and everyone else contributing. It has been great help for me.

Not sure how you're setting this up, but the idea is to keep the mic stand on the floor and move/swing the stand to put the mic into the various listening positions. As long as you're keeping the stand on the floor, the mic will always remain at the same height.

Not sure why you have it on a couch instead of on the floor. Also, is your couch on stilts?biggrin.gif The typical listening position (i.e., the height of your ears) is about 36" from the ground.
post #61323 of 70900
I have dual subs split out with a Y from my single avr output. Why does audyssey say my sub is over 14 feet away when they are closer than the right and left channels which are about 10 feet away? I feel like I've had to crank the sub trim in the avr all the way to plus 12 and still don't have the bass effect I did before audyssey. I'm considering turning off audyssey and just doing manual distance measurements, setting speakers to small, setting crossovers to 80, and then set the bass volume with the subs themselves.
post #61324 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

Not sure how you're setting this up, but the idea is to keep the mic stand on the floor and move/swing the stand to put the mic into the various listening positions. As long as you're keeping the stand on the floor, the mic will always remain at the same height.

Not sure why you have it on a couch instead of on the floor. Also, is your couch on stilts?biggrin.gif The typical listening position (i.e., the height of your ears) is about 36" from the ground.

Never mind I see where I made my mistake smile.gif Completely forgot to actually use the arm piece. lol
thx pbarach
post #61325 of 70900
^^^
Back to the drawing board wink.gif
post #61326 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrotel View Post

I have dual subs split out with a Y from my single avr output. Why does audyssey say my sub is over 14 feet away when they are closer than the right and left channels which are about 10 feet away? I feel like I've had to crank the sub trim in the avr all the way to plus 12 and still don't have the bass effect I did before audyssey. I'm considering turning off audyssey and just doing manual distance measurements, setting speakers to small, setting crossovers to 80, and then set the bass volume with the subs themselves.

 

Answered in the FAQ. Here you go:

 

f)1.    Why has Audyssey set my sub distance much greater than it actually measures?


f)3.    How do I set the controls on my subwoofer before running MultEQ?


f)4.    If I want to run my subs a little 'hot' where should I make the changes?
 

f)5.    Since I ran Audyssey everything sounds great - but where has my bass gone?

post #61327 of 70900
Hi,
After I ran Audyssey I checked the db level of all my speakers at my LP. The levels were all over the place from 66 to 74. Aren't they supposed to be the same at around 75 db? I adjusted all my speakers to read 75 db's at my lp, is that right?
Thanks
post #61328 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Hi,
After I ran Audyssey I checked the db level of all my speakers at my LP. The levels were all over the place from 66 to 74. Aren't they supposed to be the same at around 75 db? I adjusted all my speakers to read 75 db's at my lp, is that right?
Thanks

 

What did you use to check the levels with and what makes you think it will be more accurate than Audyssey?

 

If you haven't read the 101 or the FAQ (linked in my sig) and followed the setup guidelines to the letter, I suggest you re-run Audyssey as my experience, after running Audyssey literally hundreds of times, is that Audyssey sets the levels very, very consistently. When I check with my Ratshack SPL meter, they all usually read about 72dB (the satellites not the subs), but they are consistent, channel to channel, which is what matters. 

 

It is likely that by changing the levels manually you have adversely affected the response in the time domain and this may manifest itself as 'smearing' or 'blurring' of the imaging, resulting in a far less precise soundstage where you can pinpoint individual sounds with a very high degree of accuracy.

post #61329 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Hi,
After I ran Audyssey I checked the db level of all my speakers at my LP. The levels were all over the place from 66 to 74. Aren't they supposed to be the same at around 75 db? I adjusted all my speakers to read 75 db's at my lp, is that right?
Thanks

I'd run Audyssey again, write down your settings, then watch a segment from a movie with good dynamic range. Adjust all channels to 75db, then watch that same segment of the same movie to see if you can tell the difference. I'd also suggest moving your sub out of the corner, and increasing the distance between your front speakers for a wider sound stage and to avoid sound reflecting off your television. I suspect that your rear surrounds were set at a higher level due to the distance from your main listening position relative to your front speakers. Out of curiosity, I checked and measured my levels:
Left: -7.0
Center: -7.5
Right: -5.5
Surround Right: -10.5
Surround Back Right: -4.5
Surround Back Left: -4.0
Surround Left: -10.5
Sub: +1.5
All levels measure very close to 70db, subs were set about 2db lower.

Your room layout is similar to mine, but your surround channels are a good distance away from the MLP. My surrounds are above (SB) and directly beside my loveseat. Subs are on either side of the loveseat. I've found that the levels set by Audyssey are more accurate than setting levels with a meter. Are your using a mic stand or a tripod when your run Audyssey?
post #61330 of 70900
Thanks for the replies:
I use a Radio Shack SPL meter, and I don't remember what the db offsets were. I was referring to the actual db's that I was getting with the RS meter using the AVR pink noise at my listening position after running Audyssey. THey were ranging from 66 to 74 db's. After reading through some of the Audyssey stuff I did get a mic stand and used it according to the instructions already posted.

Quote:
is that Audyssey sets the levels very, very consistently.

That was my point. After running Audyssey my levels were NOT consistent and I thought they should be.
Quote:
It is likely that by changing the levels manually you have adversely affected

I figured as much but if Audyssey is making the levels so different what options do I have?
Quote:
I'd also suggest moving your sub out of the corner, and increasing the distance between your front speakers for a wider sound stage and to avoid sound reflecting off your television. I suspect that your rear surrounds were set at a higher level due to the distance from your main listening position relative to your front speakers.

The picture in my sig is old and my system has changed, I'll take and post some current pics. I've added a sub, rear surrounds and wides and I've brought my fronts and center forward a few inches. I've also separated the fronts a little more.
post #61331 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Thanks for the replies:
I use a Radio Shack SPL meter, and I don't remember what the db offsets were. I was referring to the actual db's that I was getting with the RS meter using the AVR pink noise at my listening position after running Audyssey. THey were ranging from 66 to 74 db's. After reading through some of the Audyssey stuff I did get a mic stand and used it according to the instructions already posted.
That was my point. After running Audyssey my levels were NOT consistent and I thought they should be.
I figured as much but if Audyssey is making the levels so different what options do I have?
The picture in my sig is old and my system has changed, I'll take and post some current pics. I've added a sub, rear surrounds and wides and I've brought my fronts and center forward a few inches. I've also separated the fronts a little more.

The receiver test tones bypass Audyssey corrections. It is possible that some speakers have big enough corrections to make them seem iut of balance when, say, a big midbass peak is not tamed.
post #61332 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

The receiver test tones bypass Audyssey corrections. It is possible that some speakers have big enough corrections to make them seem iut of balance when, say, a big midbass peak is not tamed.

JHAz, as I know the receiver test tones for the satellites are band limited 500 Hz-2kHz pink noise. I'm not sure 500 kHz can still be called mid-bass. Correct me if I'm wrong, please. smile.gif
post #61333 of 70900
I guess my question is: Should all speakers read about the same db level when playing the noise generator from my AVR after Audyssey is run?
post #61334 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

I guess my question is: Should all speakers read about the same db level when playing the noise generator from my AVR after Audyssey is run?

Sorry to ask the obvious, but are you placing the SPL meter to the same position as the Audyssey mic, i.e. to the MLP and making sure the SPL mic is facing the ceiling? If so, then playing the test tones should read about the same within the tolerance range of the SPL meter compared to the same of the Audyssey mic. Usually +/- 2 dB for both devices.
Edited by mogorf - 4/7/13 at 11:55am
post #61335 of 70900
Your receiver test tones do not pass through audyssey correction so I'd recommend tones from a disc or other source for your measurements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

I guess my question is: Should all speakers read about the same db level when playing the noise generator from my AVR after Audyssey is run?
post #61336 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

I guess my question is: Should all speakers read about the same db level when playing the noise generator from my AVR after Audyssey is run?

Hi Doug:

The short answer would be yes and no. The levels will deviate slightly from speaker to speaker, depending on your room layout. Mine have been pretty consistent, even after adding an outboard amp and using the Onkyo for a pre-amp. You have a lot of surfaces that absorb audio in your room, affecting the measurements that Audyssey delivers. I did find that when I added a large rug, and proper curtains to our living room, that the acoustical properties improved. Sound in the room became tighter, overall.

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/forums/84181/entries/22104618.html

Speaker Trim Levels

Chris Kyriakakis September 29, 2012

Trim levels are just relative numbers. There is nothing wrong (or different) about negative trims. The point of calibrating levels is to (1) achieve the same level for every speaker and (2) play at film reference when the master volume is at 0.

If the speakers have high sensitivity, or are close to the listening position (or both) then the trim levels will show up negative to achieve the goals mentioned above. It's not a good idea to change the trims because that will throw off the Dynamic EQ calibration. If you want the system to play louder just turn up the master volume.

SPL meters need calibration so it's possible that there is enough discrepancy between the meter and the Audyssey mic to show different readings. Also, the internal test noise of the AVR is a slightly different way of calculating level than what Audyssey does using psychoacoustic weighting of the measured response.

In any case, it's not a huge deal to change the trims if you feel the need to (keeping in mind the implications on Dynamic EQ). The most important part of Audyssey--the filters--are not affected by trim levels.

"The picture in my sig is old and my system has changed, I'll take and post some current pics. I've added a sub, rear surrounds and wides and I've brought my fronts and center forward a few inches. I've also separated the fronts a little more."

Your Denon uses MultEQ XT32 - Are your measuring all 8 positions? Looking forward to seeing your new results and pics.
Edited by myoda - 4/7/13 at 12:41pm
post #61337 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

Your receiver test tones do not pass through audyssey correction so I'd recommend tones from a disc or other source for your measurements.

Here's a conversation I had with Chris K. on this very subject:

Me: Hi Chris, just a short Q. While playing test tones (-30 dBfs, 500 Hz-2kHz band limited pink noise) off a test CD and Audyssey is turned ON and OFF will the meter (C-weighted) show different SPL levels at the MLP? Thanks in advance. Cheers, Feri

Chris Kyriakakis Hi Feri, yes it's possible when using a CD. It will depend on how much work the MultEQ filter is doing in that region.

Me: How about when using the AVR's internal test tones? AFAIK, the AVR turns off Audyssey filters during test tone rendering, but leaves the channel trims and distances intact. Thank again.

Chris Kyriakakis That's right. The internal test tones don't see the filters so you will get the same answer with Audyssey on and off.

Me: Ok, thanks. Lastly. So, for absolute SPL (75 dB) at the MLP which one is the valid test, an external CD with test tones and Audyssey ON, or the internal test tones without Audyssey filters?

Chris Kyriakakis If you are absolutely certain that the external CD was properly recorded (there are some that are not--particularly DVDs that have messed up the dialnorm setting), then that's the way to go. Because of this uncertainty, however, we always recommend to go with the internal test tone if you want to check.

Me: I see, and understand the worry about external "stuff", but in case of the internal test tones what is the rationale for turning off Audyssey if the MultEQ filters have a job there. Am I far from reality with my conclusion that in this narrow 500 Hz-2 kHz band a typical room will only show subtle differences with MultEQ filters ON or OFF? At least it will be somewhere within the +/- 2dB tolerance range of an average SPL meter due to a region free of room modes not like the bass department.

Chris Kyriakakis It's not that MultEQ is turned off. It's because the AVR has the test noise in a block that comes after MultEQ and so it doesn't see the filters. We have asked for this many times, but it's apparently too complicated for them to make the change in the architecture.

Me: Absolutely clear. Thank you Chris, as always.



Hope this helps clear up matters. smile.gif
post #61338 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

I guess my question is: Should all speakers read about the same db level when playing the noise generator from my AVR after Audyssey is run?

My short answer: no.

Since the AVR's internal test tones are not (and cannot be) processed by Audyssey, when you measure the AVR's test tone levels, you're measuring what your room is doing to unprocessed audio. Audyssey is designed to correct those inequalities for you.

If you use audio level test tracks from an audio calibration disc (or other external audio signal source), they can be processed by Audyssey. If Audyssey's calibration has done its job correctly, when Audyssey is enabled (and Dyn Vol and Dyn EQ are disabled) those externally-supplied calibration sounds will all produce the same sound level at the Main Listening Position.
post #61339 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

My short answer: no.

Since the AVR's internal test tones are not (and cannot be) processed by Audyssey, when you measure the AVR's test tone levels, you're measuring what your room is doing to unprocessed audio. Audyssey is designed to correct those inequalities for you.

If you use audio level test tracks from an audio calibration disc (or other external audio signal source), they can be processed by Audyssey. If Audyssey's calibration has done its job correctly, when Audyssey is enabled (and Dyn Vol and Dyn EQ are disabled) those externally-supplied calibration sounds will all produce the same sound level at the Main Listening Position.

Selden: Yes, in every case when those calibration sounds were properly recorded. See what Chris K. has to say on this subject in my previous post. smile.gif
post #61340 of 70900
I recently purchased a wireless sub kit, so I hooked it up to my second sub and my 4520 receiver and reran audessey,there was no problem getting the levels to 75-80dbs and both subs came in at -5 which is acceptable,the issue is the wireless subs distance was maxed out and would not let me proceed until it was manually changed, since the wireless sub is now along the back wall and parallel to my listening position and only about 7ft. Away I set the distance at 20ft. Everything seems ok, but I'm feeling I may not be getting the best performance out of my system. I'm wondering if audessey has any tips or recommendations
For setting up two subs when one sub is wireless?
post #61341 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post

I am looking for a suggestion on a tripod stand with a boom for the mic. Can anyone suggest a reasonable priced one? I am tired of moving furniture around for a standard tripod to approximate what I want.

Thanks
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/400079-REG/On_Stage_MS7701B_MS7701B_Euro_Boom_Mic_Stand.html

You will need one of these to attach the Audyssey mic to the stand:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/576064-REG/On_Stage_CM01_CM01_Camera_and.html
post #61342 of 70900
My guess is there is just too much delay in the wireless signal and the receiver runs out of room to compensate. Only option is probably to move the sub as close to main listening position as possible, and that may not even do it.
post #61343 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

My guess is there is just too much delay in the wireless signal and the receiver runs out of room to compensate. Only option is probably to move the sub as close to main listening position as possible, and that may not even do it.


My guess is to hook up that second sub with wires (just temporarely) and re-run Audyssey in order to rule out that case of delay caused by the wireless hook-up. smile.gifsmile.gifsmile.gif
post #61344 of 70900
Thanks guys...
The SPL meter is in about the same position as the Audyssey mic and both are pointing at the ceiling. I'm using a stand for the Audyssey mic but I'm holding the SPL meter; would that matter?
When getting readouts from the SPL my Audyssey settings were Dyn EQ on and all other features off.
I'd expect some difference in the readings but mine were pretty substantial, much more than I would have thought (as much as 6 db).
I do not have any acoustic treatments but I'd think my room is pretty good for a non treated room. It's a rectangle and only has one opening which is covered with super heavy drapes and heavy blackout material behind those. Two walls are exterior so they have 6" of insulation in them and I put 3" of insulation in the interior walls when I built the house to help deaden the sound. The carpet and matting are both very thick and I have some big oil paintings to absorb sound also.
I'll rerun Audyssey again and see what happens.
If it still has such large discrepancies should I change the trim levels so all speakers are about 75bd's which is what I'm doing now or should I leave them at the levels that Audyssey sets?
Edited by DougReim - 4/7/13 at 2:24pm
post #61345 of 70900
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

Thanks guys...
The SPL meter is in about the same position as the Audyssey mic and both are pointing at the ceiling. I'm using a stand for the Audyssey mic but I'm holding the SPL meter; would that matter?
When getting readouts from the SPL my Audyssey settings were Dyn EQ on and all other features off.
I'd expect some difference in the readings but mine were pretty substantial, much more than I would have thought (as much as 6 db).
I do not have any acoustic treatments but I'd think my room is pretty good for a non treated room. It's a rectangle and only has one opening which is covered with super heavy drapes and heavy blackout material behind those. Two walls are exterior so they have 6" of insulation in them and I put 3" of insulation in the interior walls when I built the house to help deaden the sound. The carpet and matting are both very thick and I have some big oil paintings to absorb sound also.
I'll rerun Audyssey again and see what happens.
If it still has such large discrepancies should I change the trim levels so all speakers are about 75bd's which is what I'm doing now or should I leave them at the levels that Audyssey sets?

Two things I'd like to point out:

1. No need to sweat on verifying Audyssey trims with an SPL meter, not worth the effort, especially when handheld, coz it may throw off the measurement results with proximity of your body causing unnecessary reflections to the meter head.

2. I am known here to be notorious for asking members to post a couple of pictures of their room setup so that we can see what's "going on" in the name of HT setup and maybe a few suggestions will make the OPs happier than ever. smile.gif In your case an update of the link in your sig would just do fine! I think you already promised to do so. smile.gif
Edited by mogorf - 4/7/13 at 2:49pm
post #61346 of 70900

I think that all this discussion of whether the test tones should read 75dB after calibration, or not etc, is worthy of a FAQ entry. I'll distill the last several posts into one answer. It's already touched on in e)3 but the response is too brief to be useful in answering the question fully.

post #61347 of 70900
Quote:
In your case an update of the link in your sig would just do fine! I think you already promised to do so.


I just updated the pics in my sig if that helps (it's hard to tell in the photos but my fronts & center are a couple of inches forward of the TV and the wides are a few inches forward of those).......thanks again for all the help.


Quote:
I think that all this discussion of whether the test tones should read 75dB after calibration, or not etc, is worthy of a FAQ entry. I'll distill the last several posts into one answer. It's already touched on in e)3 but the response is too brief to be useful in answering the question fully.

Thanks, that would be useful to others as well.
Edited by DougReim - 4/8/13 at 8:55am
post #61348 of 70900
post #61349 of 70900
Anything I should consider before grabbing a used Denon 1910 off craigslist for $100? I was looking at the Denon 1613 for $279, I mostly just want any type of Audyssey to easily set up my system. I'm on a tight budget so $100 sounds a lot better to me, the only thing I see I will be missing is 3D, I have a 3D TV but no interests in using it.
post #61350 of 70900
You'll also be missing networking but sounds like that's not an issue for you. The 1910 gives you 7 channels (vs 5 on the 1613), more power, and the same version of Audyssey (basic MultEQ). There are a couple of other things missing -- for example the 1910 cannot do an on-screen GUI overlay for the menu graphics, and it doesn't have HDMI 1.4 so no ARC -- but they are minor things that you may or may not miss. On the other hand, the 1910 has a lot more inputs and does analog>digital video conversion which the 1613 lacks (it's basically just an HDMI switchbox).

For $100 it's a great deal, jump on it.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)